Study to consider Borders Railway extension

[BigCj34]

Well, here's a little map anyway:

View attachment 35191

EDIT: Oops, Selkirk is missing. Imagine it north of Ashkirk please

If it was ever to go east to Berwick, then surely Jedburgh is too big of a settlement to ignore.

 

[InOban]

If it was ever to go east to Berwick, then surely Jedburgh is too big of a settlement to ignore.

I think you need to look at an os map. You will see that the only way south from Jedburgh would involve many miles of tunnel under Carter Bar.

 

[BigCj34]

I think you need to look at an os map. You will see that the only way south from Jedburgh would involve many miles of tunnel under Carter Bar.

I never suggested going south from Jedburgh. If there ever was to be a loop going through Kelso and Coldstream, then it would make sense to reinstate the branch from Jedburgh.

 

[InOban]

A 12 mile branch? There are 10 buses a day during the week.

 

[Altnabreac]

Possible extension options from Tweedbank with populations for reference

Hawick Extension:
Melrose 2,300
Newtown St Boswells 1,300
St Boswells 1,400
Hawick 14,100
Total 19,100

Tweedmouth extension:
Kelso 5,600
Coldstream 1,900
Total 7,500

Reston extension:
Earlston 1,800
Greenlaw 600
Duns 2,700
Chirnside 1,400
Total 6,500

Selkirk 5,700

Jedburgh 4,000

Langholm 2,300

Hawick - Carlisle:
Newcastleton 800

It really couldn't be any clearer. Tweedbank - Hawick is the only possible viable option for an extension.

 

[clc]

Possible extension options from Tweedbank with populations for reference

Hawick Extension:
Melrose 2,300
Newtown St Boswells 1,300
St Boswells 1,400
Hawick 14,100
Total 19,100

Tweedmouth extension:
Kelso 5,600
Coldstream 1,900
Total 7,500

Reston extension:
Earlston 1,800
Greenlaw 600
Duns 2,700
Chirnside 1,400
Total 6,500

Selkirk 5,700

Jedburgh 4,000

Langholm 2,300

Hawick - Carlisle:
Newcastleton 800

It really couldn't be any clearer. Tweedbank - Hawick is the only possible viable option for an extension.

Driving time to the stations is also relevant:-

Jedburgh to St Boswells - 15 mins
Earlston to Newton St Boswells - 10 mins
Kelso to St Boswells - 18 mins
Selkirk to Tweedbank - 12 mins

A sizeable population would be able to park and ride and still have a reasonable commuting time to Edinburgh.

 

[XDM]

Postings 275 & 276. Good common sense from both posters.
It is sad but true that Hawick is well worth going for, but it will be the end of the line.

 

[oldman]

Looking at the official projections for Scotland's population to 2039, the working age population of the Borders is projected to fall by 7%, whereas Midlothian's is due to increase by 22%,Edinburgh City's by 18% and East Lothian's by 11%.

It seems to me that rather than worrying about opening country branch lines, we should be investing in transport for the masses in and around the city, which is where the employment is. Which may well be more about light rail than proper trains.

 

[najaB]

It seems to me that rather than worrying about opening country branch lines, we should be investing in transport for the masses in and around the city, which is where the employment is. Which may well be more about light rail than proper trains.

You mean more trams for Edinburgh? (Runs and hides)

 

[NotATrainspott]

Looking at the official projections for Scotland's population to 2039, the working age population of the Borders is projected to fall by 7%, whereas Midlothian's is due to increase by 22%,Edinburgh City's by 18% and East Lothian's by 11%.

It seems to me that rather than worrying about opening country branch lines, we should be investing in transport for the masses in and around the city, which is where the employment is. Which may well be more about light rail than proper trains.

You aren't wrong. Part of the justification for the Borders Railway was though that it would make the region more viable for commuters. You only need a few hundred well-heeled commuters in and around Galashiels to help keep the economy chugging.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Well, here's a little map anyway:

View attachment 35191

EDIT: Oops, Selkirk is missing. Imagine it north of Ashkirk please

So that's a 6km tunnel south from Selkirk, 1km or so of surface line at Ashkirk followed by an 8km tunnel emerging at Hawick.

Why make your own little maps? If you'd looked at the maps the Ordnance Survey produce, paying particular attention to contour lines, you could see your idea is a non-starter.

 

[najaB]

If you'd looked at the maps the Ordnance Survey produce, paying particular attention to contour lines, you could see your idea is a non-starter.

All those lines spoil the crayon marks.

