Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[charlee]

The meeting with the sec of state has resulted in a "promise" which could lead to nothing at all.

@krossiter: Angry meeting with Transport Secretary extracts promise to look at long-term answers for SW rail - including alternative routes

https://twitter.com/krossiter/status/431142077645062145

 

[LateThanNever]

Yes I agree the Okehampton line should be reopened - it should never have closed as the Dawlish route has always been vulnerable to the weather, but never as much as last night. At least there are moves to reopen north to Tavistock.

But even if reopened this would be effectively a single track branch line requiring two reversals for all trains going beyond Plymouth.

Maybe the more radical option of a completely new inland route between Exeter and Newton Abbot is the one Network Rail should be looking at.

Only one reversal beyond Plymouth if they went via Exeter Central as they used to!

 

[HowardGWR]

In the context of the chancellors recent infrastructure programme and the £30 billion spend earmarked for Network Rail, the cost of this strategically important link doesn't seem excessive.

I don't think it's the cost - it's the legal time and expected difficulties taken with the CPOs needed for the garden of the bungalow near the proposed new Tavistock station, demolition of about 4 homes next to the viaduct at Tavistock and the old hillside Tavistock station which would have the train (obviously) going within feet of it. Then there are the council buildings which are not so much a problem because they are pretty cheapjack and easily replaced, - oh and the appropriation of part of the garden of an old people's home further along (I think that is what it is). Then there is the loss of the cycle path once outside Tavistock, all the way to Meldon and the taking of some more garden of the ex-station house at Bridestowe. I may have missed another CPO somewhere - those are enough aren't they?

Almost as bad as HS2 unless some emergency legislation perhaps could be passed.
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I imagine a short term solution would be to build the wall first back to what it was, then fill the void with concrete and ballast on top, with drainage channels . At the same time, building a supporting wall (providing the house doesn't come down) and repairing the gaping hole in the road above.

A bridge won't take care of protecting the land behind

If you have looked at what has happened there (and what almost certainly is still going to happen) the rail trajectory and the houses behind are a total loss. Only a viaduct solution seems remotely possible and then is it really sustainable? What you say about the land behind is equally valid.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Yes I agree the Okehampton line should be reopened - it should never have closed as the Dawlish route has always been vulnerable to the weather, but never as much as last night. At least there are moves to reopen north to Tavistock.

But even if reopened this would be effectively a single track branch line requiring two reversals for all trains going beyond Plymouth.

Maybe the more radical option of a completely new inland route between Exeter and Newton Abbot is the one Network Rail should be looking at.

No, not at all, it'd be a single track MAIN LINE - - - etc. Wouldn't it?

 

[The Decapod]

I don't know the geography of Dawlish apart from what I see on Google maps.
Is it feasible to divert the railway line away from the sea ,to the west of Dawlish ??

Where there's a will, there's a way. It would only cost a tiny fraction of what HS2 will cost.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think it's the cost - it's the legal time and expected difficulties taken with the CPOs needed for the garden of the bungalow near the proposed new Tavistock station, demolition of about 4 homes next to the viaduct at Tavistock and the old hillside Tavistock station which would have the train (obviously) going within feet of it. Then there are the council buildings which are not so much a problem because they are pretty cheapjack and easily replaced, - oh and the appropriation of part of the garden of an old people's home further along (I think that is what it is). Then there is the loss of the cycle path once outside Tavistock, all the way to Meldon and the taking of some more garden of the ex-station house at Bridestowe. I may have missed another CPO somewhere - those are enough aren't they?

Almost as bad as HS2 unless some emergency legislation perhaps could be passed.

Hardly. What's that you've mentioned - a garden, which the local authority has already decided could be sacrificed for the Plymouth line anyway, 4 homes as well as Tavistock North station - for that number of properties, they might as well avoid CPO's and pay over the odds for them. It's not a foregone conclusion that the occupants won't be prepared to make a deal. A garden for an old peoples home - they could try making an offer, and some council buildings - if Devon's anything like round here, they'll be trying to get rid of council offices to cut costs anyway.

As for the cycleway, they're good for protecting track beds, but if they turn into an obstacle to using the railway line for the purpose for which it was built, they should stop building them on old railway lines. Also I'm pretty sure all of the other infrastructure projects announced in George's master plan will have similar issues to overcome.

 

[motorman]

I agree with the earlier threads that the Southern route to Plymouth should not have closed. It is an akward diversion route though, as reversals are required at both Plymouth and Exeter. If restored would it be single or double track? Single track would restrict capacity for a full diversion service but would probably be adequate for a regular hourly or bi hourly service. This could be a continuation of the SWT Waterloo - Exeter service which of course does not need any reversal at Exeter. The section from Bere Alston to Plymouth I assume would need to be double to cater for the Gunnislake service. Crediton to Cowley Bridge would also need reinstatment of double track. All exciting possibilities.

