Summons for failing to submit a rail ticket??

[archwaykid]

Hello chaps,
Archway-London Bridge-Gatwick Airport
February 2015

I normally commute by motorbike so don't really use the trains/ tube that much. So on the day of travel, I used my contactless card from North London to London Bridge. And then from London Bridge to Gatwick.
Now, I did do a check on the TFL journey planner and even checked southern rail online and never was I warned to not use my contactless card for travel. Also, as my flight ticket referred to Gatwick as a London airport, I used my contactless card to travel to Gatwick.
At the airport, I tried to get out the turnstile but there was a very unsurprised woman who led me to 3 GTR officials behind me. Who began to accuse me of dodging my fare. I tried to convince them but they weren't budging and threatened to issue me with a penalty of £20.00.
If I was wrong, I'd admit and pay it up.
But on this instance I really thought/ still think that there was no clear indication/ warning for the use of contactless cards for travel. One of the three was convinced that I wasn't a fare dodger and said, if I took the prosecutions route, he would put in a good word for me. So I gave my statement.
I came back from my holiday and I received a letter to explain my end of the story. I did and I was honest and I even apologised.
But the next letter I received from them was that they were taking me to a summons?? For 'failing to produce a ticket under Bye-law no 18 (2) of the Railway Byelaws made under section 219 of the Transport Act 2000', despite me using my contactless card on the day.

The law is outdated for the use of Contactless and their website are not clear on its use too.

I just don't understand this. There were no signs online nor in London Bridge to restrict me from using my Contactless card. No attempt to resolve this amicably and straight to summons!
The letter is dated 23/03/2015 and posted on the 26th and I recd on 27/03/2015. And they've given me a week to respond.
The summons is in West Sussex at 09:30 am. All designed to make me plead guilty and pay a fine of £135 or plead not guilty and face paying a fines of up to £1000.00. Why?
I've never done anything illegal in my life. I have no criminal record. I am honest. Why am I subject to such rubbish treatment by Govia Thameslink. I wrote an email to Boris, copying in the CEO of GTR, the prosecutions department, my local paper and my MP too.

I'm totally stressed about this and don't know what to do. I have been scraping to save a bit only for GTR to take it away from me through fines? And for not being clear on their website?

Appreciate any help and apologies for the long message on here. I am completely lost and stressed out. They are being unfair.

Thanks

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The law is outdated for the use of Contactless and their website are not clear on its use too.

Contactless is only the same as Oyster which doesn't (yet) extend to Gatwick Airport. I'd suspect there's no direct warning that Oyster and equivalents aren't valid to Gatwick, but there are maps of the Fare Zones all over the place and if travelling to the edge or outside of London, it's best to check where the Zone border lies.

 

[EM2]

One question, and one follow-up.
Was there a sign or notice or even a mention saying that you COULD use contactless?
If not, why assume that you can?

 

[TUC]

If I recall correctly, aren't the Contactless notices worded simply along the lines of 'Contactless can be used within London? The problem being that I can see for a visitor it is ambiguous what 'London' means. Yes there are maps, but without notices referring to them for validity, why would a visitor automatically think to look at them, especially for a destination with London in its title (although I accept that in the case of the airports, 'London' is in the airport rather than station names)

 

[DaleCooper]

This appears to have the answers.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/where-can-i-use-contactless

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Offering a penalty fare was the correct procedure in your situation. It does not indicate any dishonesty on your part. And while it's easy to say in hindsight, your best option would have been to pay and then complain/explain by letter.

But, just to ease your fears somewhat, a conviction for a byelaw offence doesn't carry a criminal record. However the simple fact that you didn't have a valid ticket (with very few exceptions) is sufficient to render a guilty verdict.

As for the threat of a £1000 fine, that is the maximum that a magistrate may impose. It is very unlikely you would receive this, although the overall cost will probably be higher than the £135.

You should have the option of turning up at court. If you do, you could seek out the prosecutor and attempt to negotiate an out of court settlement.

Good luck.

 

[Timster83]

I travelled a few times in February from Central London to Gatwick via Thameslink and there were clear messages before East Croydon stating that Oyster and Contactless were not available after that station and that a separate ticket would be required.

Would Southern not have a similar message?

 

[Haywain]

If I was wrong, I'd admit and pay it up.

You were wrong, and didn't pay up.

The law is outdated for the use of Contactless and their website are not clear on its use too.

You weren't using contactless, you were travelling without a valid ticket.

No attempt to resolve this amicably and straight to summons!

You were offered the opportunity to pay a penalty fare. That would have settled the matter amicably and prevented it progressing.

I've never done anything illegal in my life.

It would seem that you have, albeit inadvertantly. And been caught.

Appreciate any help and apologies for the long message on here. I am completely lost and stressed out. They are being unfair.

