Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[21C101]

The point about the Lada with its cheap spec was it didn't keep breaking down, unlike Voyagers in contact with a bit of salt water.

And once Plymouth pax have the option of a Class 159 with its comfortable facing seats and tables which line up with the windows they may have their own opinion as to which TOC operates Lada's
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Methinks this thread might get active and back on original topic again hock:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ast-forecasters-warn-wind-rain-Christmas.html

 

[drinnicksiding]

The Okehampton route would stand on its own as a new transport artery during normal operations, serving settlements en route. Assuming, as seems reasonable, services were linked through Exeter Central to destinations on the LSWR line perhaps as far as Waterloo, that could also provide new direct links from Plymouth that could be attractive, including to Exeter's growing airport via the new Cranbrook station, especially important since Plymouth lost it's own airport.

Further improvements to the GWR route would not be jeopardised in the longer term by the existence of the Okehampton line if those changes were justified for longer distance growth or to accomodate the traffic mix constraints of the the existing double track route (stopping /non-stopping service mix see previous posts ad infinitum).

I would also like to think that the two routes could remain in the hands of different operators so that a degree of price competition can exist to help incentivise use of the slightly slower route via Okehampton (with the likely stopping pattern), keep the GW operator honest and help to grow the overall market.

I notice FGW were very much involved for the ministerial visit to Okehampton. Whilst I guess it's a part of their franchise, is it in their interests to ensure they run that route as a back-up rather than allow the West of England franchisee extend the current Waterloo-Exeter route. That said, that route's long term strategy has been set out recently and they seem more concerned about the London suburban capacity.

I'm sure the Okehampton line could run local services over time, but I'd be keen to see them Hourly from Plymouth - Exeter central. Going to all this cost to provide a two-hourly service will not see the culture change required, commuters and day visitors would require an hourly service to make the service reliable.

I'd like to see some additional capacity on the WoE line to Yeovil. When the Whiteball Tunnel was closed, FGW trains went that way and I think the maximum is currently 3tp2h at uneven spells. I also know that Devon and Exeter councils want more rail users (given current traffic) so here is a chance to push for half-hourly services from Yeovil to Exeter St David's (continuing to Plymouth via Okehampton each hour).

 

[Busaholic]

I notice FGW were very much involved for the ministerial visit to Okehampton. Whilst I guess it's a part of their franchise, is it in their interests to ensure they run that route as a back-up rather than allow the West of England franchisee extend the current Waterloo-Exeter route. That said, that route's long term strategy has been set out recently and they seem more concerned about the London suburban capacity.

I'm sure the Okehampton line could run local services over time, but I'd be keen to see them Hourly from Plymouth - Exeter central. Going to all this cost to provide a two-hourly service will not see the culture change required, commuters and day visitors would require an hourly service to make the service reliable.

I'd like to see some additional capacity on the WoE line to Yeovil. When the Whiteball Tunnel was closed, FGW trains went that way and I think the maximum is currently 3tp2h at uneven spells. I also know that Devon and Exeter councils want more rail users (given current traffic) so here is a chance to push for half-hourly services from Yeovil to Exeter St David's (continuing to Plymouth via Okehampton each hour).

Believe it or not, Penzance to Plymouth does not even get an hourly service. There are many gaps over one hour during the day, and barely one train every two hours in the evening in this direction. In the reverse direction the early and mid morning service is pathetic. I'm including all services, Cross Country as well as FGW.

I would agree that an hourly service from Okehampton is the minimum requirement daytimes weekdays: a clockface timetable should certainly be aimed for too.

 

[yorksrob]

Additionally, if enhancements up to and including electrification are ever to take place on the main line, they will likely cause a hell of a lot of disruption. Those calling for these improvements should be agitating for the Okehampton route to be reinstated beforehand to avoid the disruption.

 

[LateThanNever]

Believe it or not, Penzance to Plymouth does not even get an hourly service. There are many gaps over one hour during the day, and barely one train every two hours in the evening in this direction. In the reverse direction the early and mid morning service is pathetic. I'm including all services, Cross Country as well as FGW.

I would agree that an hourly service from Okehampton is the minimum requirement daytimes weekdays: a clockface timetable should certainly be aimed for too.

What doya mean? The last train of the day leaves Penzance a full 23 minutes after the sleeper, which it then chases all the way to Plymouth. The fact that there was an hour and a half gap prior to that is just one of the idiosyncrasies of the Cornish signalling system and will all be resolved when the Cornish signallers all get the sack and those nice men in Didcot look after it.
Or so we are told.
I would have thought they could try harder to do better, sooner in Cornwall. (Not, in other words, dreckly...)

