Summons for failing to submit a rail ticket??

[DeeGee]

There are many ways things are communicated 'simply' to people in this country that frankly a visiting tourist cannot possibly expect to understand. The BR arrows as the universal shorthand for "railway station" being the biggest one.

I was travelling from Milton Keynes to Maidstone on Friday, via the good old M1. There was a flashing sign up advising of delays on the A303, and informing me of the location of the delays by telling me the number of the road that was crossing the A303 at that point. Of course, I knew that I wasn't due to travel on that road, but if I was, I'd have no idea where the A360 or whatever it was is. Chuck the word "Salisbury" into the mix, however...

I wouldn't expect a visiting tourist to have the slightest idea what an Oyster card, or a Pop card, or a The Key card or whatever was, although it would be fair to suggest that a visiting Dutch tourist might just think that any one of those devices would be valid for travel anywhere in the UK.

There is just too much assumption going on that everyone visiting our country (or indeed, in the case of London, our city), just gets all the little parochial references that are unique to our systems.

It really needs people who have travelled widely to take a look at signposting and stuff and point out where we're going wrong.

Yes, it is fair to expect people to do their research properly before travelling, but that research needs the benefit of clear and unambiguous information that can be understood by people with a less than perfect command of English or understanding of our "cultural" references.

 

[bb21]

There is a problem here: if the gates accept a ticket, that creates the impression to the passenger that their ticket is valid (see also: people caught on out-of-time Advance tickets, who then complain "but it worked the gates!")

Imagine you're a foreign visitor who knows nothing about public transport. You want to go to Penzance. You're not sure which zone Penzance is in, but you give it a go—surely the barrier will reject your Zone 1-6 Travelcard if it isn't valid? Of course, you put your ticket in, and the gates swing open, welcomingly, with the word "ENTER" displayed in bold, inviting text.

I have seen people trying to use Travelcards to get on buses and trains outside London before, and being shocked when they are told they need to buy another ticket.

There is nothing whatsoever to indicate to a tourist or someone unfamiliar with public transport that a Travelcard is only valid in London (and even then not valid on certain trains to 'London' Heathrow, or to 'London' Gatwick, Luton etc.) 'Zones 1-6' might mean anything. As for the roundel—to someone who doesn't take public transport, that might as well be the Egyptian hieroglyph for the sun god Ra.

What is needed is for Travelcards to be printed with the words LONDON TRAVELCARD, and for big signs to be hung at the termini: "TRAVELCARDS, OYSTER AND CONTACTLESS CARDS NOT VALID FURTHER THAN [boundary station]."

(Or, of course, a properly integrated, simple pay-as-you-go bus and rail fares system for the whole country, but that's never going to happen, is it?)

I can understand people mistakenly assuming Gatwick Airport being in London, but Penzance? Sorry but that is ridiculous.

If you went to an unfamiliar country, you should at least do some basic research on tickets, and if not, enquire with staff. You do not just assume that a ticket printed with "London Zones 1-6" would be valid anywhere in the country. If you did so without any reasonable justification, you deserve any correctly-issued penalty thrown at you imo for the sheer stupidity.

That said, I do agree that "London Day Travelcard" would be even clearer than "Day Travelcard".

 

[Agent_c]

What is needed is for Travelcards to be printed with the words LONDON TRAVELCARD, and for big signs to be hung at the termini: "TRAVELCARDS, OYSTER AND CONTACTLESS CARDS NOT VALID FURTHER THAN [boundary station]."

How many boundary stations are there?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

If you went to an unfamiliar country, you should at least do some basic research on tickets, and if not, enquire with staff.

In most countries, using the local public transport is full of snares for the unwary. Whilst often cheaper than taxis or tour buses, it does come with the hazard of being caught out by some obscure local rule or convention.

 

[island]

There is a problem here: if the gates accept a ticket, that creates the impression to the passenger that their ticket is valid (see also: people caught on out-of-time Advance tickets, who then complain "but it worked the gates!")

