Study to consider Borders Railway extension

[Altnabreac]

And probably as many with better BCR than opening the railway to Tweedbank, but there's more to life than BCRs.

Indeed. If we rely purely on BCRs then we probably don't make any investment in rail outside south east England.

Road investment wouldn't get outside the central belt of Scotland.

Ultimately all these things are political decisions, BCRs help to frame which projects get investment but you also need to ensure public support by having a geographical balance to the investment.

The A9 is being dualled because newspapers and politicians have spent 20 years saying it is needed and now that has become self fulfilling.

You could probably find some small schemes with better BCRs but if you want to see major rail investment in Scotland (which I do) then the way to make that happen is not by insisting on slavish adherence in BCRs (which will lead only to minor road widening schemes).

Instead you need to convince newspapers, politicians and the public about the merits of a scheme as a vision of the economic and social benefits as well as making a vaguely positive BCR.

See for example the Transform Scotland lobbying for a fast rail link from Inverkeithing to Perth. This is never going to be at the top of a list of BCRs in Scotland. But with enough lobbying, promotion and explanation plus a BCR of 1.05 it might actually attract Scottish Government support.

 

[InOban]

True, but it says a lot when the commissioners still couldn't get decent BCRs for their pet projects, but they still went ahead.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If you are pragmatic and clever, you can achieve symbolism without blowing hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers cash. I agree that symbolism and to some extent nationalism and devolution is a big factor and understand the effects of that - but that doesn't make the course of action any more fruitful.

If I were Scottish, I would look at a prudent, clever, balanced budget and thing "Yes, this is how we should forge our own way in the world, by doing the best we can with what we already and fighting for more resources.". I would not look at a large road-building project and think how amazing it is that we are embarking on a new Golden Age for Scotland with a cornerstone project like a dual carriageway that signifies how ambitious and prosperous we are at a glance.

I know what you're getting at here but please remember the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party is just as enthusiastic about the A9/A96 dualling/upgrade works. It's not a grand nation-building folly by the SNP, despite what the other posters have alluded to. There is intense public demand for these works, to the extent that any government of any political colour or combination would find it very hard to continue in power if they weren't promising them. Scotland has reached a point where there's not much left to be done roads-wise in the Central Belt. All of the missing links are done, and all that's in the pipeline is fairly small tweaks and improvements like Sheriffhall Roundabout. Now there's little left to do but to work on other projects and the A9/A96 works will benefit the most people of any of them.

 

[47271]

I know what you're getting at here but please remember the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party is just as enthusiastic about the A9/A96 dualling/upgrade works. It's not a grand nation-building folly by the SNP, despite what the other posters have alluded to. There is intense public demand for these works, to the extent that any government of any political colour or combination would find it very hard to continue in power if they weren't promising them. Scotland has reached a point where there's not much left to be done roads-wise in the Central Belt. All of the missing links are done, and all that's in the pipeline is fairly small tweaks and improvements like Sheriffhall Roundabout. Now there's little left to do but to work on other projects and the A9/A96 works will benefit the most people of any of them.

Well, exactly, and I couldn't have explained the A9 and A96 schemes any better myself.

Anyway, the topic under discussion here is whether or not the Borders railway should be extended to Carlisle. Apart from one or two romantics, I think we're all agreed that it's a crackpot scheme and will never happen. Whether the A9 gets dualled or not won't affect that one way or the other.

 

[adrock1976]

A couple of thoughts here:

Any future extension from Tweedbank should ideally be to Hawick, with improved connecting buses to Carlisle and Berwick-upon-Tweed. I believe there are though fares available that involves the bus connection to both locations.

Regarding Langholm, although it is a post town in its own right, is there much local support for a rail link to Carlisle, or are the locals happy to use the bus or other modes of transport to reach Carlisle? I believe part of the track still exists between the Caledonian Railway and Longtown? Is the formation still reasonably intact, or am I right in thinking that part of the original formation through Keilder Forest has been encroached upon?

All in all, I support what somebody mentioned a few pages ago in that the bus links should be improved rather than reinstating the whole route at this moment in time.

 

[InOban]

Well, exactly, and I couldn't have explained the A9 and A96 schemes any better myself.

Anyway, the topic under discussion here is whether or not the Borders railway should be extended to Carlisle. Apart from one or two romantics, I think we're all agreed that it's a crackpot scheme and will never happen. Whether the A9 gets dualled or not won't affect that one way or the other.

The conservatives are just as much in thrall to the road lobbies as the SNP. Nobody has the courage to point out that almost every journey on these new roads begins and ends on local roads in urban areas, generating the pollution which causes illness, premature death and, it seems likely, educational underachievement. By all means build bypasses on the A96, but not the whole road.

 

[najaB]

I cannot see any that result from driving an unnecessary dual carriageway through the Highlands.

I don't often play the 'You don't live here.' card, but improving the A9 is anything but unnecessary.