 

[Busaholic]

What doya mean? The last train of the day leaves Penzance a full 23 minutes after the sleeper, which it then chases all the way to Plymouth. The fact that there was an hour and a half gap prior to that is just one of the idiosyncrasies of the Cornish signalling system and will all be resolved when the Cornish signallers all get the sack and those nice men in Didcot look after it.
Or so we are told.
I would have thought they could try harder to do better, sooner in Cornwall. (Not, in other words, dreckly...)

And a gap between 17.39 and 19.16. So if you work in a shop that closes at 17.30...

 

[bnm]

And a gap between 17.39 and 19.16. So if you work in a shop that closes at 17.30...

... you drive or take the bus. I can't imaging there are multitudes of shop workers missing out in Penzance because the train leaves at 1739.

That said, the service is ideal for shop workers in Hayle, Camborne, Redruth and Truro.

 

[HowardGWR]

... you drive or take the bus. I can't imaging there are multitudes of shop workers missing out in Penzance because the train leaves at 1739.

That said, the service is ideal for shop workers in Hayle, Camborne, Redruth and Truro.

Interesting. The only way i could imagine car owners abandoning their vehicles in Cornwall would be if there were "rush hour" jams. Are there any? I find such jams difficult to believe.

 

[sor]

Interesting. The only way i could imagine car owners abandoning their vehicles in Cornwall would be if there were "rush hour" jams. Are there any? I find such jams difficult to believe.

It doesn't take much for something to develop on the non-dualled parts of the A30, and the queues of people trying to leave Bodmin at rush hour onto the A30 are quite long (not that Bodmin has a real town centre railway station)

 

[edwin_m]

Ha ha I like it! Look forward to hearing more railway tales from the sunny Southwest in the future

Some days at Dawlish he could catch the fish just by opening the cab window!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Some days at Dawlish he could catch the fish just by opening the cab window!

Would imagine passengers on a HST also, if stood by an open droplight

 

[LateThanNever]

Interesting. The only way i could imagine car owners abandoning their vehicles in Cornwall would be if there were "rush hour" jams. Are there any? I find such jams difficult to believe.

Jams around the core built up areas and the non dualled A30 are 'reassuringly' regular around the rush hour and even at other times. They are rarely, it is true, (thank goodness) as long-lived as those in the Summer... . such that it is certainly worth taking the train if the times are feasible - but there's not a lot of choice and so virtually zero flexibilty!

 

[yorksrob]

You only have to travel on the line through Cornwall to see what a local lifeline it is, so it wouldn't surprise me if a few more local services proved well used.

 

[Busaholic]

... you drive or take the bus. I can't imaging there are multitudes of shop workers missing out in Penzance because the train leaves at 1739.

That said, the service is ideal for shop workers in Hayle, Camborne, Redruth and Truro.

I know a shop owner who lives in Truro, has never driven and closes his shop dead on 17.00. If he misses the 17.39, getting to Truro less than forty minutes later, and has to get the 1748 bus it arrives at 19.25

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Interesting. The only way I could imagine car owners abandoning their vehicles in Cornwall would be if there were "rush hour" jams. Are there any? I find such jams difficult to believe.

In the more peripheral areas of Britain, where rail services are somewhat less frequent than in the urban areas, car ownership is a fact of life. I will cite the areas of Norfolk once served by the Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway as an example of this where the bus services are not of the frequency to make them an attractive alternative away from the few large town areas.

 

[po8crg]

I suspect that this is intended as joint recognition for all the work that went into repairing the line at Dawlish

Patrick Hallgate, a route managing director involved in the repair of flood-hit line at Dawlish in Devon, becomes an MBE for services to the Economy in the South West.

 

[21C101]

Well I reckon that this BBC video answers the "can you electrify through Dawlish" question

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30829456

 

[deltic08]

Well I reckon that this BBC video answers the "can you electrify through Dawlish" question

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30829456

Yes you can electrify but buses were being used instead of trains to Ardrossan and Largs today through Saltcoats.

 

[Rich McLean]

Yes you can electrify but buses were being used instead of trains to Ardrossan and Largs today through Saltcoats.

Electric trains would not be able to run while waves are over topping the line.

 

[Requeststop]

Yes you can electrify but buses were being used instead of trains to Ardrossan and Largs today through Saltcoats.

How often in a year are buses used because of weather conditions like that?

 

[D1009]

Electric trains would not be able to run while waves are over topping the line.

