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Study to consider Borders Railway extension

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DynamicSpirit

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I never said that I supported this reopening - only that it would be rather useless to have a single track line trailing through Teviotdale. There's no point in that because it's a compromise that no-one will like; it would be a pretty weak decision not to double it properly because you were scared of a backlash - otherwise, why build it in the first place?

I don't think it's correct to say that a single-track line is rather useless. Sure, it probably will lead to a more fragile timetable, and may mean that the possible frequency is limited, but plenty of places around the UK (including, ironically, the half-hourly service on the line to Tweedback) amply demonstrate that it's possible to run quite a good timetable on a single-track line.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Good point - but what would probably help would be, where a single line is being built on a former double track formation, to place the line at one side rather than in the middle so that if / when extra loops or redoubling become necessary they don't have to slew the existing track over.

I kinda agree. But I suspect that often there may be a good reason for not placing the single line to the side: Most obviously, putting it in the centre may make it easier/cheaper to ensure that line is supported on either side by earthworks that meet modern standards - because it means the line is further away from any deterioration that might have happened along the edge of the previous trackbed. And of course any cost saving will contribute to making building the line look more viable.
 

route:oxford

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Unfortunately, in the 21st century, literally everything is down to money. Had today's attitudes prevailed in Victorian times then we would have no libraries, swimming pools and so on.

Forget Victorian, weren't most libraries in Scotland built through philanthropy in Edwardian times?

Aberdeen
Airdrie
Annan
Arbroath
Ayr
Banff
Bellie
Bo'ness
Bonnyrigg
Burntisland
Castle Douglas
Clydebank
Coatbridge
Corstorphine
Cromarty
Dingwall
Dornoch
Drumoak
Dumbarton
Dumfries
Dundee
Dunfermline
Dyce
Edinburgh
Elgin
Falkirk
Fraserburgh
Glasgow
Grangemouth
Greenock
Hamilton
Hawick
Innerleithen
Inverness
Inverurie
Jedburgh
Kelso
Kinross
Kirkwall
Larbert
Lockerbie
Lossiemouth
Maybole
Montrose
Motherwell
Peterhead
Prestonpans
Rutherglen
Stirling
Stornaway
Tain
Tarves
Thurso
Torryburn
West Calder
Wick

Were all built thanks to the philanthropy of Andrew Carnegie
 

snowball

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I kinda agree. But I suspect that often there may be a good reason for not placing the single line to the side: Most obviously, putting it in the centre may make it easier/cheaper to ensure that line is supported on either side by earthworks that meet modern standards - because it means the line is further away from any deterioration that might have happened along the edge of the previous trackbed. And of course any cost saving will contribute to making building the line look more viable.

Also the existing Borders line was placed centrally under arched bridges to allow future electrification.
 

backontrack

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I don't think it's correct to say that a single-track line is rather useless. Sure, it probably will lead to a more fragile timetable, and may mean that the possible frequency is limited, but plenty of places around the UK (including, ironically, the half-hourly service on the line to Tweedback) amply demonstrate that it's possible to run quite a good timetable on a single-track line.
Delays are already building up though, and these have meant that growth has been restricted on the Midlothian stations. Gorebridge and Eskbank have not picked up enough commuter traffic as they possibly should have.
 

edwin_m

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I kinda agree. But I suspect that often there may be a good reason for not placing the single line to the side: Most obviously, putting it in the centre may make it easier/cheaper to ensure that line is supported on either side by earthworks that meet modern standards - because it means the line is further away from any deterioration that might have happened along the edge of the previous trackbed. And of course any cost saving will contribute to making building the line look more viable.
It's also relatively easy to shift the single track over to one side later, unless someone has put something in the way. What is harder to accept is something like the new overbridges on the existing Borders route which were constructed with a span only large enough for single line. Making them good for double would have cost very little extra, and far less than the replacements that will be needed if doubling happens now.
 

tomatwark

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Gorebridge and Eskbank have not picked up enough commuter traffic as they possibly should have.

