Sunday a ATW train free day again

[merlodlliw]

Most Rail companies WANT there staff to work a 24/7/365 type of roster........ F A C T !

Most Rail companies do not want to pay the staff affected any incentive to move to a 24/7/265 type of roster.

Despite most people thinking that the unions are not prepared to change, in most situations on this subject it is the companies themselves who are not prepared to change and are quite happy with that status quo.

Has as been mentioned XC was one company, the company i work for also took the same stand. Drivers on LO work a 24/7/365 type of roster, ALL other grades have the old BR Sundays not part of the working so therefore you are not obliged to work them. The question is why has one grade got what the public want and the rest havent?

Dont keep blaming us for a situation that arises on Arriva Train Wales.

#
Thanks all of you for your comments, it is hoped Senior Management at ATW
sort this out, however their track record does not give a lot of hope.
It can not be in the interests of anyone to allow this situation which shuts down the entire fleet of ATW trains on Sundays, and replace them with buses. It is also fact that a lot of services on Sunday are paid for by County Councils who themselves may find it cheaper to run buses in place of trains
EG HOWL, Cambrian Coast,Bidston etc if this continues.

 

[dan_atki]

No other toc seems to have this amount of total shutdown of rail

14 months ago, we had the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYbQS5DtihE

http://www.londonmidland.com/news/latest-news/london-midland-services-on-sunday-6-september/

There were also the severe problems with FCC a few months later: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/12/first-capital-connect-trains-cancelled

It's to do with the historic rights of contracts between TOCs and their staff.

 

[mumrar]

I admit - see is inflexibility in all parties, and unwillingness to embrace the social changes that virtually every other public-facing industry faced in the 80s

How is it all parties, all of the crew are willing to change to working Sundays, for a sensible trade-off on pay and conditions, the TOCs are not willing to pay this. That is unwillingness on one side only.

 

[Pumbaa]

How is it all parties, all of the crew are willing to change to working Sundays, for a sensible trade-off on pay and conditions, the TOCs are not willing to pay this. That is unwillingness on one side only.

I would agree with a trade-off on pay and conditions for most grades, with the exception of drivers, who would obviously still get a deal but not as substantial as guards and alike. I still feel their pay has been grossly over inflated since privatisation.

 

[scotsman]

I am afraid these two extracts say an awful lot to me. The industry is obviously still being run in 1970's mode, with "sides" and "blame" being the key words. What I - as a total outsider, I admit - see is inflexibility in all parties, and unwillingness to embrace the social changes that virtually every other public-facing industry faced in the 80s. Is it any wonder that the travelling public feel we are too often seen as the real enemy?

Haha! What 'industry'? I'm a volunteer clippie and Steward - I work on the railways to keep them running! I don't get paid and therefore have virtually no rights at all, I'm just standing up for the guys (or colleagues, depending on how you look at it) who've got a clear cut contract which they risk losing and not having any sort of regularity in their lives!

 

[richw]

Most Rail companies WANT there staff to work a 24/7/365 type of roster........ F A C T !
.

how about all new staff joining the company are put onto a 7 day week contract. would this create difficulties, within my company that i work, staff that started before a certain date get certain rights etc, that people who started after that date dont get, change in terms and conditions of employment can be changed for new starters against that the existing staff are already employed under,

 

[313103]

I would agree with a trade-off on pay and conditions for most grades, with the exception of drivers, who would obviously still get a deal but not as substantial as guards and alike. I still feel their pay has been grossly over inflated since privatisation.

Affraid to say that the Drivers have already got a pay off in my company, so if the company want us to have the same deal as the drivers we would want at least the exact amount in cash terms, and in some cases more as drivers are on just about £20,000 more then there nearest in the pay scales (Drivers £44,000, Conductors £24,888, Station staff £19,000 to £21,500).

Perhaps that is why the company are reluctant to enter into negotiations, i dont know.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

(my bold)

The solution is simple. You either renegotiate the trancrew contracts to include sundays as part of the working week AND compensate them appropriately for the lost day, or give better incentives to staff to work their sundays. The TOCs know how to sort it but they won't as it will cost them money.



