Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[John S2]

Mod Note: discussion on this topic has been split into 3 threads:

• For discussion on alternative route proposals, please use Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route
• For discussion on the impact of 'trapped' trains, please use Train sets trapped in Devon and Cornwall
• For ticketing matters, please use FGW ticket relaxations due to line closure through Dawlish?

This sort of issue is very rare, though.

This type of event is certain to increase in frequency due to sea level rise - something I have mentioned previously on this forum. This is why planning should start now for an electrified bypass inland.
It is disappointing [but predictable] that the nettle has not yet been grasped.

 

[MarkyT]

Perhaps something like this is required -

http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

New route about 8km or 5 miles shorter, & faster with no intermediate stationsOld route retained for local services, & partially singled to remove outer
platform at Dawlish station, improve clearance through tunnels for freight &
make space for better sea & cliff defences

 

[341o2]

and to mention that once upon a time there was Exeter - Okehampton - Plymouth. Clousure in 1968 was opposed for this reason that in the event of the sea wall being breached at Dawlish, Cornwall and West Devon would not be cut off from the rest of the rail network
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This type of event is certain to increase in frequency due to sea level rise - something I have mentioned previously on this forum. This is why planning should start now for an electrified bypass inland.
It is disappointing [but predictable] that the nettle has not yet been grasped.

re my post. There seems a strong possibility that Bere Alston - Tavistock will be reopened and it would be cheaper to reinstate the section to Okehampton rather than build an entirely new line

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Perhaps something like this is required -

http://www.townend.me/files/southdevon.pdf

Reopening the LSWR via Okehampton would be a good move in the short term.
A Dawlish diversion would bring huge benefits to Devon & Cornwall.

Cost of keeping alternative routes open, versus the cost of these closures as well as loss of business in Devon and Cornwall.

Thanks for the pictures Furrball - serious damage, could be a long closure.

 

[charlee]

Why can't the government actually see the need to build a dawlish avoiding line now! This is becoming a regular occurrence. We are now cut off here in Plymouth, Devon and Cornwall.

 

[Goatboy]

Why can't the government actually see the need to build a dawlish avoiding line now! This is becoming a regular occurrence. We are now cut off here in Plymouth, Devon and Cornwall.

This is absolutely not a regular occurance - before now damage to this area has been mostly minor and limited in scope to landslips etc. Nothing on this scale has happened for quite some time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why can't the government actually see the need to build a dawlish avoiding line now! This is becoming a regular occurrence. We are now cut off here in Plymouth, Devon and Cornwall.

Bit dramatic. We are not 'cut off', we still have a dual carriageway route linking Plymouth/Newton Abbot and Cornwall with the M5. Journey time on a replacement coach service whilst this is fixed between Plymouth and Taunton is actually LOWER than it would be on the train.

If they get some decent coach schedules sorted the impact on long distance journey times during repair work could potentially be nil.

 

[dannypye9999]

I would have thought that because this line runs for several miles along the coast between Exeter and Newton Abbot that a diversionary route would have been built by now. Every year or so this route suffers some degree of bad weather which results in the line having to shut. They should have known this years ago and its not exactly rocket science to know that having a train line running on the beach will cause problems.

 

[yorksrob]

Reopening the LSWR via Okehampton would be a good move in the short term.

Indeed. Hopefully the powers that be will see this as a wake-up call and continue building when they reach Tavistock. If Meldon viaduct needs to be replaced, so be it.

 

[plymothian]

This is absolutely not a regular occurance - before now damage to this area has been mostly minor and limited in scope to landslips etc. Nothing on this scale has happened for quite some time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Bit dramatic. We are not 'cut off', we still have a dual carriageway route linking Plymouth/Newton Abbot and Cornwall with the M5. Journey time on a replacement coach service whilst this is fixed between Plymouth and Taunton is actually LOWER than it would be on the train.

If they get some decent coach schedules sorted the impact on long distance journey times during repair work could potentially be nil.

Yes, we have the A38/380 (and the A30 from Cornwall), BUT these are now the sole access to the far South West. Which makes them vulnerable should any storm damage/accident/snow happen.

 

[Drsatan]

Indeed. Hopefully the powers that be will see this as a wake-up call and continue building when they reach Tavistock. If Meldon viaduct needs to be replaced, so be it.