Newton Abbott, Torbay and Paignton would unfortunately not benefit from this reinstatement.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

It would only cost a tiny fraction of what HS2 will cost.

And bring a tiny fraction of the benefit = never going to happen! The reopening of the route from Okehampton is more plausible but still IMHO highly unlikely for years to come.

 

[falcon]

There was a far shorter and better alternative route from Exeter to Newton Abbot via Heathfield that is the route that should never have been closed.

 

[Michael.Y]

There was a far shorter and better alternative route from Exeter to Newton Abbot via Heathfield that is the route that should never have been closed.

Teign Valley. Was just reading about that on Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teign_Valley_Line

Pie in the sky perhaps, but possible.

 

[341o2]

Yes I agree the Okehampton line should be reopened - it should never have closed as the Dawlish route has always been vulnerable to the weather, but never as much as last night. At least there are moves to reopen north to Tavistock.

But even if reopened this would be effectively a single track branch line requiring two reversals for all trains going beyond Plymouth.

Maybe the more radical option of a completely new inland route between Exeter and Newton Abbot is the one Network Rail should be looking at.

I don't understand why there needs to be two reversals. Restoring Okehampton - Bere Alston could mean that the current Waterloo - Exeter St Davids service could continue west. The infastructure throught was laid out for double track. At the Exeter end double track extends as far as Crediton, where the line becomes two parallel single tracks to Yeoford, where the Barnstaple line seperates. at the Plymouth end, single track on double track formation as far as Bere Alston

The Crosscountry service Bournemouth - Manchester reverses at Reading

The inland route would mean land aquisition plus construction of tunnels

Closure of Bere Alston - okehamptonwas opposed on the grounds that the service to Tavistock was one of the best patronised services in the WC and for this strategic issue that if the line through Dawlish is closed then west Devon and Cornwall are isolated from the rest of the rail network in an area which has poor road communications

 

[The Planner]

Yes it works for that service, but for any FGW or XC services you need to reverse at Exeter and Plymouth to continue to Penzance who arguably carry much larger flows. I would argue that Devon and Cornwall have poor road links, the A38 and A30 are both good standard dual carriageway roads.

 

[pistonvalve]

There is only a small section of the former LSWR main line that between Bere Alston and Meldon that needs to be re-instated to make a very useful diversionary route when the GW main line at Dawlish is cut. This diversionary route between Exeter and Plymouth was used often in the 50's by the Western region.

I don't think it would cost 'mega bucks' either.

Mike.

 

[Tobbes]

Okehampton to Bere Alston is listed in Wikipedia as is 22.75 miles. Given that there is a planned extension to Tavistock North, the distance is only 16.25 miles. The "missing" section will be shorter still, as the line still extends to Meldon Quarry.

This is not to say that it is simply a case of plonking down some track: to be a useful diversionary route, it will presumably need more track capacity than is envisaged for the Tavistock to Plymouth shuttle service. But even at £10m / mile (roughly the cost of Borders Rail - £294m / 30 miles), £165m doesn't seem like a lot. Obviously, this doesn't include the cost of Meldon Viaduct - does anyone know what kind of state it is actually in?

Tobbes

 

[The Planner]

It doesn't matter whether it costs 10p or 10 billion, unless there is a return and tangible benefit for doing it these things won't happen and schemes that are "just in case" invariably fall flat on their arse.

 

[Greybeard33]

There is only a small section of the former LSWR main line that between Bere Alston and Meldon that needs to be re-instated to make a very useful diversionary route when the GW main line at Dawlish is cut. This diversionary route between Exeter and Plymouth was used often in the 50's by the Western region.

I don't think it would cost 'mega bucks' either.

Mike.

Interesting that, in an interview on this morning's Radio 4 Today programme (starting 02:10:45), Robin Gisby, NR Director of Network Operations, seemed to hint that reopening of the LSWR line to Plymouth is being seriously considered, following a meeting he had had with the Secretary of State and local MPs yesterday:

...then we have got to take a longer term look at [the Dawlish] line and other routes, and move to talk much more about resilience....now we've got to invest longer term....it's worth looking at; there were some other lines that go more cross country - one of those was closed back in the Beeching era and that's something we've got to look at....