Whether its "silly" or not is irrelevant. The fact is traincrew are not obliged to work their sundays. I take it at your firm you don't have any time off then?

Sure I get time off. A Sunday worked equals a day off in the week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For all of those siding with the management here, just remember

1 - Crew may have days off at any point in the week, the sunday off is the only constant
2 - The agreement with many staff states that staff may not be obliged to work a sunday if they refuse not to.
3 - At a really basic level, there is absolutely no incentive to work sundays, you'll get the same salary whether you work 'em or take an extra day off.

Precisely. Ditch the extras, they can be used as consolidation by mangement to give a non-existant pay rise which is what B.R. did in the seventies with train crew mileage turns. Get everything on to your salary, they can't take it away and a percentage pay rise means a bigger percentage. You may be youn now but remember that you're on a final salary pension scheme that's based on basic salary, not overtime.

TOCs have tried to combat this with pay offers for a new agreement which would have sunday working, or decent overtime rates in return for sunday working.

.....

 

[43167]

I remember Midland Mainline drivers not working afew sundays, resulting in afew spare HST's of which Virgin hired a couple for the day on 1 of them.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

When you say 'organised by the unions', you have to bear in mind that no ballots or instructions are issued by the union, so it hardly is. Anyone is free to make helpful situations to help someone, or a group of someones, get their voices heard.

I am curious as to the job title and company/type of work that The Barlow Boy works for, after all, I can do any banking online 7 days a week, does this mean I should no expect all HSBC branch staff to work shifts covering 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There are plenty of people within companies who's business operate 7 days a week, who do not have to work on Sundays.

I'm not sure what you're getting at (should I be reading not or now for "...no expect all...."which is printed) but I bank with First Direct and the staff there (Leeds and Glasgow) work a roster over seven days. Some of the staff are part-timers who don't work Sundays as a rule but the full time staff are rostered over seven days.

 

[Failed Unit]

Remember unions would not allow different contracts for new starters and old timers, so you won't see new starters on 7 day contracts. It avoids divide and conquer and resentment between employees. Believe me from both sides you really don't want people doing the same job on different contracts.

 

[mumrar]

I'm not sure what you're getting at (should I be reading not or now for "...no expect all...."which is printed) but I bank with First Direct and the staff there (Leeds and Glasgow) work a roster over seven days. Some of the staff are part-timers who don't work Sundays as a rule but the full time staff are rostered over seven days.

So, you can go into your branch 7 days a week? It may not be a good example on my part, but my point is, if I'm told I don't have to work Sundays, and my contract says it, then that's the way it is. I welcome my employers to include Sunday in the working week, and I would have no qualms working them, but I want my salary to reflect the fact that they are compulsory, and not voluntary.

 

[TDK]

Sundays are not a part of the working week.

ATW's policy is or was, if you do not want to work your booked Sunday you must inform management 10 days before,if you do not ever want to work a booked sunday you must inform Management.

So, it is the choice of the drivers, not driven by the Union as the unions have an agreement with management that they will try to cover any Sundays uncovered the best they can, however ATW is now in dispute with ASLEF over pay and conditions and the drivers are being balloted for strike action, the drivers are letting Management know indirectly that they mean business by adopting their right not to work on a Sunday.

The unions have opposed Sundays in the working week in most cases and most drivers you speak to will agree that they want the option to have a Sunday off if required.

One other point you will find the trains that run are not driven by managers as this is not permittied within ATW, the trains run are being driven by drivers who want to work their Sundays, this will of course not do them any favours with their colleagues as they are not with the majority.

Any passengers inconvenienced should look at ATW management and not the drivers, ATW drivers are the lowest paid in the country and now ATW are owned by DB the ATW drivers are comparing their Salary with Chiltern, WSMR, Cross country and DB shenker and they don't like the difference in the Salaries. For instance I think Chiltern are on 42k where as I think ATW are on 32k. These figures are not exact, maybe someone could post the exact figures.