Imagine you're a foreign visitor who knows nothing about public transport. You want to go to Penzance. You're not sure which zone Penzance is in, but you give it a go—surely the barrier will reject your Zone 1-6 Travelcard if it isn't valid? Of course, you put your ticket in, and the gates swing open, welcomingly, with the word "ENTER" displayed in bold, inviting text.

I have seen people trying to use Travelcards to get on buses and trains outside London before, and being shocked when they are told they need to buy another ticket.

There is nothing whatsoever to indicate to a tourist or someone unfamiliar with public transport that a Travelcard is only valid in London (and even then not valid on certain trains to 'London' Heathrow, or to 'London' Gatwick, Luton etc.) 'Zones 1-6' might mean anything. As for the roundel—to someone who doesn't take public transport, that might as well be the Egyptian hieroglyph for the sun god Ra.

What is needed is for Travelcards to be printed with the words LONDON TRAVELCARD, and for big signs to be hung at the termini: "TRAVELCARDS, OYSTER AND CONTACTLESS CARDS NOT VALID FURTHER THAN [boundary station]."

(Or, of course, a properly integrated, simple pay-as-you-go bus and rail fares system for the whole country, but that's never going to happen, is it?)

This is taking things to absurdity. Not least because the ticket gates at Paddington platforms 2-5 don't accept Oyster or Travelcards. And if your notice saying that Travelcards etc. aren't valid beyond West Drayton did appear, you'd be complaining that to tourists/visitors/irregular transport users, West Drayton might as well be Ouagadougou for all they know of the area.

If you're unsure, you ask someone (or find out in advance). I do it when I'm in Japan, or France, or wherever else I might have cause to use public transport.

 

[afriedl]

If you'd like the American POV on potential UK/London travel difficulties...

Probably the biggest difference from any North American service I've taken is the way London's payment card can be used on commuter and intercity services within a certain area. For instance, you can get from midtown Manhattan to Brooklyn on either the subway or the Long Island Railroad, a commuter service that (as its name suggests) covers much of Long Island. The MetroCard that you'd use on the subway isn't valid on the LIRR, even though both ends of an intracity LIRR journey are likely to be adjacent to subway stations where the MetroCard is valid.

The other side of that coin is that I've never been on any service outside of the London area where a method of payment is only valid for part of a route. I quite liked not only being able to use the train from Wembley Stadium to Marylebone for a normal Oyster fare but also having a free transfer when I arrived. I do think they did a good job of communicating that Oyster wasn't valid past Wembley Stadium in the prerecorded announcements on the outbound service, but I can't even begin to speak to all the other services running from London.

All that said, I managed to do just fine in London by doing plenty of research ahead of time. I can see where people who are unwilling or unable to do that level of research might've run into difficulty, but...I suppose it's the age-old tradeoff between simplicity and flexibility, with the whole Oyster-compatible system coming down firmly on the latter side.

 

[najaB]

Imagine you're a foreign visitor who knows nothing about public transport. You want to go to Penzance. You're not sure which zone Penzance is in, but you give it a go—surely the barrier will reject your Zone 1-6 Travelcard if it isn't valid? Of course, you put your ticket in, and the gates swing open, welcomingly, with the word "ENTER" displayed in bold, inviting text.

I know you're arguing ad absurdum but the flaw in this argument is that nobody I know of would assume that because the gate opened, their ticket was valid to literally everywhere. If it opened a gate that said 'Penzance' or if only Penzance trains used that platform then I might agree, but it's a huge and non-logical jump for a passenger to assume that access to the platform grants you access to any station in the UK that is reachable from that platform.

 

[maniacmartin]

All that is required is a banner on all their websites (including TFL)

None of the trains that go to Gatwick are operated by TfL, nor are their operators in a position to dictate to TfL what goes on TfL's website. TfL are pushing Contactless really hard, and I doubt they will want to advertise its downfalls.

Moreover, a friend of mine was stung by this 'Gatwick penalty'. And so was a work colleague of mine. I commute by motorbike but they have rail passes.
One is a tech-advisor and the other a senior project manager by vocation.