A more likely plan would be to look at the GWR's plans in 1936 to build a diversionary route between Exminster and Teignmouth. I believe this would be cheaper than rebuilding Meldon viaduct, and would provide a more direct route between Exeter and Plymouth.

 

[HowardGWR]

Indeed. Hopefully the powers that be will see this as a wake-up call and continue building when they reach Tavistock. If Meldon viaduct needs to be replaced, so be it.

Yes, it's a pity we still don't have our Regional Assembly, where strong representations were made on this issue a decade ago.

 

[L&Y Robert]

and to mention that once upon a time there was Exeter - Okehampton - Plymouth. Clousure in 1968 was opposed for this reason that in the event of the sea wall being breached at Dawlish, Cornwall and West Devon would not be cut off from the rest of the rail network

re my post. There seems a strong possibility that Bere Alston - Tavistock will be reopened and it would be cheaper to reinstate the section to Okehampton rather than build an entirely new line

And what's the condition of these routes today? Still there, but derelict (like Calvert to Bletchley), route still there but overgrown (like, say, Skipton to Colne), or only partly there but built on in places. I travel down to Penzance once in a while, and whilst this bit along the beach (as someone here called it) is very spectacular, it always looks very vulnerable, especially to a land-lubber like me. (We northerners carve our railways out of the solid inland hills far from the sea and get quite nervous if we see ripples on the canal, even).

 

[Lockwood]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72765000/jpg/_72765986_72763919.jpg

"Patrick Hallgate from Network Rail, who is assessing the damage at Dawlish, said it could take between four and six weeks to fix the line, which is the main rail link between Devon and Cornwall"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26042990

 

[LewFinnis]

The ghost of Dr Beeching coming back to haunt the railways. All alternative routes closed in the 60s!

 

[The Planner]

Why is Beeching trotted out as the trump card all the time? In the 46 years since the alternative route closed, how many 4-6 week or significant blockages have there been at Dawlish?

 

[Clip]

Why is Beeching trotted out as the trump card all the time? In the 46 years since the alternative route closed, how many 4-6 week or significant blockages have there been at Dawlish?

Please Sir, Please Sir, Is it less than the number of fingers I have on one hand?

 

[jopsuk]

I've seen some suggesting taking the line direct from Newton Abbot to Exeter- but that would likely be steep, and whatever bits of the line weren't in tunnels would be on viaducts. That's expensive...

 

[brad465]

Glad my Cornwall holiday was last October and not next week (or beyond).

Yes re-opening the Okehampton line connection to the Gunnislake branch again could and should now pick up a high pace, as an option for diversions.

 

[HSTEd]

I've seen some suggesting taking the line direct from Newton Abbot to Exeter- but that would likely be steep, and whatever bits of the line weren't in tunnels would be on viaducts. That's expensive...

If we are doing that you might as well forget Newton Abbot and proceed directly from just north of Exeter station to Plymouth, with a triangle at Exeter.

 

[Goatboy]

If we are doing that you might as well forget Newton Abbot and proceed directly from just north of Exeter station to Plymouth, with a triangle at Exeter.

Good luck with the decades of environmental wrangling that result in the idea of building literally anything in Dartmoor National Park

 

[yorksrob]

Why is Beeching trotted out as the trump card all the time? In the 46 years since the alternative route closed, how many 4-6 week or significant blockages have there been at Dawlish?

I know the tide of pro-Beeching revisionism is strong at the moment, but it is perfectly relevant to point out that closing the only alternative route to Plymouth and Cornwall might just have a teeny weeny bit to do with the predicament in which we find ourselves today.

And we may not have had many six week blockades, but the need for a diversionary route must have been recognised pre Beeching, otherwise why were Western crews trained on the Southern route and visa versa.

 

[Goatboy]

I know the tide of pro-Beeching revisionism is strong at the moment, but it is perfectly relevant to point out that closing the only alternative route to Plymouth and Cornwall might just have a teeny weeny bit to do with the predicament in which we find ourselves today.

Quite but this is the first major problem to affect this route since the Beeching days. Until now it's been limited to the odd landslip fixed within days.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

With no plans to divert the line, the full reinstatement will have to be putting in a structure good for another 50+ years.
Hopefully they can reinstate the up line before too long.
As to the cost, looks like a very expensive undertaking.