I have always wondered why they bothered with Eskbank, as it is out of the way, you have to head south to get to it, so for most people it will be a bus ride or drive.

There is a pretty good bus service into Edinburgh from there anyway.

If they had put it at the original location it would have attracted more foot traffic as there are a lot more houses near by.
 

JohnR

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I have always wondered why they bothered with Eskbank, as it is out of the way, you have to head south to get to it, so for most people it will be a bus ride or drive.

There is a pretty good bus service into Edinburgh from there anyway.

If they had put it at the original location it would have attracted more foot traffic as there are a lot more houses near by.

Eskbank had 274,000 passengers in the year 16/17. Perhaps the poor reliability has impacted on the expected commuter traffic - its a market thats particularly sensitive to that. A leisure traveller wont be as discomforted by having to wait an extra 30 minutes. A commuter will.
 

tago

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To get to it from many places you’ve got to fight your way through the congested City Bypass, so its catchment is reduced to the Dalkeith area which has a very good bus service, as others have noted.

Inside the bypass, though, the Shawfair development is really gathering pace and it will be interesting to see how quickly traffic there picks up.
 

backontrack

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A leisure traveller wont be as discomforted by having to wait an extra 30 minutes. A commuter will.
Which explains why Newtongrange, right next to the Scottish National Mining Museum, has done a bit better than the others.
 

railjock

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I have always wondered why they bothered with Eskbank, as it is out of the way, you have to head south to get to it, so for most people it will be a bus ride or drive.

There is a pretty good bus service into Edinburgh from there anyway.

If they had put it at the original location it would have attracted more foot traffic as there are a lot more houses near by.
I think the current location attracts more passengers than the old one would habe. It’s primarily a park and ride for the surrounding area.
 

mark-h

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Eskbank is still the busiest Midlothian station.

It is the first station on the line that open (return within one month rather than same day) off peak tickets to Glasgow can be purchesed from (£18.10 vs £32.20 for 2 singles).
 

iain-j

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It is the first station on the line that open (return within one month rather than same day) off peak tickets to Glasgow can be purchesed from (£18.10 vs £32.20 for 2 singles).
Does anyone know why that is? As in why is Eskbank the first station that this becomes available? Why not all stations on the line?
 

Altfish

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Does anyone know why that is? As in why is Eskbank the first station that this becomes available? Why not all stations on the line?
Scotrail did seem to have expensive prices for singles.
I travelled from Annan to Carlisle, one way, about 2-years ago, I asked for a single and the guard said something like, "You don't want a single, returns are cheaper" and sold me a return.
I don't know if that is still the case.
 

route101

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Singles are often like 5p cheaper . Infact when i was going from Gala to Glasgow last week i got a return , i can use the return portion at somepoint in the next month. Glasgow to Eskbank would be useful for people wanting a Glasgow/ Edinburgh ticket valid for a month .
 

JohnR

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All very interesting, but its the report on future options that interests me....
 

NSEFAN

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Agreed but a 9.5% growth last year must surely assist the case for any extensions of the line.
Not necessarily. If the existing parts of the route generate too much growth, there won't be any room to fit additional passengers onto the existing trains from a new extension. Indeed, more carriages are already needed to handle the demand, but these will add to the operating costs and reduce the BCR.
 

fegguk

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Not necessarily. If the existing parts of the route generate too much growth, there won't be any room to fit additional passengers onto the existing trains from a new extension. Indeed, more carriages are already needed to handle the demand, but these will add to the operating costs and reduce the BCR.
This would be a fairly bizarre out come given that the line was built to be able to operate 6 car trains and mostly 2 and 3 car trains run at present. Though I suppose trying to fill 4-6 car train for the whole length of the route to Carlisle would be more difficult than 2-3 car units from Tweedbank or Hawick to Edinburgh.
 

JohnR

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This would be a fairly bizarre out come given that the line was built to be able to operate 6 car trains and mostly 2 and 3 car trains run at present. Though I suppose trying to fill 4-6 car train for the whole length of the route to Carlisle would be more difficult than 2-3 car units from Tweedbank or Hawick to Edinburgh.