I agree that it can be confusing to visitors and tourists, but your argument doesn't really work when you are referring to people who live, commute and work in London, who I would expect to be a bit more familiar with the geography of the local area.

There were/ are contactless tabs at the exit point (obviously decorative)

They most likewly for Southern's 'the key' Smartcard, which is different to Oyster. As you would not have spotted these until after you arrived at Gatwick, you can't use this as an excuse for not buying the correct ticket at the start of the journey.

along with a posse of ticket inspectors. It felt a lot like a trap, and one of them even seemed to agree that the journey being plannable on tfl was confusing.

That sadly does not negate the fact that you didn't have a valid ticket.

As for a day in court - If the court date/ location was based in London, I would be happy to present my case to the clerk/ panel. The fact that they have their summons in West Sussex at an un-earthly hour of 9:30 am (in terms of commuting) is a deterrent in terms of going ahead with prosecutions.
I will not miss work days for this.

That's probably for the best, as if prosecuted under the Railway Byelaws, it is a strict liability offence which you would be almost certain to be found guilty of

Very importantly the stress of dealing with it. The reason we went on our 'holiday' to the US was to see my ailing family member who is actually being treated for cancer. The stress of which has affected my family enough already. And the rudeness of the GTR officials at Gatwick just riled us even more. Which is why we refused to pay the penalty in the first place. As there was no discretion shown and the inspectors accused us of fare dodging/ travelling without a ticket without hearing our side of the story.
One would expect a certain level of courtesy shown irrespective of the personal stress anybody is in!!

This isn't relevant at all. However, discretion was shown, as you were offered a Penalty Fare, rather than the matter being sent straight to prosecution

I'm sorry that this is not what you want to hear

 

[island]

I don't see what aspect of your "story" that you wanted the authorised collector to "listen to" would have affected the outcome of your case – it was appropriate therefore for him to deal with you as quickly as possible in order to not delay other customers.

 

[DaleCooper]

Imagine you're a foreign visitor who knows nothing about public transport. You want to go to Penzance. You're not sure which zone Penzance is in, but you give it a go—surely the barrier will reject your Zone 1-6 Travelcard if it isn't valid? Of course, you put your ticket in, and the gates swing open, welcomingly, with the word "ENTER" displayed in bold, inviting text.

I would think that any foreign visitor wishing to go to Penzance would have discovered that it is 300 or so miles from London.

 

[NSEFAN]

A certain airport advertises itself as "London Prestwick", does that mean that Scotrail will need to start putting up posters about Oyster validity too?

 

[bb21]

A certain airport advertises itself as "London Prestwick", does that mean that Scotrail will need to start putting up posters about Oyster validity too?

Whoever came up with such a name should be done for false advertising, same for "London Oxford Airport", or "London Ashford Airport", or "London Southend Airport" to name a few others.

 

[najaB]

Whoever came up with such a name should be done for false advertising, same for "London Oxford Airport", or "London Ashford Airport", or "London Southend Airport" to name a few others.

I believe it was Ryanair who did it as a attention seeking exercise, rather than the airport itself. Given that it's owned by the Scottish Government I doubt they would want to play up any connection to London.

 

[Clip]

There is a problem here: if the gates accept a ticket, that creates the impression to the passenger that their ticket is valid (see also: people caught on out-of-time Advance tickets, who then complain "but it worked the gates!")

Imagine you're a foreign visitor who knows nothing about public transport. You want to go to Penzance. You're not sure which zone Penzance is in, but you give it a go—surely the barrier will reject your Zone 1-6 Travelcard if it isn't valid? Of course, you put your ticket in, and the gates swing open, welcomingly, with the word "ENTER" displayed in bold, inviting text.

I have seen people trying to use Travelcards to get on buses and trains outside London before, and being shocked when they are told they need to buy another ticket.

There is nothing whatsoever to indicate to a tourist or someone unfamiliar with public transport that a Travelcard is only valid in London (and even then not valid on certain trains to 'London' Heathrow, or to 'London' Gatwick, Luton etc.) 'Zones 1-6' might mean anything. As for the roundel—to someone who doesn't take public transport, that might as well be the Egyptian hieroglyph for the sun god Ra.