My comments may seem harsh, but you need to stop being feeling hard done by and see the reality of the situation. You didn't have a ticket, and you needed to have one. You were offered an opportunity to deal with that, but declined. You cannot be offered that now, so GTR do not have another course of action open to them - although they might accept an out of court settlement if you approach them in the right way - which means accepting some responsibility for the situation yourself.

 

[island]

Contactless cards are not valid at Gatwick or beyond East Croydon/Coulsdon South on the way.

You did not have a ticket (which is a criminal offence) and were correctly offered the normal option to resolve issues where a passenger has made a genuine mistake, which is a Penalty Fare.

You chose not to cooperate and have been referred for prosecution. The offence is open and shut and strict liability. Gatwick Airport isn't in London and is outside Boris's area of responsibility. If you want to stay out of court, I would suggest you telephone (not email) the prosecutions department at your earliest opportunity to discuss the sum of money which you can pay towards their costs in investigating and prosecuting the offence you committed and in return for which they would discontinue the proceedings.

Having paid that and ensured prosecution was not taken forward, you would then be free to pursue your customer service issues, if, on reflection, you still consider you have suffered "rubbish treatment" from Thameslink (as opposed to, say, not being told what you wanted to hear, patted on the head, and sent on your way).

 

[archwaykid]

Thank you for your messages and I appreciate it very much. I suppose I was completely ignorant.

I'll try calling them. And yes in hindsight, I should've paid the penalty.

Thanks
Jay

 

[archwaykid]

Hello all
Just called them and ended up paying £60.25 as an out of court settlement. In hindsight, I should've just paid the penalty and argued later.

Just felt/ Still feel this is unfair to all the others who get stung in the same way.

I'd like to take this opportunity, again, to thank you. I appreciate your time in posting and helping me out.

Best,
ArchwayKid

 

[LexyBoy]

It's understandable that someone would not know Contactless/Oyster can't be used outside London if they have only travelled by train within the Zones. London is quite insular, plus of course TfL have done their best to sweep paper tickets away. Plus, travelling to London Gatwick airport one might assume that a ticketing system for London would cover the journey.

Unfortunately at this point there is not much to be done - as others have said it is your responsibility to hold a valid ticket. Railway law is pretty straightforward on this (indeed very passenger-unfriendly if not used reasonably). By not buying a valid ticket you committed a criminal offence, and the best course of action now is to negotiate an out-of-court settlement.

You did not have a ticket (which is a criminal offence) and were correctly offered the normal option to resolve issues where a passenger has made a genuine mistake, which is a Penalty Fare.

I think, as often happens, this distinction is not made clear to the passenger. PFs are often dished out along the lines of "you're a fare evader, you have to pay this fine now", which quite reasonably tends to invoke a response of "no I'm not, and I'm not paying". It would be fairer to be told "you have made a mistake, there is a charge of £x to cover the travel you have made. Alternatively we will prosecute you under laws which do not require any evidence of intent to avoid the fare".

So many of the threads in this forum could have been avoided if the protagonist had been made aware of the alternative to a PF.

 

[sarahj]

As I say to passengers with Oyster etc heading to Gatwick, 'you can either pay me £5.20* for the fare from East Croydon, or you can pay £20 when you get to Gatwick'. 99% pay up.

The general rule of thumb is once you pass the M25, Oyster is not valid. I know this does not work on some lines like the Met, but most get it, and I'm not checking tickets on the Met.





* or whatever it is this week.

 

[andykn]

As I say to passengers with Oyster etc heading to Gatwick, 'you can either pay me £5.20* for the fare from East Croydon, or you can pay £20 when you get to Gatwick'. 99% pay up.

The general rule of thumb is once you pass the M25, Oyster is not valid. I know this does not work on some lines like the Met, but most get it, and I'm not checking tickets on the Met.

* or whatever it is this week.

The problem seems to be that Contactless is advertised as "You can use your contactless payment card to travel on Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and most National Rail services in London, as well as on buses."

So you can use it to go to London City Airport, but not London Gatwick Airport but you can for London Heathrow Airport but not London Luton Airport and you can use it for Croydon Airport even though that's not London Croydon Airport.

Hope that's clear enough.

 

[sarahj]

The problem seems to be that Contactless is advertised as "You can use your contactless payment card to travel on Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and most National Rail services in London, as well as on buses."

So you can use it to go to London City Airport, but not London Gatwick Airport but you can for London Heathrow Airport but not London Luton Airport and you can use it for Croydon Airport even though that's not London Croydon Airport.

Hope that's clear enough.

People turn up at Brighton with oysters, freedom passes, and these days contactless cards (not the key).


The OP says they ride a motorbike, so they (hopefully) know a bit about geography and that Gatwick is a bit of a way outside of London. for tourists, yes, there might be some come confusion, but I dont think the Op is a tourist.
As a note every underground station and most overground stations, and many outside the zones have clear maps as well marking the zones.