Diversion through Dartmoor National Park? - the wrangling could go on into the next century! Cheaper to tunnel it.
Probably need to keep South of the A38.

 

[30907]

And we may not have had many six week blockades, but the need for a diversionary route must have been recognised pre Beeching, otherwise why were Western crews trained on the Southern route and visa versa.

I am pretty sure this started in WW2 when it wasn't the weather that was the problem (!) - and also when there was a huge amount of military traffic to worry about. And even in emergency conditions Meldon Viaduct was heavily restricted weight-wise (GW 43xx/SR N and WC IIRC).

Much though I would like to see the Southern route re-opene, I wonder how much of the passenger traffic (by numbers, rather than passenger-km or revenue) on a typical winter weekday would benefit? It's a genuine question.

And yes, I know this discussion is a bit OT

 

[kwrail]

Rising sea levels, global waming etc etc mean that the problems at Dawlish were always likely to happen sooner or later.
It will be more straightforward to reinstate the line from Okehampton to Bere Alston on the old LSWR route than it would ever be to find a diversionary route. Similar to reinstating the Waverley line in the borders of Scotland. My guess is that it will have to happen at some point.
Bit of forethought in the sixties and the alternative route would still be in place. Most of the Beeching cuts were correct (in my view), but a few like this one were clearly a mistake.

 

[geoffk]

Yes I agree the Okehampton line should be reopened - it should never have closed as the Dawlish route has always been vulnerable to the weather, but never as much as last night. At least there are moves to reopen north to Tavistock.

But even if reopened this would be effectively a single track branch line requiring two reversals for all trains going beyond Plymouth.

Maybe the more radical option of a completely new inland route between Exeter and Newton Abbot is the one Network Rail should be looking at.

 

[poshfan]

Phil Marsh (from Railway Magazine) has just been on the BBC news and was advocating reinstatement of the Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton line, he reckons it would cost about £250 million for the section from Tavistock to Okehampton, apparently based on what the Waverley line is costing, and that does not include the cost of Bere Alston to Tavistock which he was assuming would go ahead anyway, and he also said nothing about the costs of any upgrade works that would be needed between Okehamption and Exeter.

 

[yorksrob]

I am pretty sure this started in WW2 when it wasn't the weather that was the problem (!) - and also when there was a huge amount of military traffic to worry about. And even in emergency conditions Meldon Viaduct was heavily restricted weight-wise (GW 43xx/SR N and WC IIRC).

Maybe so, but the fact that the arrangement continued afterwards surely shows that it had some merit (not to mention the fact that before WW2 The Southern and Great Western were fierce rivals and might not have been particularly willing bedfellows anyway)

Much though I would like to see the Southern route re-opene, I wonder how much of the passenger traffic (by numbers, rather than passenger-km or revenue) on a typical winter weekday would benefit? It's a genuine question.

And yes, I know this discussion is a bit OT

Well, one could always make the argument that the lack of the route is exacerbating problems of getting stock to the isolated section.

Anyhoo, the Tavistock end needs to come back because of congestion, the Okehampton end is agitating for new stations and better services to improve connectivity. How much more useful would a through route be than two dead end branch lines.

Also why particularly ask for traffic not by revenue and on a winter weekday. Would this not give a somewhat skewed impression of traffic potential ?

 

[yorksrob]

Phil Marsh (from Railway Magazine) has just been on the BBC news and was advocating reinstatement of the Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton line, he reckons it would cost about £250 million for the section from Tavistock to Okehampton, apparently based on what the Waverley line is costing, and that does not include the cost of Bere Alston to Tavistock which he was assuming would go ahead anyway, and he also said nothing about the costs of any upgrade works that would be needed between Okehamption and Exeter.

In the context of the chancellors recent infrastructure programme and the £30 billion spend earmarked for Network Rail, the cost of this strategically important link doesn't seem excessive.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There would be benefits to the withered arm getting its hand back !.

If (when) electrification extends beyond Exeter I can see an inland route being more useful as it would avoid the salt spray (vs 25kVAC). It would hopefully avoid high winds as well. I seem to recall from other threads that the trains that regularly pass through/along Dawlish suffer from more corrosion as salt water is bad for metal and they regularly get sprayed.