Suspended jail for FCC driver after covering up of SPAD

[ComUtoR]

I know how to set up the CSR and ASLEF's statement serves to prove the point that the ORR is making if you wish to read it again with a less impassioned view.

IF you also take ASLEF's point that Scott set the Area Code (which i raised way back in the thread btw) Yo still have to accept that it says noting about him attempting to set it up correctly. Was he running late ? Did he punch in the area code and that's it ? Did he contact the Signalller to confirm ? Considering that the ORR made an issue of it then we can suspect that he didnt do anything more than punch in the area code. Making him at fault for his actions.

As Llama said. It all goes towards his actions in their entirety. Not as an isolated point.

To stop us going round in circles. I personally don't care about the CSR and will follow procedure to the letter. That means I am never going to be at fault. If they manage to change it then I'm happy, if not then I'm happy its still safe.

Scott made a serious error and put lives in danger. I'm glad hes not Driving my kids to school this morning.

 

[68000]

Yes, it was in the ASLEF link posted earlier.

so the first attempt to seek clarification from the ORR and possibily RSSB is to threaten delays on passengers. Toys out of the pram stuff from ASLEF and focus on the minor issue and ignore the real safety issue with the incident

 

[O L Leigh]

so the first attempt to seek clarification from the ORR and possibily RSSB is to threaten delays on passengers. Toys out of the pram stuff from ASLEF and focus on the minor issue and ignore the real safety issue with the incident

I think that's putting it a bit strongly. The purpose of Aslef's instructions is to safeguard their members. That there may be some delays as a consequence is an unfortunate by-product. However, the number of services that are likely to be affected is tiny.

Just out of interest if this was the case , given the danger posed by his train being out of control coupled with the fact that he was following an accepted procedure laid down by his TOC would the RAIB not report on the incident as well as there are then lessons that can be learnt about safety from this incident .

I wouldn't expect so, no. This was an incident not an accident.

As I understand it, the fact the CSR wasn't set up [to receive immediate point to point calls] compounded the effect of the driver resetting-&-continuing after a spad & TPWS intervention, only in so far as it took several seconds longer to communicate a stop message to him than it would otherwise have taken if he had set up the CSR to its full capability.

And it is very likely that this is the reason why the train proceeded as far as it did without authority, reaching a point of conflict before it could be stopped. This is probably why the SPAD scored so highly for risk and triggered the ORR's interest.

If he hadn't attempted to set up the radio when setting up the cab at Cambridge this could be used by prosecutors as some evidence of an attitude indifferent to compliance in general terms, perhaps weakening the driver's argument that the incident was a lapse and honest mistake in believing that the brake activation wasn't made by the TPWS, rather than a deliberate (whether conniving or through panic) attempt to evade the consequences of passing a signal.

Remember, this was a prosecution under health and safety law. Intent does not have to be proved. Also, failing to set-up the CSR does not necessarily prove that the incident wasn't a lapse or an honest mistake.

O L Leigh

 

[acepepper]

so the first attempt to seek clarification from the ORR and possibily RSSB is to threaten delays on passengers. Toys out of the pram stuff from ASLEF and focus on the minor issue and ignore the real safety issue with the incident

As I have already said, if this does happen I can assure you 100% that any delays to passengers will be minimal and barely noticed. This type of radio failure is rare and usually soon rectified.

As for the real safety issue with the incident, it's been sorted; the driver has lost his job and has a prison sentence. What more do you want?

 

[68000]

As I have already said, if this does happen I can assure you 100% that any delays to passengers will be minimal and barely noticed. This type of radio failure is rare and usually soon rectified.

I know how much delay and consequential delay happens at the moment due to drivers failing to register (for various reasons). That is why bulletin 21 was issued by ATOC, RSSB & NR. This proposed action from ASLEF will exacerbate the issue and all for public toys out of the pram show.