And TBh, i dont even get the tourist bit, ive been a tourist. I look at the maps, I see where my tickets are valid to. Its quite easy to know that your munich city ticket is not valid to Garmish. So to expect an announcement at Tutzing to say so, would be odd.

 

[Clip]

And TBh, i dont even get the tourist bit, ive been a tourist. I look at the maps, I see where my tickets are valid to. Its quite easy to know that your munich city ticket is not valid to Garmish. So to expect an announcement at Tutzing to say so, would be odd.

Yes but over here we need to mollycoddle people so that they don't have to think for themselves.

even though those same people then complain about too many announcements made on the train!!

 

[Via Bank]

People turn up at Brighton with oysters, freedom passes, and these days contactless cards (not the key).


The OP says they ride a motorbike, so they (hopefully) know a bit about geography and that Gatwick is a bit of a way outside of London. for tourists, yes, there might be some come confusion, but I dont think the Op is a tourist.
As a note every underground station and most overground stations, and many outside the zones have clear maps as well marking the zones.

And TBh, i dont even get the tourist bit, ive been a tourist. I look at the maps, I see where my tickets are valid to. Its quite easy to know that your munich city ticket is not valid to Garmish. So to expect an announcement at Tutzing to say so, would be odd.

Not really the same thing, though, are they? To all intents and purposes, Gatwick, Luton, Stansted and Southend are advertised as being 'London airports.' Not tourist resorts outside London.

True, there are notices on the CIS (not particularly clear notices, at that) stating that Oyster/Contactless aren't valid beyond East Croydon or Elstree and Borehamwood—but how is someone unfamiliar with the system (or indeed someone with poor geography) supposed to know where those are in relation to Gatwick or Luton?

As far as I'm concerned the signs should explicitly state "YOU CANNOT USE OYSTER OR CONTACTLESS TO GET TO GATWICK OR LUTON AIRPORT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO THE AIRPORT YOU NEED TO BUY A PAPER TICKET."

(Yes, I know that Oyster/CPC support will be available at Gatwick and Luton relatively soon—this is the ideal solution, and frankly it's an embarrassment that it hasn't been done sooner.)

 

[Clip]

Not really the same thing, though, are they? To all intents and purposes, Gatwick, Luton, Stansted and Southend are advertised as being 'London airports.' Not tourist resorts outside London.

In fairness that is not the fault of the railways. If airports want to brand themselves as something they are not then that's up to them to ensure that their travellers area aware they are not in London.

 

[andykn]

People turn up at Brighton with oysters, freedom passes, and these days contactless cards (not the key).


The OP says they ride a motorbike, so they (hopefully) know a bit about geography and that Gatwick is a bit of a way outside of London. for tourists, yes, there might be some come confusion, but I dont think the Op is a tourist.
As a note every underground station and most overground stations, and many outside the zones have clear maps as well marking the zones.

And TBh, i dont even get the tourist bit, ive been a tourist. I look at the maps, I see where my tickets are valid to. Its quite easy to know that your munich city ticket is not valid to Garmish. So to expect an announcement at Tutzing to say so, would be odd.

The TfL statement makes no mention of these zone things you speak of.

 

[Clip]

They do however tell you what National rail services they are valid on

National Rail

Contactless payment cards will be accepted on:

All suburban trains stopping in Zones 1-9 and on journeys to:
•Brentwood
•Broxbourne
•Chafford Hundred
•Grays
•Ockendon
•Purfleet
•Shenfield
•Watford Junction

But not on:
•Heathrow Express
•Heathrow Connect services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow
•Southeastern high speed services between St Pancras International and Stratford International
•Any journey starting or finishing outside Zones 1-9 or beyond Broxbourne, Grays, Shenfield or Watford Junction

 

[archwaykid]

People turn up at Brighton with oysters, freedom passes, and these days contactless cards (not the key).

The OP says they ride a motorbike, so they (hopefully) know a bit about geography and that Gatwick is a bit of a way outside of London. for tourists, yes, there might be some come confusion, but I dont think the Op is a tourist.
As a note every underground station and most overground stations, and many outside the zones have clear maps as well marking the zones.

And TBh, i dont even get the tourist bit, ive been a tourist. I look at the maps, I see where my tickets are valid to. Its quite easy to know that your munich city ticket is not valid to Garmish. So to expect an announcement at Tutzing to say so, would be odd.

Thanks for your comment.

Sorry I don't expect an announcement (or mollycoddle as one put it) but want the TFL and the Rail (including staff) to be more clear about the use of the use of the Contactless. And most of London's busy workforce would expect the same too. Perhaps they don't have the time to sit and research for what should be a straight forward journey to Gatwick!

I would definitely expect some manner of discretion from the GTR staff too. I ride a motorcycle but this does not mean I am aware of the extended map of England. I limit my travel to North London. To work and back and that's it.

