DerekC
Established Member
If Crossrail 2 happens might there be pressure for Wimbledon main line calls, particularly if the Balham route is selected?
If Crossrail 2 happens might there be pressure for Wimbledon main line calls, particularly if the Balham route is selected?
I don’t think the study envisages extra Wimbledon calls as that would affect their track capacity calculations.I would suspect that there would be some extra calls, however likely to be limited in number, chances are most using Crossrail 2 would switch at Clapham Junction (assuming that's sorted so that all services can stop there).
I don’t think the study envisages extra Wimbledon calls as that would affect their track capacity calculations.
There might be pressure, but the whole idea is that Crossrail 2 is separate and traffic is moved so it splits between Crossrail 2 and the Northern Line, so no plans, currently, to let people from south of Woking use it for trips into central London.If Crossrail 2 happens might there be pressure for Wimbledon main line calls, particularly if the Balham route is selected?
Personally I see it as a kind of Thaneslink. So you can avoid changing trains in central London to get to somewhere else in London or beyond.There might be pressure, but the whole idea is that Crossrail 2 is separate and traffic is moved so it splits between Crossrail 2 and the Northern Line, so no plans, currently, to let people from south of Woking use it for trips into central London.
Personally I see it as a kind of Thaneslink. So you can avoid changing trains in central London to get to somewhere else in London or beyond.
Not to be speculative here, BUT it's a shame there is no NLE connection at Vauxhall, or short extension to Clapham Junction. An upgraded northern line at 30tph would and indeed could, be very useful for dispersing SWT and Southern passengers directly into Waterloo, the West End and up to Euston/St P/KX. At least as another route in, and potentially with a seat - even if a few mins slower.
I’m reasonably sure a NLE extension to Clapham Jn has been shown to overwhelm the Northern line in passenger modelling. Also it would have to be built in a way that won’t interfere with either Crossrail 2 or the station redevelopment, which is no mean feat.
I remember reading that it had been projected that Vauxhall would have been overwhelmed if the NLE had incorporated a stop there, hence the decision to build a separate station at Nine Elms which also spreads out the tube station catchment areas.It's just like Crossrail 1 - taking over a busy commuter route (Shenfield locals especially) - relieving a terminus and sending folks on a one-seat ride into the centre, relieving the tube.
As for the northern side, it's not as clear. But the southern side is very much a Crossrail 1 solution - main difference being the routing away from the traditional terminus. There will still be Waterloo/City demand, vs. Victoria line punters - and so I'd expect a good amount of interchanging at Clapham Junction, but also Tottenham Court Road for CR1. Vauxhall and the Victoria line would likely to be the biggest beneficiaries.
Not to be speculative here, BUT it's a shame there is no NLE connection at Vauxhall, or short extension to Clapham Junction. An upgraded northern line at 30tph would and indeed could, be very useful for dispersing SWT and Southern passengers directly into Waterloo, the West End and up to Euston/St P/KX. At least as another route in, and potentially with a seat - even if a few mins slower.
Vauxhall as just noted above seems familiar to me for being mentioned as a problem issue Beyond that not sure why extending NLE to Clapham Junction would overwhelm the Northern Line as surely all that would happen is some people would migrate from Waterloo to Clapham Junction in order to get a seat / stand in comfort on the Northern Line rather than potentially stand in discomfort. Would be interested in the models assumptions especially now with home working becoming the in thing due to covid.I’m reasonably sure a NLE extension to Clapham Jn has been shown to overwhelm the Northern line in passenger modelling.
Tunnelling under most of Central London must be a challenge these days, its not just transport but water, gas, electric and sewage pipes down there, at least.Also it would have to be built in a way that won’t interfere with either Crossrail 2 or the station redevelopment, which is no mean feat.
How will you respond if passenger numbers recover more quickly, or new patterns of travelling emerge, before December 2022? Our comprehensive customer research does not suggest that this is likely. However, we view this outline specification as a baseline for the future and, working within the set parameters for timetable changes, SWR and Network Rail will discuss how best to respond to emerging travel patterns with the Department for Transport.
Would that be the Northern Line as it currently exists, or after a future split?
Tunnelling under most of Central London must be a challenge these days, its not just transport but water, gas, electric and sewage pipes down there, at least.
It would be interesting to see a 3D model of the underground infrastructure in Central London - would anyone have made such a thing?As I’ve posted elsewhere on these pages, after Crossrail 2 the parts of the central activity zone in London where you would want to put a railway are essentially full underground.
It would be interesting to see a 3D model of the underground infrastructure in Central London - would anyone have made such a thing?
I doubt it boots the ball more than 5 years down the track - and in terms of a major enhancement like Woking, let alone an incredibly complex one like Clapham Jn, that is but a flash, a twinkling of an eyeThis rather kicks into the long grass assumptions being made by NR and would suggest the Low passenger recovery is the more likely outcome from the the NR route upgrade document meaning any major enhancements are not needed for sometime.
It depends if Dept of Tranpsort operate a wait and see approach or not which is why i said get on with C.Jcn now as that has long run benefits on connectivity.I doubt it boots the ball more than 5 years down the track - and in terms of a major enhancement like Woking, let alone an incredibly complex one like Clapham Jn, that is but a flash, a twinkling of an eye
It depends if Dept of Tranpsort operate a wait and see approach or not which is why i said get on with C.Jcn now as that has long run benefits on connectivity.
Fund it by building a load of shops and offices on top…….oh hang on…..The Clapham Jn long term scheme is big bucks. Can’t see that happening for a while.
Fund it by building a load of shops and offices on top…….oh hang on…..
BR did pretty well flogging air rights in the 80's basically paid for the new sliding door trains Chris Green bought for LSE.You could put Canary Wharf on top and it wouldn’t fund it!
BR did pretty well flogging air rights in the 80's basically paid for the new sliding door trains Chris Green bought for LSE.
Japan Railways also improved there solvency massively by developing air rights over Tokyo stations.
Plenty of acreage to use at C.Jcn but unless you can shift the North side abutment of St Johns Hill o/b over you can't get a faster alignment into the station and that will need property acquisition so thats five years before you start. Quickest fix at C.Jcn would be build another o/b up the london end to link platforms 7 to 19.
I can't see it happening ever because not only it's big bucks, there would be lots of disruption for people passing through whilst they did the work. I doubt there is much political benefit either.The Clapham Jn long term scheme is big bucks. Can’t see that happening for a while.