What is needed is for Travelcards to be printed with the words LONDON TRAVELCARD, and for big signs to be hung at the termini: "TRAVELCARDS, OYSTER AND CONTACTLESS CARDS NOT VALID FURTHER THAN [boundary station]."

(Or, of course, a properly integrated, simple pay-as-you-go bus and rail fares system for the whole country, but that's never going to happen, is it?)

you really really are clutching at straws here. I am properly amazed that someone has actually written this whole amount of rubbish and truly believes in it.

I mean its not like travelcards don't have the words 'Valid within the zones indicated' on it does it? Oh no...

And yet many many people who are not remotely interested in the railways like forum members still manage to travel to foreign countries and manage to use their public transport systems correctly but here it is apparently far too difficult for the poor foreigners.

My mind never fails to be blown with some posts on here.

 

[Spamcan81]

you really really are clutching at straws here. I am properly amazed that someone has actually written this whole amount of rubbish and truly believes in it.

I mean its not like travelcards don't have the words 'Valid within the zones indicated' on it does it? Oh no...

And yet many many people who are not remotely interested in the railways like forum members still manage to travel to foreign countries and manage to use their public transport systems correctly but here it is apparently far too difficult for the poor foreigners.

My mind never fails to be blown with some posts on here.

On my first visit to Germany I bought the correct ticket from Düren to Köln but failed to realise that I had to validate it before boarding the train. Fortunately the RPO was kind enough to explain what I'd done wrong and how to correct it rather than grip me for having an invalid ticket. I wonder how a similar situation in the UK would e dealt with.

 

[Flamingo]

On my first visit to Germany I bought the correct ticket from Düren to Köln but failed to realise that I had to validate it before boarding the train. Fortunately the RPO was kind enough to explain what I'd done wrong and how to correct it rather than grip me for having an invalid ticket. I wonder how a similar situation in the UK would e dealt with.

If it was a German tourist, in the same way.

 

[Clip]

On my first visit to Germany I bought the correct ticket from Düren to Köln but failed to realise that I had to validate it before boarding the train. Fortunately the RPO was kind enough to explain what I'd done wrong and how to correct it rather than grip me for having an invalid ticket. I wonder how a similar situation in the UK would e dealt with.

Flamingo has answered however that doesn't absolve you from any personal responsibility to discover these things for yourself when you travel.

I had the same in Athens but luckily saw the machines just as I was entering.

 

[Greenback]

Most railway employees, in my experience, whether here or abroad, do show discretion to people who appear to be tourists or visitors. I have experienced this in the Netherlands and France, and I've witnessed it here in the UK, too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it was a German tourist, in the same way.

OTOH if it's on the buses in Bucharest don't expect any discretion even if you screw up the very odd "two people on one ticket" touch-in process. It appears the inspectors are generally older ladies who appear to act independently, being sold the PF "tickets" which they then sell on for a profit - and are very sure to ensure they do "sell" them.

In the Netherlands and Switzerland (IC/IR services with guards only - there is *no* discretion on regional services I believe) tourists often get "I can't solve it, but if you get off at the next stop and solve it there we will leave it at that".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many boundary stations are there?

It might be worth mentioning the German approach, which is that the departure board will usually have something in the notes column like "im HVV bis Bergedorf" (within the Hamburg "PTE" ticketing system until Bergedorf). It wouldn't seem unduly difficult that something similar should be entered on the PIS in the UK, though the wording would need some consideration for cases like Watford Junction where Oyster PAYG is valid but inboundary Travelcards aren't.

 

[DeeGee]

"Oyster card valid on this train until Watford Junction"

Use the PIS and departure boards to give specific information instead of having unnecessary extra signage at gatelines.

That "im HVV bis Bergedorf" message is useless to a non-local. It's poor practice to use local abbreviations for stuff like that. I wouldn't be able to look it up in a dictionary, would I?