 

[341o2]

the cost of maintaining Meldon viaduct was a major factor in deciding to close the line, in its final years only one train at a time was permitted to be on the viaduct, as there were often up and down trains on the mainline connecting with the North Cornwall branches some smart work was needed to avoid delays The North Cornwall branch left the main line at a point just west of the viaduct

As well a the missing section, there would have to be at least some restoration of double track between St Budeaux and Tavistock, also Okehampton - Yeoford

 

[Tobbes]

It doesn't matter whether it costs 10p or 10 billion, unless there is a return and tangible benefit for doing it these things won't happen and schemes that are "just in case" invariably fall flat on their arse.

Agreed, which is why I was asking about Meldon Viaduct. But this is why Greybeard's comment is so interesting (I nearly spilt my tea when I heard it!)

Interesting that, in an interview on this morning's Radio 4 Today programme (starting 02:10:45), Robin Gisby, NR Director of Network Operations, seemed to hint that reopening of the LSWR line to Plymouth is being seriously considered, following a meeting he had had with the Secretary of State and local MPs yesterday:

This is where the politics comes in. In light of the number of seats that the Tories need to retain (and Lib Dem ones they need to pick up) in the SW to stand any chance of winning in May 2015, then never rule out a grand gesture (esp. with UKIP relatively strong in the SW). After all, Cameron did explicitly say that money was no object in sorting out the SW storm damage.....

 

[pistonvalve]

The products from Meldon quarry are going to be useful in plugging the 'gaps' hopefully rail transported.

If these 'freak' weather pattern's are to become the norm then the good people of S Devon and Cornwall will rightly expect a reliable rail service hence the old LSWR route should be restored. I cannot see any re-building at Dawlish is going to provide a reliable rail connection. - It never has in the past.

The re-building of Meldon viaduct is a small price to pay to insure a large chunk of the UK remains rail connected at all times.

Mike.

 

[Frank Scully]

Can I just say that as an ex resident of west Cornwall, the suggestion that the disused and extremely indirect Tamar Valley route should be reinstated as a replacement for the Dawlish section is just not acceptable. The people of Cornwall and south Devon have a long-standing aspiration for a faster intercity service. Network Rail should take a very long-term view here and accept that the Dawlish section needs to be rerouted inland. It does not require rebuilding the entire Plymouth-Exeter line, merely 15 miles or so of new track, aligned for higher speends, built on a sea-proof route well away from the coast. Can I add the rebuilding Dawlish in situ, while necessary for the short-term, is not a permanent solution.

 

[Morgsie]

Reopen the old Southern Railway line. Stephen Gilbert MP who I have as a friend on FB said

a report looking at the feasibility of alternative routes, but that's a longer term issue.

following a meeting with the Transport Secretary

 

[Tobbes]

On R4 World at One, now.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

There was another route past Dawlish via the GWR Heathfield branch.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/GWR_map_Devon.jpg
A new Dawlish diversion route is becoming 'cheaper' by the day, with an estimated 300m breakwater. as mentioned by the Newton Abbott MP, to ensure keeping the present route open long term.

Alternative routes.
Imo there should be more investment in alternative routes.
Where they do exist, capacity has been cut to the bone, which makes using them as a diversion route very restrictive.
Benefits, not only used during a blockage/ failure, but making closures for maintenance easier as well. Using them for night services.
Costs - does not add up by accountants.
For communities and business affected by delays, closures, etc the cost can be enormous. Estimated at 20M a day for the breach of the sea wall in Devon.

Plymouth Okehampton Exeter - A real boost for the Towns that would be served. (link a bus to Holsworthy, Bude, Launceston etc)
Or would it make more sense to spend the money in the densely populated SE? / Major cities? The rich areas get richer, and the less well off areas poorer?

 

[341o2]

And what's the condition of these routes today? Still there, but derelict (like Calvert to Bletchley), route still there but overgrown (like, say, Skipton to Colne), or only partly there but built on in places. I travel down to Penzance once in a while, and whilst this bit along the beach (as someone here called it) is very spectacular, it always looks very vulnerable, especially to a land-lubber like me. (We northerners carve our railways out of the solid inland hills far from the sea and get quite nervous if we see ripples on the canal, even).

Some housing development at Tavistock, most of the rest of the route a cycle track which runs from Okehampton to Plymouth. So apart from a deviation to avoid the aforesaid houses, the trackbed is nearly intact There is also the trackbed of the former GW branch which left the main line at Marsh Mills went to Tavistock South then parallelled the SR route before turning away northwards to terminate at Launceston

 

[Tobbes]

SoS for Transport confirmed that Dawlish would be at least six weeks, but that they're waiting for Saturday's storm and then an engineering assessment. He postulated putting the whole section "in a shed" which seems odd, given that the issue at the moment is not the cliff collapsing but the sea undermining the formation.