 

[JohnR]

You aren't wrong. Part of the justification for the Borders Railway was though that it would make the region more viable for commuters. You only need a few hundred well-heeled commuters in and around Galashiels to help keep the economy chugging.

Exactly. A pal of mine has just moved to Gala after living in a flat in Edinburgh. He's planning on commuting into work on the Railway. Apparently he's not the only new resident in the village.

 

[oldman]

You mean more trams for Edinburgh? (Runs and hides)

I was thinking about trams in tunnels under the centre and on the surface elsewhere. Influenced by spending the last few days in Stuttgart (population 600k) where you can get from one side of town to the other in 30 minutes. Not the British way of course, and not likely to be the Scottish way either.

Exactly. A pal of mine has just moved to Gala after living in a flat in Edinburgh. He's planning on commuting into work on the Railway. Apparently he's not the only new resident in the village.

Gala and the northern Borders OK, though personally I don't like the suburbanisation of the countryside - but not I think Hawick, another 45 minutes commute every day.

 

[A0wen]

All those lines spoil the crayon marks.

This forum so needs a 'like' button.

You're brave though - you'll have various posters along very soon to heap ridicule on your head for dissing the ideas of crayonistas.......

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I was thinking about trams in tunnels under the centre and on the surface elsewhere. Influenced by spending the last few days in Stuttgart (population 600k) where you can get from one side of town to the other in 30 minutes. Not the British way of course, and not likely to be the Scottish way either.



Gala and the northern Borders OK, though personally I don't like the suburbanisation of the countryside - but not I think Hawick, another 45 minutes commute every day.

It depends what sort of quality of life you want.

Some people crave the city life, with all of the pubs, clubs etc. On the other hand if you're like me and can't stand the city or any of its environs or the things that it has and love living in the countryside, then the move to Galashiels may well be the perfect move for them and the 45' commute into Edinburgh city centre is a price worth paying.

Also I'd have thought they'd have made a substantial profit on their city dwelling and the move to the Galashiels area would leave them with a nice amount of surplus in the bank.

Any further developments & expansion/extension of the line either towards Berwick Upon Tweed or Carlisle could prove an even greater temptation to move even slightly further out.

 

[8H]

This forum so needs a 'like' button.

You're brave though - you'll have various posters along very soon to heap ridicule on your head for dissing the ideas of crayonistas.......

Oh dear another GRIPPER bans broad discussion

 

[oldman]

On the other hand if you're like me and can't stand the city or any of its environs or the things that it has and love living in the countryside, then the move to Galashiels may well be the perfect move for them and the 45' commute into Edinburgh city centre is a price worth paying.

I maybe didn't express myself clearly. The 45 minutes a day I mentioned is my estimated add-on for Hawick to the existing roughly 2 hours for Tweedbank. If folk think nearly 2.5 hours a day plus on a 158 makes for a good work-life balance, so be it, but I'd rather not subsidise them.

My point was that if you have money to invest in South-East Scotland's transport infrastructure, the area in and close to the city should be the priority.

 

[JohnR]

It depends what sort of quality of life you want.

Some people crave the city life, with all of the pubs, clubs etc. On the other hand if you're like me and can't stand the city or any of its environs or the things that it has and love living in the countryside, then the move to Galashiels may well be the perfect move for them and the 45' commute into Edinburgh city centre is a price worth paying.

Also I'd have thought they'd have made a substantial profit on their city dwelling and the move to the Galashiels area would leave them with a nice amount of surplus in the bank.

Any further developments & expansion/extension of the line either towards Berwick Upon Tweed or Carlisle could prove an even greater temptation to move even slightly further out.

I think its more a case of selling a tenement flat in Edinburgh and getting a cottage with a nice garden in Gala.

 

[fegguk]

I maybe didn't express myself clearly. The 45 minutes a day I mentioned is my estimated add-on for Hawick to the existing roughly 2 hours for Tweedbank. If folk think nearly 2.5 hours a day plus on a 158 makes for a good work-life balance, so be it, but I'd rather not subsidise them.

My point was that if you have money to invest in South-East Scotland's transport infrastructure, the area in and close to the city should be the priority.

Prehaps they would rather not subsidise yours. If the line was extended to Hawick if would enable rail travel within the Borders not just to Edinburgh. The bit between Hawick and Gala was the busiest section of the route before closure.

 

[fegguk]

This forum so needs a 'like' button.

You're brave though - you'll have various posters along very soon to heap ridicule on your head for dissing the ideas of crayonistas.......

I would have thought it was better to try to educate people rather than denigrating them.