 

[Greenback]

I don't think that infrequent Oyster users such as myself find the system any easier than well informed overseas visitors.

If I were to visit London tomorrow, I wouldn't really have a clue where Oyster was valid on National Rail. I'd have to consult a map at the very least in order to identify whether my journey would be covered or not.

I imagine there are plenty of Londoners who would be in a similar position, being irregular users of Oyster. They will need to do some basic checks as well, rather than make assumptions, or they will come a cropper.

 

[archwaykid]

Well, you'd hate Hong Kong.

I paid for a Big Mac, used a Coca-Cola vending machine, made a phone call to the UK, then travelled on a ship to a foreign country using my MTR Octopus Card.

Proves the uses for them are potentially limitless.

Brilliant mate.

These penalties just contribute to the rip-off Britain tag. We are used to it I guess and mostly because people (arguing for GTR) in this case have accepted it.

Sorry all (for those arguing for GTR), as much as I appreciate most of your time to post comments, the fact remains that travelling to 'London' Gatwick (it is in London according to the airport authorities http://www.gatwickairport.com/) just isn't clear enough.
As an Englishman and a Londoner, I don't understand this still. Travelling in London is a doddle but the use of the Oyster card/ Contactless is still a grey area at his point in time.

It then becomes the responsibility of the GTR to be absolutely clear about this because people use their service. But as I said earlier, they aren't going to be because of this £300/hour cash-cow. Certainly helps pay a fair few wages.

 

[DaleCooper]

Brilliant mate.

These penalties just contribute to the rip-off Britain tag. We are used to it I guess and mostly because people (arguing for GTR) in this case have accepted it.

Sorry all (for those arguing for GTR), as much as I appreciate most of your time to post comments, the fact remains that travelling to 'London' Gatwick (it is in London according to the airport authorities http://www.gatwickairport.com/) just isn't clear enough.
As an Englishman and a Londoner, I don't understand this still. Travelling in London is a doddle but the use of the Oyster card/ Contactless is still a grey area at his point in time.

It then becomes the responsibility of the GTR to be absolutely clear about this because people use their service. But as I said earlier, they aren't going to be because of this £300/hour cash-cow. Certainly helps pay a fair few wages.

This is the way we who take responsibilty for our lives take advantage of those who still need their mother to remind them when to breathe.

 

[Greenback]

I take responsibility for myself in finding out what I need to do to make a journey, anywhere in the world, not just London. I want to know for myself how much I'll have to pay, how I can pay it, whether I need a ticket or a smartcard, whether I need to validate anything, and what might happen if I do something wrong.

To rely on someone else telling me what I can and can't do without making an effort myself is just asking for trouble. I don't think anyone can really complain if they haven't made any attempt to find things out for themselves.

 

[DeeGee]

I've just had an amble around the TfL website. I want to know under what circumstances I need to get an Oyster card for my 5 year old son.

Googled "Child Oyster Card", which took me to a TfL Visitor Shop site called "Travelling with Children". This did not contain the info I needed but did contain a link "Find out more about 5-10 Oyster Photocards". If you follow that, there's a "Page not found" error.

So I used the menu system to find another section on "Travelling with Children" which implied that I don't need an Oyster Card for my son except on a certain number of local train services. It describes these train services as "Red" and "Green" and says I need an Oyster Card to travel on "Green" routes. There's a link for a map of Red and Green Routes, but this link goes to "Page not found".

So, logically, I go to maps, find a map called London's Rail and Tube services.

There's a green-coloured line on that map, which goes to Gatwick Airport!

Now, I know that that's wrong, but it isn't beyond the realms of impossibility that even an intelligent person, confronted with that information, might believe that a Child-Rate Oyster card allows a child to travel free on the Southern Trains service to Gatwick.

So, the information that is provided for visitors to London, or people that do not use the system, is not clear. It really needs looking at.

Although I have just found out that there is a Child Rate National Rail Photocard that I need to get for the boy now...

 

[Greenback]

I take your point. There's clearly an issue there, and I'm not a fan of TfL's website, which can be difficult to use tog et the information you're looking for.