Also if the message was that crystal clear (which it nowhere is near to Germany having lived in Berlin myself), why do you have 3-4 GTR staff at the turnstiles issuing penalties. Because it's a money making scam that's why!
Also, the German rail/ metro staff are perhaps the most polite I have ever met.

GTR are like that annoying salesman who's sold you a product and then when you take it back to them saying it doesn't work, refer you to the T&C's.

For all the rest who have rather politely advised, I thank you once again.

I have paid the fine. Doesn't mean I'll be quiet on this.

 

[archwaykid]

Not really the same thing, though, are they? To all intents and purposes, Gatwick, Luton, Stansted and Southend are advertised as being 'London airports.' Not tourist resorts outside London.

True, there are notices on the CIS (not particularly clear notices, at that) stating that Oyster/Contactless aren't valid beyond East Croydon or Elstree and Borehamwood—but how is someone unfamiliar with the system (or indeed someone with poor geography) supposed to know where those are in relation to Gatwick or Luton?

As far as I'm concerned the signs should explicitly state "YOU CANNOT USE OYSTER OR CONTACTLESS TO GET TO GATWICK OR LUTON AIRPORT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO THE AIRPORT YOU NEED TO BUY A PAPER TICKET."

(Yes, I know that Oyster/CPC support will be available at Gatwick and Luton relatively soon—this is the ideal solution, and frankly it's an embarrassment that it hasn't been done sooner.)

Thank you mate. Great point.

 

[FOH]

The problem seems to be that Contactless is advertised as "You can use your contactless payment card to travel on Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and most National Rail services in London, as well as on buses."

So you can use it to go to London City Airport, but not London Gatwick Airport but you can for London Heathrow Airport but not London Luton Airport and you can use it for Croydon Airport even though that's not London Croydon Airport.

Hope that's clear enough.

But you aren't buying tickets to airports, you are buying tickets to railway stations, of the ones you cite only London City Airport has the word London in the name. There is no ambiguity.

 

[CC 72100]

And TBh, i dont even get the tourist bit, ive been a tourist. I look at the maps, I see where my tickets are valid to. Its quite easy to know that your munich city ticket is not valid to Garmish. So to expect an announcement at Tutzing to say so, would be odd.

Indeed - oh look, these stations feature on the same map, yet appear to be out of the shaded 'Zone 5' area with no 'Zone 6' shading. Given that Paris region only has 5 zones, I presume that these stations are indeed not covered by my all zone pass.

No announcements. No special PIS. Just a good old fashioned paper map stuck above the doors that I could be bothered to decipher. And to be honest, the 'your pass is not valid beyond station x' was so small to read, it was pointless, the map showing it very clearly.

 

[Class377]

The problem seems to be that Contactless is advertised as "You can use your contactless payment card to travel on Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and most National Rail services in London, as well as on buses."

So you can use it to go to London City Airport, but not London Gatwick Airport but you can for London Heathrow Airport but not London Luton Airport and you can use it for Croydon Airport even though that's not London Croydon Airport.

Hope that's clear enough.

To make it even more confusing though, it's not always valid to Heathrow, it depends on the mode of transport you take to get there!

 

[andykn]

But you aren't buying tickets to airports, you are buying tickets to railway stations, of the ones you cite only London City Airport has the word London in the name. There is no ambiguity.

A fine distinction not necessarily noticed by the contactless traveller who doesn't buy a ticket.

 

[CC 72100]

To make it even more confusing though, it's not always valid to Heathrow, it depends on the mode of transport you take to get there!

Anomalies like this exist abroad too - La Défense is treated as being in zone 1 when travelling on a metro only ticket in Paris, but in reality is in zone 3 and so to be accessed via suburban railway (RER) would require either an RER station-to-station ticket or a zones 1-3 pass.

 

[londonbridge]

(Yes, I know that Oyster/CPC support will be available at Gatwick and Luton relatively soon—this is the ideal solution, and frankly it's an embarrassment that it hasn't been done sooner.)

I know of the proposals/plans for Oyster availability at Gatwick, but not Luton-when is the latter scheduled for?

 

[neilmc]

Last time I flew with EasyJet I looked through their in-flight magazine which detailed the cost of reaching various city centres from their respective airports and when I got to London I just wanted to crawl under the seat in embarrassment at being British. I suppose it's partly the air industry's fault for pretending that Gatwick or Stansted are anywhere in the vicinity of London, or maybe London's fault for just being so big.

Fortunately many regional UK airports such as Liverpool and Manchester are within city limits so "normal" city transport costs are charged, but to think you can use a London-based pass to get to "London" Gatwick would be quite understandable for someone who's from overseas or not very transport-savvy.

 

[telstarbox]

On balance, the settlement sounds like a result for the OP.