As for the real safety issue with the incident, it's been sorted; the driver has lost his job and has a prison sentence. What more do you want?

I want to know what ASLEF have proposed to do to protect their members from other drivers doing the same reset and go

 

[455driver]

IF you also take ASLEF's point that Scott set the Area Code (which i raised way back in the thread btw) Yo still have to accept that it says noting about him attempting to set it up correctly. Was he running late ? Did he punch in the area code and that's it ? Did he contact the Signalller to confirm ? Considering that the ORR made an issue of it then we can suspect that he didnt do anything more than punch in the area code. Making him at fault for his actions.

So you are making assumptions to prove your point! :roll:

 

[acepepper]

I know how much delay and consequential delay happens at the moment due to drivers failing to register (for various reasons). That is why bulletin 21 was issued by ATOC, RSSB & NR. This proposed action from ASLEF will exacerbate the issue and all for public toys out of the pram show.



I want to know what ASLEF have proposed to do to protect their members from other drivers doing the same reset and go

I don't understand what you want them to do, bearing in mind that driver training is the responsibility of TOC's not Unions??

 

[Llama]

Just a thought, and further to the RAIB question posts above, but it is noteworthy that this incident ended up in prosecution, and yet the Greenford double spad and incursion onto a single line has ended up with an RAIB investigation (report not published yet).

 

[ComUtoR]

So you are making assumptions to prove your point! :roll:

The whole point is we are ALL making assumptions.

Trying to place blame at the ORR is self serving. They will not of acted without due cause. Excuse me for actually having a modicum of faith that the regulator has well trained and knowledgeable people working for them. Both ASLEF and the ORR state quite clearly that his radio wasn't setup. He had no headcode but had the area code.

Do you really believe that if he followed the correct procedure it would have formed part of their case ? Thompsons would have ripped that apart in seconds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just a thought, and further to the RAIB question posts above, but it is noteworthy that this incident ended up in prosecution, and yet the Greenford double spad and incursion onto a single line has ended up with an RAIB investigation (report not published yet).

The spad at kent house that involved a reset and go and the train entered an occupied section... also did not end up with a prosecution.

 

[Llama]

Nor did the one at MN760, Manchester Victoria East Jn a few years ago that saw two trains heading towards each other on the same platform at Manchester Victoria, one legitimately and one after a reset-&-continue.

 

[acepepper]

The whole point is we are ALL making assumptions.

Trying to place blame at the ORR is self serving. They will not of acted without due cause. Excuse me for actually having a modicum of faith that the regulator has well trained and knowledgeable people working for them. Both ASLEF and the ORR state quite clearly that his radio wasn't setup. He had no headcode but had the area code.

Do you really believe that if he followed the correct procedure it would have formed part of their case ? Thompsons would have ripped that apart in seconds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The spad at kent house that involved a reset and go and the train entered an occupied section... also did not end up with a prosecution.

That driver also kept his job....briefly. Yes it is strange that a prosecution was brought in this case. A sign of things to come maybe. I wouldn't like to be starting as a new driver today, it's a far harder job than it used to be.

 

[ComUtoR]

That driver also kept his job....briefly.

Considering his actions put the passengers in danger I was stunned that Ra... kept his job. He went on to have other incidents. Maybe it is because drivers like him go on to have other incidents the ORR have decided to take further action. Also when they get involved paperwork doesn't go missing or get filled out incorrectly and various T's and I's do not get missed.

Flavor of the month is "Precursors"

 

[acepepper]

Considering his actions put the passengers in danger I was stunned that Ra... kept his job. He went on to have other incidents. Maybe it is because drivers like him go on to have other incidents the ORR have decided to take further action. Also when they get involved paperwork doesn't go missing or get filled out incorrectly and various T's and I's do not get missed.

Flavor of the month is "Precursors"

There wasn't a single driver I know who wanted him to keep it either. We all make mistakes but you get a sense for who can do the job and who can't.