ATW drivers ahve been unhappy for a while with their managment and it was only a matter of time when something like this was bound to happen.

 

[Greenback]

I thought it was one of ASLEF's main aims to have Sundays inside the working week?

 

[313103]

I thought it was one of ASLEF's main aims to have Sundays inside the working week?

So did I, which is why they are in on London Overground!

 

[The Barlow Boy]

So, you can go into your branch 7 days a week? It may not be a good example on my part, but my point is, if I'm told I don't have to work Sundays, and my contract says it, then that's the way it is. I welcome my employers to include Sunday in the working week, and I would have no qualms working them, but I want my salary to reflect the fact that they are compulsory, and not voluntary.

You're saying what I've been suggesting for years. Don't have your Sunday pay as a "bonus", get it on to your salary, they can't take that away.

My bank has no branches, it's a telephone bank. It's called First Direct because it was set up by the then Midland bank (now HSBC) as the first direct call bank. I don't work for or represent them but I cannot recommend them highly enough. Imagine you're having problems with a shop swipe thingy rejecting your card at 18.34, you're hungry and you want something to eat and your hourly train goes in six minutes. That was me in Marks and Sparks on Leeds station last Tuesday. A swift telephone to the 24hour seven day a week bank (they're there on Christmas day) and all was resolved.

 

[merlodlliw]

Haha! What 'industry'? I'm a volunteer clippie and Steward - I work on the railways to keep them running! I don't get paid and therefore have virtually no rights at all, I'm just standing up for the guys (or colleagues, depending on how you look at it) who've got a clear cut contract which they risk losing and not having any sort of regularity in their lives!

Interesting comment scotsman, I take it you, like thousands of others volunteer with a Society, many of which have created jobs,Llangollen is now the largest employer in the town.
I take you volunteer on Sundays, the busiest day, no one is talking of losing,but ATW can not continue withdrawing every service week after week.

As for Drivers coming in on Sunday, I welcome TDKs input, he knows more than most being in the trade,however if Sunday is optional & drivers come in
then they should not be sent to Coventry, by a few militants who are present in every large undertaking. I had presumed ATW managers did drive trains, I am sure some did during the Newport golf Sunday.

I see no problem with new Drivers put on a 7 day rota, the excising ones could be red circled as happens in other industries who run 7 days. Yes perhaps it has to be bought out,
I have friends who are out of work through no fault of their own, they can not understand in 2010, how people in secure jobs refuse work,

 

[mumrar]

Not working Sunday is not refusing work, I already work 4 days a week, and rest days/Sundays as I choose for extra money, but not volunteering to work your day off is not refusing to work. How is this simple concept so hard to grasp?

 

[Greenback]

One of the reasons that TOC's do not want to bring Sundays into the working week is that they will need to employ extra drivers. This is more expensive than relying on goodwill, even at times when drivers don't want to work EXTRA hours and days and buses have to be run.

As we can see in this thread, many rail staff would not mind having Sundays inside the week, it's the TOC's that don't really want it. They are happy to put up with the complaints and blame the staff for not wanting to work overtime, which is what Sundays are in this situation. Again, they could also encourage train crew to work on their rest days by offering higher pay rates for RDW, but this costs money too so they don't want to do that either.

The fault is with the TOC's.

 

[Oswyntail]

Not working Sunday is not refusing work, I already work 4 days a week, and rest days/Sundays as I choose for extra money, but not volunteering to work your day off is not refusing to work. How is this simple concept so hard to grasp?

By the legal letter of your contract of employment, you are absolutely correct and within your rights. On the other hand, in the context of a service industry that operates seven days a week, so long as everything is done within the law (the Working Time directive), there is little justification for saying that any one day - in this case Sunday - is any different. You do seem - please correct me if I am wrong - to be refusing to consider any changes that would involve Sunday being considered a normal working day within the standard working week.