I would be sympathetic to anyone who had taken the trouble to investigate something and come to an incorrect conclusion because of the way the information they found was presented. I do think that there is a big difference between trying to do some research, and being confounded, and simply making assumptions about what can and can't be done. I have much less sympathy for cases of the latter.

 

[Via Bank]

Wow, I've kicked the hornet's nest here, I can see…

you really really are clutching at straws here. I am properly amazed that someone has actually written this whole amount of rubbish and truly believes in it.

I am sorry you feel I am talking rubbish, but this is what I have observed, time and time again—people getting caught out because the ticketing system is overly complex and restrictions aren't clearly advertised.

Clearly Penzance was a bad example since the gates at PAD are programmed to reject inboundary Travelcards, but how about Portsmouth? Woking? Reading? Egham? Windsor? Esher? Gatwick (if we can possibly bring this thread back onto topic)? People routinely get caught out here, either at the other end or on the train, with Travelcards, Oyster and contactless cards, because they see no reason why they wouldn't be valid. Indeed, many of these stations have touch pads with a design that is different, but superficially similar, to the Oyster reader. (I've seen people pointing at the validators at Brookwood, in Surrey, and saying "look! Oyster!")

It does not help that Oyster is valid to some stations "just outside" London, but not valid to others. Or that you can get to Staines, or to Redhill, by bus, but not by train when paying by Oyster/contactless! I understand why the system is like this, and just think it is disappointing that no attempt has been made to rationalise these borders.

I mean its not like travelcards don't have the words 'Valid within the zones indicated' on it does it? Oh no…

It took me exactly a minute to find an example which does not clearly state that the Travelcard is only valid in London. And let's not forget Oyster cards, which are valid to some stations "just outside" outside London, but not all. On the back of the Oyster it says "use only where you see [Oyster symbol]", which again isn't helpful if there are many stations where Oyster is not valid that have the confusingly similar ITSO touch pad design.

DeeGee has it right: these restrictions should be advertised on the CIS and PA at the termini and stations en route, and clearly on the on-board PIS.

Once again I am sorry if you feel I am producing straw man arguments, or deliberately being obtuse, but I maintain that if people are routinely getting caught out by the system (which, clearly, they are) then the ticketing system, or at least the way it is advertised to passengers, is defective.

 

[DaleCooper]

It took me exactly a minute to find an example which does not clearly state that the Travelcard is only valid in London.

It says "London Underground".
There is no Underground line to Gatwick is there?

 

[Via Bank]

It says "London Underground".
There is no Underground line to Gatwick is there?

But it's also valid on buses (some of which are outside London, but not all buses within London), and on the DLR, and London Overground, and some, but not all National Rail services within London. If they find it works on NR to (say) Wimbledon, what's to stop them assuming it would work to Gatwick?

Either way this is getting further away from OP's problem, which is that contactless payment wasn't accepted at Gatwick.

 

[DeeGee]

There is no Underground line to Gatwick is there?

On first glance, by an uninformed traveller, that ticket would only be valid for a day's travel on London Underground, possibly within 6 zones (or possibly only 6 times in the day!)

So they might buy a ticket that they didn't need for bus, tram, DLR or NR services within those zones. Again, not enough information. However, it would be fair to assume that someone buying one would have informd themselves as to what it was.

I got caught out in Paris last week. I used to live in the leafy-green suburbs to the north and speak the language fluently. Wanted a "Zones 1-2 Travelcard" for myself, the wife, and the boy. Child rate Mobilis Cards don't exist. But there was a ticket advertised on the TVM as "Ticket Jeunes" offering unlimited journeys for a day in Zones 1-3. So I bought it. Wasn't until I got to the barrier and it was rejected that I realised it was for a weekend only (and this was sold from a TVM on a Wednesday). Couldn't find ANY child fares on a TVM so had to buy an adult Mobilis for him. Still can't work out how much too much I ended up paying. Thankfully I sent him first into the barrier - I have no idea what would have happened if we'd both been through before him.