He's ordered a review of alternative inland routes - and this includes Okehampton which the Beeb asked him about specifically. Beeb said Okehampton would cost £100m, which seems optimistic (or more likely, uninformed) to me.

We'll see - but if this can't put Okehampton - Tavistock on the agenda, nothing can. (And yes, I'd love a 35028 Waterloo - Exeter / 34067 Exeter - Plymouth ACE extravaganza... or even a Devon Belle with the VSOE set, but let's not get too carried away just yet...!)

 

[HowardGWR]

Yes it works for that service, but for any FGW or XC services you need to reverse at Exeter and Plymouth to continue to Penzance who arguably carry much larger flows. I would argue that Devon and Cornwall have poor road links, the A38 and A30 are both good standard dual carriageway roads.

I can't follow that - have you missed out a 'not' or 'don't' somewhere?
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Of course the Tavistock route rebuilding does not get you to Torquay, does it? I suspect that both that route and a route from Exminster to Newton are required in the long run.

 

[Goatboy]

I would have thought that because this line runs for several miles along the coast between Exeter and Newton Abbot that a diversionary route would have been built by now. Every year or so this route suffers some degree of bad weather which results in the line having to shut. They should have known this years ago and its not exactly rocket science to know that having a train line running on the beach will cause problems.

The last 2 years though a diversionary route would have been no help as the last two major closures were Cowly Bridge Junction not Dawlish. The route would presumably diverge on the South West side of Exeter, so it wouldn't solve that.

So, as serious as this is - and its very serious - this is a unique event. It's not 'Oh look, the track bed bed has collapsed yet again' like people seem to be implying.

 

[341o2]

SoS for Transport confirmed that Dawlish would be at least six weeks, but that they're waiting for Saturday's storm and then an engineering assessment. He postulated putting the whole section "in a shed" which seems odd, given that the issue at the moment is not the cliff collapsing but the sea undermining the formation.

He's ordered a review of alternative inland routes - and this includes Okehampton which the Beeb asked him about specifically. Beeb said Okehampton would cost £100m, which seems optimistic (or more likely, uninformed) to me.

We'll see - but if this can't put Okehampton - Tavistock on the agenda, nothing can. (And yes, I'd love a 35028 Waterloo - Exeter / 34067 Exeter - Plymouth ACE extravaganza... or even a Devon Belle with the VSOE set, but let's not get too carried away just yet...!)

Something of the sort is planned for September with 35028 to run Waterloo -Exeter - Barnstaple while 34067 & 34046 Exeter - Penzance 5th September 50 years after the last ACE (steam dreams )

 

[po8crg]

If there wasn't any track in situ at all west of Exeter, what would you build?

Start from there, and see how close you can get at a sensible price.

 

[gshevlin]

the cost of maintaining Meldon viaduct was a major factor in deciding to close the line, in its final years only one train at a time was permitted to be on the viaduct, as there were often up and down trains on the mainline connecting with the North Cornwall branches some smart work was needed to avoid delays The North Cornwall branch left the main line at a point just west of the viaduct

As well a the missing section, there would have to be at least some restoration of double track between St Budeaux and Tavistock, also Okehampton - Yeoford

The problems with Meldon Viaduct were the condition of the viaduct deck units. The viaduct was originally built for a single line and the deck was then extended when the line was doubled. The viaduct was single line working from 1966 until the line closed in January 1968. The headshunt for the quarry extended all the way across the viaduct on the remaining single line until 1990. I walked along the headshunt on a railtour visit in 1978. A significant amount of money was spent on re-furbishing the decking of the viaduct when the cycle trail was opened, although that work was obviously not done on the basis that trains would use the viaduct again. I am assuming that the entire top deck would need to be replaced.
According to my reference book for the line, the distance on the old line from Meldon Quarry to Bere Alston is around 19 miles.
Since the entire trackbed from Crediton up to Meldon quarry is still clear, that section could be doubled and upgraded fairly easily. If the section from Bere Alston towards Plymouth is doubled once more, that would only leave 20 miles of single track, which would give the line plenty of capacity.
The main challenge is ownership. The line between Crediton and Meldon is now owned by a US company. The trackbed between Bere Alston and Meldon is mostly in private ownership. Eminent Domain takes a while, unless emergency legislation is passed.
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This is the link to a brief report from Devon County Council from 2010 which lists some of the challenges. The report does not rule out that the line can be reinstated, it simply hides behind the meme "but it will cost a lot of money". http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=EEC/10/216/HQ.CMR&rn=10/WD2500&dg=Public