I'm more than happy to have a sensible discussion over the merits of full v partial dualling, but 'do nothing' was not an option where the A9 is concerned. Traffic congestion on the A9 due to the frequent accidents has a direct and measurable impact on the GDP of Scotland.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Northern end of the Borders line was something of a special case in that it was a missing link that connected straight into the capital city of a devolved nation. Here in Wales there are a surprising number of towns as large as Galashiels within commuting range of Cardiff that are track less (Porthcawl, Llantrisnant, Tredegar,Blackwood, Brynmawr, Abertillery, Pontypool) however they all have lines/stations close-ish to them that can be described as rail heads which the Borders towns didn't. Only Abertillery has any serious sounding reopening suggestions the rest are to be linked in to the "South Wales Metro" by rapid transit bus links.

Getting it extended to Melrose and Hawick should be the main aim oi any future expansion. Hawick is just that bit too far for the connecting bus link from Tweedbank to be acceptable given the Welsh examples above are mostly feeding in to stations less than 5 miles away.

 

[InOban]

I don't often play the 'You don't live here.' card, but improving the A9 is anything but unnecessary.

I'm more than happy to have a sensible discussion over the merits of full v partial dualling, but 'do nothing' was not an option where the A9 is concerned. Traffic congestion on the A9 due to the frequent accidents has a direct and measurable impact on the GDP of Scotland.

I agree that do nothing was not an option. But the introduction of average speed cameras, over considerable opposition, has drastically reduced the number and severity of the accidents. It's amazing what making people drive within the law does!

 

[HSTEd]

Out of interest, do we have any studies on what the composition of traffic on the A9 is?

Are there large numbers of lorries at peak times or is peak traffic dominated by cars, for example?

 

[Altnabreac]

Out of interest, do we have any studies on what the composition of traffic on the A9 is?

Are there large numbers of lorries at peak times or is peak traffic dominated by cars, for example?

There is a very high percentage of lorries in general, especially in the winter and evidence of accidents being due to platooning and driver frustration.

At the high peak times (summer weekends) there are also large numbers of motorhomes and towed caravans that may also be at a differential speed to car users.

There are also large numbers of touring motorcycles in summer.

A large number of non UK drivers as well with some accidents potentially attributable to confusion between alternating single and dual carriageway.

When you combine all those factors with the extremely long diversion routes when there is an accident (100 miles plus if between Calvine and Dalwhinnie) then there was clearly a case for change.

The A9 is actually a pretty good road in general (alignment, sightlines etc), though that may actually contribute to the accident rate by offering potential overtakes that then don't work out.

I initially felt dualling Killiecrankie - Perth and Aviemore - Inverness would be enough with WS2+1 for the central section but I've come round to the logic of a consistent standard all the way from Keir to Tore.

Hopefully Keir, Broxden and Inveralmond roundabouts will also be upgraded and there will be full grade separation and gap closures for Dunblane - Perth and Inverness - Tore as well. These are as important as the dualling as far as I'm concerned to deliver a fully upgraded route.

 

[47271]

Out of interest, do we have any studies on what the composition of traffic on the A9 is?

Are there large numbers of lorries at peak times or is peak traffic dominated by cars, for example?

I live close to the A9 and drive on it regularly. I don't know about studies but I can tell you that peak traffic levels are reached and caused by leisure traffic on summer weekends, and increasingly weekdays too in the past few years. HGVs are in the mix at those times, but their number is small alongside the relentless trundling stream of caravans, campervans and rental cars. Scottish tourism is booming and the main route to the Highlands is incapable of coping with demand.

The negative impact of HGVs was reduced with the introduction of average speed cameras and the relaxation of the limits imposed on these vehicles at the same time. Previously they were subject to a preposterous 40mph on single sections, leading to extraordinary queues known locally as platooning, and the inevitable lunatic overtaking behaviour that was the cause of so many serious accidents. Now they run at 50mph which has made a huge difference.

 

[HSTEd]

Just the relative lack of tunnels between Perth and Inverness, low intermediate population density and relatively long distance might have made it an interesting test bed for a rolling highway. But oh well....

 

[InOban]

In my experience 90% of lorry drivers ignore both the 40 and 50 limits and travel at 60 anyway, making life much easier for everyone else. But the fact remains that the average speed cameras have drastically reduced the accident rate. Indeed, if they had been installed first, the safety case for dualling would probably have disappeared.

 

[najaB]

Just the relative lack of tunnels between Perth and Inverness, low intermediate population density and relatively long distance might have made it an interesting test bed for a rolling highway.

Of course, those factors are offset by the long single-track sections and severe gradients which make it difficult to find additional paths.

 

[47271]

In my experience 90% of lorry drivers ignore both the 40 and 50 limits and travel at 60 anyway, making life much easier for everyone else. But the fact remains that the average speed cameras have drastically reduced the accident rate. Indeed, if they had been installed first, the safety case for dualling would probably have disappeared.

I agree that a lot of them speed, but a few of them kept rigidly to the old 40 limit, Tesco wagons being the most reliable in this respect. A platoon of 74 behind one of these is the longest I've counted a few years ago.

As I understand it the dualling decision was taken long before the final one relating to speed cameras. Locally we reached a tipping point on the cameras and totally came out in support of them in July 2013 following a particularly shocking fatal accident at Ralia. I don't know if they would've prevented it, but it was the moment that everyone agreed that something had to be done as soon as possible.