It may have been built to accomodate 6-car trains, that doesnt mean to say it would be more economic to lease twice as many trains to carry the same number of passengers.

I've only skimmed through the report, so may have missed it, but I didnt see any studies done on people NOT using the railway because of reliability or overcrowding.
 

InOban

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I've also skimmed it, but I think the growth is coming from the Midlothian stations, end to end journeys have if anything fallen once the tourist novelty market had been satisfied.
 

edwin_m

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I also skimmed it and while it states the objectives for the route are being met, I didn't see any comparisons of actual with forecast numbers.
 

Altnabreac

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Some interesting facts and figures in the report.

Overall it confirms a lot of what we know. Midlothian usage is suppressed mainly by the presence of an excellent bus service that is either cheaper or free for concessionary travel users. Overcrowding and ability to get a seat is a lesser factor at Midlothian stations but is still an issue.

Eskbank has been the biggest growth station both as an origin station but also as a destination station probably reflecting both the college travel and the return ticket sales from west Scotland. However the growth is impressive at Eskbank and certainly looks real.

Although numbers have fallen for destination sales at Tweedbank and Gala reflecting the wearing off the novelty factor they have remained steady with a slight increase at Gala and Tweedbank as an origin. Given there will have been plenty of novelty sales from inside the Borders in year 1 this probably masks a simultaneously fall in novelty sales and increase in commuting / regular leisure sales for northbound travel.

The origin station catchment figures on page 28 are also really interesting. Shows really good usage of Tweedbank from users in Hawick, Selkirk, St Boswells, Kelso, Earlston and Jedburgh. Potentially positive news for an extension as it shows there is demand from beyond the central Borders but also that there may be an element of extraction from Tweedbank numbers by any extension.

Also some very interesting responses to the questions around moving house and changing workplace as a result of the reopening. This is a very important factor that is not well captured in existing business case development and results showed some significant numbers for people whose house move and job decisions had been influenced by the presence of the railway. About 20% of users had moved and a similar number had changed jobs. Of those around 50% had been influenced in their job / house choice by the railway so it shows that potentially around 20% of the users are people who would not have been in their current / house or job without the railway line rather than it just being about Modal shift for those already living in the area / commuting along the route.

Modal shift was very important though and there are some excellent numbers there about the number of commuters attracted directly from driving the full distance of the route (64%) with only a smaller number being extracted from bus (25%) / car share (5%) etc

Overall I think it's certainly good news for Levenmouth who should see these numbers boosting their campaign. I'm still reasonably sure that a Hawick extension will be a pretty marginal business case but based on the numbers from this report I think it would generate some reasonable passenger numbers albeit almost certainly not covering the additional costs. With the extraction taken into account it looks like a 2tph 6 car service would be quite sufficient for even an extended line.
 

och aye

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Does anyone know when Transport Scotland will announce/confirm CP6 projects?
 

mcmad

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I thought it was going to be a steady drip of projects rather than the announcements per CP?
 

och aye

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https://www.thesouthernreporter.co....on-bid-blow-need-not-be-end-of-road-1-4699150

Feared Borders Railway extension bid blow need not be end of road

Fears that a forthcoming report for Transport Scotland will advise against extending the Borders Railway south of Tweedbank have been mitigated by a reassurance that a second opinion is set to be sought in any event.

A transport corridors study by consultant Jacobs UK assessing the viability of extending the 30-mile track by almost 70 miles into England is due to be published later this month, and unconfirmed reports suggest that it will give any such plans the thumbs-down.

However, all hope would not be lost for campaigners calling for the recreation of the old Waverley Route from Edinburgh to Carlisle even in that case as the UK Government plans to have a feasibility study of its own carried out too.

That glimmer of hope was offered by the Leader of the House of Commons, Andrea Leadsom, at a business of the house session at Westminster today, March 1, in response to a question from Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk MP John Lamont.

 
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