 

[Pumbaa]

By the legal letter of your contract of employment, you are absolutely correct and within your rights. On the other hand, in the context of a service industry that operates seven days a week, so long as everything is done within the law (the Working Time directive), there is little justification for saying that any one day - in this case Sunday - is any different. You do seem - please correct me if I am wrong - to be refusing to consider any changes that would involve Sunday being considered a normal working day within the standard working week.

That is the source of my irritation! Not mumrar, but other drivers (mostly ex BR) who cannot accept that Sundays should be part of the working week. Yes TOCs are at fault for not wanting to implement, but I know one TOC that does after speaking to their Commercial Director, and they feel that no matter what offer they put on the table, they're not going to get an agreement because drivers simply don't want to have to be rostered on a Sunday. Obviosuly theres a certain amount of corporate BS in there, but its causing them to lose a lot of money. By putting together a new package before 2011, they will save a lot even if it means higher paid salaries and more staff.

And that, in a 7-day industry, is quite frankly out of touch at the hands of the staff.

I'm sure you can guess which TOC that is... The deal runs out on 1st April IIRC.

 

[CarterUSM]

I've a 4 day week, averaging 35 hours each over the year, with a set rest day pattern of week 1, Monday, Tuesday. Week 2 , Wednesday, Thursday, and week 3, Friday and Saturday. It has taken long enough to get this nice shift pattern and weekly hours negotiated, and me and my colleagues rather like it, even if the turns themselves are generally longer than they used to be. Now, that sounds pretty selfish, but there were some concessions given up too such as a reduction on booking off time, and thete were some posts created by it also. What i dont get is, how is any of this the staffs fault?

 

[Pumbaa]

What i dont get is, how is any of this the staffs fault?

Because it takes two to tango. What you've just described is the sort of thing we need to see up and down the country, with Sundays being brought in as part of the working week.

 

[CarterUSM]

I omitted to mention that Sundays aren't part of my working week either, sorry! I just think if it was as important to the TOC's as made out, then they would negotiate it by hook or by crook. As far as i am aware, my company really has no interest in it anyway. But, there is no way it's the staffs fault. If they dont want to work a day they're not booked to, then thats that. Same goes for having Sundays part of the working week, whether it is seen as a ridiculous and outdated attitude by the staff or not, the fact is, they're not part of the working week, and it smacks a little of the green eyed monster by some to say they should be because "its a seven day service", or "the banks do this", “this company does that“, "i have to work this" etc.

 

[mr williams]

I am afraid these two extracts say an awful lot to me. The industry is obviously still being run in 1970's mode, with "sides" and "blame" being the key words. What I - as a total outsider, I admit - see is inflexibility in all parties, and unwillingness to embrace the social changes that virtually every other public-facing industry faced in the 80s. Is it any wonder that the travelling public feel we are too often seen as the real enemy?[/QUOTE]

Well said, the anger and frustration of the people who the rail network is supposedly for should be ignored at your peril. I am not, and never have been, connected to the rail industry in any way other than being a member of the "travelling public" and I despair of the bloody-mindedness I have seen from both management and unions. This has been going on for decades and shows no signs of ending. And don't you even think of replying with "but they started it..."

Every dispute, every stoppage, every cancelled train only gives more ammunition to the real enemy - the anti-rail lobby who are only too ready to portray the railways as inefficient and unworthy of investment, as any money spent will be mismanaged and wasted.

You deserve each other.

 

[mumrar]

You do seem - please correct me if I am wrong - to be refusing to consider any changes that would involve Sunday being considered a normal working day within the standard working week.

I will correct you, as you are wrong. I have said on more than one occassion in this thread, I am happy for Sunday to be considered part of the working week for a realistic return, my company are not. THAT IS NOT MY FAULT!