The same as voyagers.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere, but Devon and Cornwall had a state-visit from David Cameron and George Osborne last week, seemingly favouring the L & SW route via Okehampton as an alternative and back-up to Dawlish.

http://www.modern-railways.com/view_article.asp?ID=8632&pubID=37&t=0&s=0&sO=both&p=1&i=10

This, of course, will be quietly dropped once the election is safely out the way but what caught my eye was the proposal to create a dedicated franchise for the South West - shades of 'Wessex Trains'. The uncritical local papers broadly welcome this, but my nasty suspicious mind suggests it is a device to hive off the loss-making services from Great Western and South West Trains rather like Northern from Transpennine. It also rather neatly solves the problem of what to do about non-electrified through services, by requiring a change at Exeter(GW) or Salisbury(SWT). It also places the onus on local-authorities to make funding decisions under the guise of 'localism'. Devon and Cornwall is about to face a massive cull to its bus-network which makes me fear for the rail-network as well. I am interested in your thoughts before I make representations to local MPs.

 

[yorksrob]

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere, but Devon and Cornwall had a state-visit from David Cameron and George Osborne last week, seemingly favouring the L & SW route via Okehampton as an alternative and back-up to Dawlish.

http://www.modern-railways.com/view_article.asp?ID=8632&pubID=37&t=0&s=0&sO=both&p=1&i=10

This, of course, will be quietly dropped once the election is safely out the way but what caught my eye was the proposal to create a dedicated franchise for the South West - shades of 'Wessex Trains'. The uncritical local papers broadly welcome this, but my nasty suspicious mind suggests it is a device to hive off the loss-making services from Great Western and South West Trains rather like Northern from Transpennine. It also rather neatly solves the problem of what to do about non-electrified through services, by requiring a change at Exeter(GW) or Salisbury(SWT). It also places the onus on local-authorities to make funding decisions under the guise of 'localism'. Devon and Cornwall is about to face a massive cull to its bus-network which makes me fear for the rail-network as well. I am interested in your thoughts before I make representations to local MPs.

It's good that they support the alternative route through Okehampton. What would be better would be if they committed to it through act of parliament before the election (afterall, parliament isn't exactly busy at the moment).

However, locals should be very wary of any attempt to hive off loss making services (see Northern). Keep those cross-subsidies nicely submerged in the InterCity franchise. Seems madness to mess with something when it's working.

 

[Ash Bridge]

It's good that they support the alternative route through Okehampton. What would be better would be if they committed to it through act of parliament before the election (afterall, parliament isn't exactly busy at the moment).

However, locals should be very wary of any attempt to hive off loss making services (see Northern). Keep those cross-subsidies nicely submerged in the InterCity franchise. Seems madness to mess with something when it's working.

If my memory is serving me correctly, was it not said at the time of the Autumn statement that Network Rails second feasabilty study for Okehampton- Tavistock reinstatement would be completed by the end of March?

 

[yorksrob]

If my memory is serving me correctly, was it not said at the time of the Autumn statement that Network Rails second feasabilty study for Okehampton- Tavistock reinstatement would be completed by the end of March?

Possibly - whether that will leave enough time for an act of parliament. I'd rather have something in place so that an incoming Government would have to undergo the scrutiny of cancelling it, rather than just being able to forget about it.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Possibly - whether that will leave enough time for an act of parliament. I'd rather have something in place so that an incoming Government would have to undergo the scrutiny of cancelling it, rather than just being able to forget about it.

Yes, I agree with all you say and it would be definitely cutting it somewhat fine.The other thing of course which would help strengthen the case, is if another winter storm should occur (Not that Iam at all wishing for a repeat of last years events) but it would certainly keep the situation fresh in mind.

 

[Bald Rick]

Possibly - whether that will leave enough time for an act of parliament. I'd rather have something in place so that an incoming Government would have to undergo the scrutiny of cancelling it, rather than just being able to forget about it.

Acts of parliament for new infrastructure schemes are timed in years when it comes to parliamentary time. Anybody and everybody is entitled to lay a petition against the bill, and they all have to be considered.

 

[yorksrob]

Acts of parliament for new infrastructure schemes are timed in years when it comes to parliamentary time. Anybody and everybody is entitled to lay a petition against the bill, and they all have to be considered.

Pity they didn't need an act of parliament to close it in the first place.

 

[deltic08]

Pity they didn't need an act of parliament to close it in the first place.

It did need one, it was called a Closure Bill but some lines slipped through the net as they were done in batches and didn't have one so should not have been closed as it was illegal. Northallerton-Ripon-Harrogate was one that didn't have a Closure Bill and still hasn't had one.

 

[34104]

It did need one, it was called a Closure Bill but some lines slipped through the net as they were done in batches and didn't have one so should not have been closed as it was illegal. Northallerton-Ripon-Harrogate was one that didn't have a Closure Bill and still hasn't had one.

Did anyone draw attention to that at the time? Can't remember the exact details but I believe that BR tried to close the Bluebell Line but some of the locals found that their action was illegal under the terms of the original Act of Parliament and they were obliged to keep it open for a few years-not sure how they got around it to close the line eventually.