 

[railjock]

The bit between Hawick and Gala was the busiest section of the route before closure.

I've no idea if that is true or not. However, in those days both were thriving centres of employment for the textile industry and each would have many similar skilled textile workers. Not any more unfortunately.

 

[FQTV]

Possible extension options from Tweedbank with populations for reference

Hawick Extension:
Melrose 2,300
Newtown St Boswells 1,300
St Boswells 1,400
Hawick 14,100
Total 19,100

Tweedmouth extension:
Kelso 5,600
Coldstream 1,900
Total 7,500

Reston extension:
Earlston 1,800
Greenlaw 600
Duns 2,700
Chirnside 1,400
Total 6,500

Selkirk 5,700

Jedburgh 4,000

Langholm 2,300

Hawick - Carlisle:
Newcastleton 800

It really couldn't be any clearer. Tweedbank - Hawick is the only possible viable option for an extension.

Does anyone have up-to-date population figures for the thirty-odd miles between
Beussingue and Castle Hill?

 

[Altnabreac]

Does anyone have up-to-date population figures for the thirty-odd miles between
Beussingue and Castle Hill?

Well it's similar, though probably more people on the ferries above Le Shuttle than the moors above Whitrope and Newcastleton.

But you make an excellent point. Connecting a town of 15,000 to a city of 70,000 where census data shows less than 50 people commute between the two is exactly analogous to connecting two cities of 9 million apiece.

And providing an alternative slow diesel secondary route to an existing high speed electrified route will be very similar to the effect of replacing a slow ferry, train and bus combination with a new direct high speed line.

Excellent, relevant points and not a complete nonsense argument. Well done.

 

[FQTV]

Well it's similar, though probably more people on the ferries above Le Shuttle than the moors above Whitrope and Newcastleton.

But you make an excellent point. Connecting a town of 15,000 to a city of 70,000 where census data shows less than 50 people commute between the two is exactly analogous to connecting two cities of 9 million apiece.

And providing an alternative slow diesel secondary route to an existing high speed electrified route will be very similar to the effect of replacing a slow ferry, train and bus combination with a new direct high speed line.

Excellent, relevant points and not a complete nonsense argument. Well done.

I rather fear that my point may have been missed......

 

[Bald Rick]

But you make an excellent point. Connecting a town of 15,000 to a city of 70,000 where census data shows less than 50 people commute between the two is exactly analogous to connecting two cities of 9 million apiece.

... also almost exactly the same as providing the first fixed infrastructure link between the 2nd and 3rd largest economies in Europe, for the world's busiest international city to city travel pair, across the world's busiest sea lane.

I can think of a couple of minor differences to the Borders line, but relatively trivial.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

If folk think nearly 2.5 hours a day plus on a 158 makes for a good work-life balance, so be it, but I'd rather not subsidise them.

Anyone who is unemployed and claiming benefits is required to seek any work that can be reached in 90 minutes by public transport. This currently puts Edinburgh (and Carlisle) out of reach for any Hawick jobseekers, so you're subsidising them anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anyone who is unemployed and claiming benefits is required to seek any work that can be reached in 90 minutes by public transport. This currently puts Edinburgh (and Carlisle) out of reach for any Hawick jobseekers, so you're subsidising them anyway.

This may seem rather harsh, but it would be somewhat cheaper to subside the unemployed of Hawick through benefits than to drop several hundred million quid on a railway and provide operating subsidy in perpetuity.

It would almost certainly be cheaper for Scotland to provide every unemployed person in Hawick with their own free Tesla S to drive to work than build a railway. Rather better for the local environment too.

 

[route:oxford]

Wouldn't a Tweedmouth extension be on the wrong side of the Border in places and end up failing due to disagreements over funding at the first hurdle?

There is certainly potential for a tourist friendly circular route though - so no need for a steam train to reverse.

 

[Altnabreac]

Wouldn't a Tweedmouth extension be on the wrong side of the Border in places and end up failing due to disagreements over funding at the first hurdle?

There is certainly potential for a tourist friendly circular route though - so no need for a steam train to reverse.

A Tweedmouth extension would need a Hybrid Bill process at Westminster as it would be a cross border route, several hundred million pounds in funding from Westminster and would not link to the main local centre of Berwick, as it is historically a south facing chord there so would either need a new station in Tweedmouth or it would use existing limited capacity between Newcastle and Berwick to run direct Newcastle - Coldstream trains.

In exchange the UK treasury would gain from the many benefits of providing a fast service to Newcastle from the villages of Norham (600 population) and Cornhill on Tweed (400 population).

Another fantastic business case there.