 

[Starmill]

I don't often play the 'You don't live here.' card, but improving the A9 is anything but unnecessary.

You could claim this about almost any road, anywhere in the country then, if you lived nearby.

There are lots of high-risk roads all across the country where safety improvements are sorely needed, this is just one of them.

 

[najaB]

You could claim this about almost any road, anywhere in the country then, if you lived nearby.

There are lots of high-risk roads all across the country where safety improvements are sorely needed, this is just one of them.

Indeed. However the A9 had the dual factors of being (a) one of the top ten most dangerous roads in the UK; and (b) having probably the greatest economic impact of closures.

There are more dangerous roads, and roads whose closure affects more people but I doubt there is any road that eclipses the A9 in both categories.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Indeed. However the A9 had the dual factors of being (a) one of the top ten most dangerous roads in the UK; and (b) having probably the greatest economic impact of closures.

There are more dangerous roads, and roads whose closure affects more people but I doubt there is any road that eclipses the A9 in both categories.

Did I just stumble onto the Roadsukforum website by accident?

 

[InOban]

Indeed. However the A9 had the dual factors of being (a) one of the top ten most dangerous roads in the UK; and (b) having probably the greatest economic impact of closures.

There are more dangerous roads, and roads whose closure affects more people but I doubt there is any road that eclipses the A9 in both categories.

But as a result of the average speed cameras I don't think it is still in the top ten.

 

[Altnabreac]

Did I just stumble onto the Roadsukforum website by accident?

There is more relevance to discussing roads on this thread than most (although not so much the A9). The study that is quoted by the very first post of this thread is a multi-modal study that will explicitly compare road and rail interventions in the Borders to see which provide the most benefit to the area.

Indeed the STAG appraisal guidelines used by the Scottish Government are very much mode neutral and instead look at the best way to resolve issues whether that be road or rail.

Posters here may complain that Road wins out sometimes but there are examples both ways. For example the Central Scotland corridor study was looking at congestion on the M8 as an issue but when they examined the potential interventions it was Airdrie - Bathgate reopening that came out on top rather than Widening the eastern part of the M8.

So looking at a problem on roads can lead to a rail improvement and vice versa.

 

[najaB]

But as a result of the average speed cameras I don't think it is still in the top ten.

No, the average speed cameras have made a huge difference. It's been a while since the long-familiar 'Two killed in accident on the A9' evening news headline.

 

[HSTEd]

Of course, those factors are offset by the long single-track sections and severe gradients which make it difficult to find additional paths.

Indeed, but passing loops have not become so expensive that more could not have been provided.
And severe gradients are not the problem they once were given our modern traction technology.

Only two relatively short tunnels to rebore Farnsworth style and not many overbridges would even have allowed relatively inexpensive electrification.

 

[Northhighland]

No, the average speed cameras have made a huge difference. It's been a while since the long-familiar 'Two killed in accident on the A9' evening news headline.

I have to agree. Initially I was strongly opposed to the cameras, but have to say they have transformed that journey and driver behaviour has improved significantly. Still a dangerous road, but not at the level it was. Have to admit I was wrong on that issue.

 

[och aye]

I love how threads drift away from the topic of conversation...

 

[route:oxford]

No, the average speed cameras have made a huge difference. It's been a while since the long-familiar 'Two killed in accident on the A9' evening news headline.

Sadly the major accidents are still happening at the Keir Roundabout with Southbound drivers slamming into the back of queueing traffic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-39705343

It irritates me no end when I see the info signs at Dunblane showing inane messages when over the brow of the hill traffic is stationary.

 

[Chrism20]

I was working in Carlisle yesterday and stayed over. On the way back up to Edinburgh I had to go via Selkirk to drop something off at another branch so took the A7.

I think this is the first time I have been south of Hawick on the A7. There really is not a lot between Hawick and Carlisle at all is there?

I think getting the line to Hawick would be great but having actually seen how little life there is in the area I think the money would be better spent elsewhere than running beyond Hawick.

 

[najaB]

There really is not a lot between Hawick and Carlisle at all is there?

No, there's not. Hence the likelihood of extension past Hawick is very low.

 

[Tobbes]

ChrisM,

Yes, it's all very desolately beautiful, but I can't help thinking that Hawick is about the limit for Edinburgh - but I would move heaven and earth to put the station on the south side of the river on the carpark to preserve the option of pushing south at more marginal cost. Applying Altanabreac's famous reopening rules. I've often wondered if the more useful extension would be Gala - Kelso - Berwick and thence to Newcastle.

I've got no idea what the Gala - Newcastle time would be in something like a 185, though. Anyone any ideas?

 

[Chrism20]

No, there's not. Hence the likelihood of extension past Hawick is very low.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me but I don't think the money should even be spent at looking beyond Hawick.

What also surprised me though was the lack of traffic on the A7 itself between Carlisle and Hawick. I know it was 10am on a Wednesday morning so it was hardly peak time but I don't think I saw twenty other vehicles moving between Carlisle and just outside Hawick.