 

[TheBigD]

I omitted to mention that Sundays aren't part of my working week either, sorry! I just think if it was as important to the TOC's as made out, then they would negotiate it by hook or by crook. As far as i am aware, my company really has no interest in it anyway. But, there is no way it's the staffs fault. If they dont want to work a day they're not booked to, then thats that. Same goes for having Sundays part of the working week, whether it is seen as a ridiculous and outdated attitude by the staff or not, the fact is, they're not part of the working week, and it smacks a little of the green eyed monster by some to say they should be because "its a seven day service", or "the banks do this", “this company does that“, "i have to work this" etc.

Indeed. As I stated earlier on XC the management's position was that they did not consider it would benefit the business and that the current (voluntary) position was manageable. Was the same under Central Trains.

Having Sundays as part of your rostered hours/days would mean extra costs as you would have employed extra staff, or you would have to cut services as you wouldn't have enough crew to go round.

Having compulsory rostered Sundays where your paid overtime for the hours in addition to your 35hrs/4days would mean renegotiating contracts and would cost more money, unless the staff agree to change for free, which is unfair and unlikely! Staff, as well as shareholders and passengers should share the benefits of such a change.

I do not detect any great desire by the TOC's or the DfT to change the status quo.

 

[CarterUSM]

Indeed. As I stated earlier on XC the management's position was that they did not consider it would benefit the business and that the current (voluntary) position was manageable. Was the same under Central Trains.

Having Sundays as part of your rostered hours/days would mean extra costs as you would have employed extra staff, or you would have to cut services as you wouldn't have enough crew to go round.

Having compulsory rostered Sundays where your paid overtime for the hours in addition to your 35hrs/4days would mean renegotiating contracts and would cost more money, unless the staff agree to change for free, which is unfair and unlikely! Staff, as well as shareholders and passengers should share the benefits of such a change.

I do not detect any great desire by the TOC's or the DfT to change the status quo.

Exactly, nail on the head!

 

[tbtc]

I do not detect any great desire by the TOC's or the DfT to change the status quo.

I agree.

It'll be interesting to see whether the next "long" franchise (20 years +) decide to tackle this issue properly.

The trouble is that it'd take a long time to negotiate with everyone, to draft up contracts, to then get into the inevitable quibbles about other things which will be brought up by staff/ unions/ Head Office...

...nobody at TOCs seems to want to bite the bullet and take some short term pain to sort things out for the long term.

Sunday is a marginal day for passengers on some routes (a very busy day on Cross Country services), and its not in TOC's interests to have to pay double wages for the quietest day of the week on some lines.

Personally, I have no problem with weekend working (I did a shift on Sunday morning), but it makes the working week feel a lot longer, so if I was going to work Sundays then I'd want some time off on weekdays to compensate. Not unreasonable to me, but sadly unions/ staff/ companies can never negotiate on one simple thing - any negotaitions will be full of red herrings, diversionary tactics and the like (e.g. in the middle of discussion about treating Sunday as a normal work day, someone will suggest reforming the pension or changing the "clocking in" arrangements...)

Sadly the industry seems to prefer to struggle on with niggling short term problems, rather than seek long term resolution.

 

[cuccir]

Indeed. As I stated earlier on XC the management's position was that they did not consider it would benefit the business and that the current (voluntary) position was manageable. Was the same under Central Trains.

Having Sundays as part of your rostered hours/days would mean extra costs as you would have employed extra staff, or you would have to cut services as you wouldn't have enough crew to go round.

Having compulsory rostered Sundays where your paid overtime for the hours in addition to your 35hrs/4days would mean renegotiating contracts and would cost more money, unless the staff agree to change for free, which is unfair and unlikely! Staff, as well as shareholders and passengers should share the benefits of such a change.

I do not detect any great desire by the TOC's or the DfT to change the status quo.

Unfortunately I think you, and Greenback's similar comments above, are accurate. Unions are within every right to fight to retain any privilege or allowance that their workers have. TOCs should do more work to introduce Sundays as part of normal rostas and adequately compensate staff for this change, but in the meantime I suspect it's easier to blame unions whilst only making half an effort as the changes would be better for public service and not necessarily for profit!