SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Fincra5]

Portsmouth is only 8 miles closer to Waterloo than Salisbury is, and has a population five times larger, as well as acting as a railhead for Gosport and the eastern Isle of Wight. So I can't work out how you see Salisbury as intercity but not Portsmouth. As for the comparison with LNR local services, Portsmouth doesn't have fast Pendolinos as an alternative.

I object to your constant assertions that suburban commuter stock is good enough for the Direct when you live nowhere near it, but rather on a line that has proper long distance trains available. Would you be happy if someone from elsewhere in the country continually promoted Avanti services being withdrawn from Milton Keynes on the basis that LNR 350s were good enough for its residents?

375s, 377s and 387s are good enough for the Great Northern, South Central and South Eastern division. All of those have journeys similar, if not longer, than Waterloo to Portsmouth....
LNR Have 350s from Northampton (for Commuting) and Corby now 360s (Which were on Anglia from as far as Ipswich). All have 2+2 (and some 3+2), with Doors at 1/4 or 1/3 in and yet those passengers survive. I'm sure the PDL users will cope with refurbished 458s of similar spec!

 

[WombleGuard]

Well they won't match the 444s (or even the 442s) for passenger comfort, since they have doors opening directly into the saloons. That means noisier, draughtier, and at each station, a cold wind entering in the winter and a hot wind entering in the summer.

Unfortunately installing 2+2 seating in a suburban unit, while a welcome improvement on the 3+2 450s, doesn't turn them into proper main line stock.

New interior doors and bulkheads each side of the vestibule a-la new 450 first class would do the trick.

 

[DelW]

I’ll do you a deal, then. The Pompey line whingers can have our 701s (2+2 seating, 100mph - that’s what you want, right?) and us Reading line punters can keep the 458s.

No deal, 2+2 and vestibules, please, just like when the 444s arrived to replace the slammers. (And which the 442s would have provided, too, had they worked). Of course, there may still be some 444s in the future - I'm not sure whether anything has been said yet about how the fleets will be split? I'm unclear whether the 458s will run all Direct services, or just the stoppers and Haslemeres.

For what it's worth, SWR Reading services maybe do deserve better stock. But at least end to end users have the GWR alternative, which Pompey doesn't.

375s, 377s and 387s are good enough for the Great Northern, South Central and South Eastern division. All of those have journeys similar, if not longer, than Waterloo to Portsmouth....
LNR Have 350s from Northampton (for Commuting) and Corby now 360s (Which were on Anglia from as far as Ipswich). All have 2+2 (and some 3+2), with Doors at 1/4 or 1/3 in and yet those passengers survive. I'm sure the PDL users will cope with refurbished 458s of similar spec!

But it would be nice to do some levelling up (buzzword of the moment) of quality, not have a race to the bottom. To some extent it will depend on how well the refurb turns out, though the history of the 458s isn't too encouraging. If the seats are less uncomfortable than the 450s, that'll be a start.

New interior doors and bulkheads each side of the vestibule a-la new 450 first class would do the trick.

Indeed so, that would certainly help!

 

[dingdinger]

IMO the 458 standard class seats are far comfier than those in a 450.

 

[43096]

No deal, 2+2 and vestibules, please, just like when the 444s arrived to replace the slammers. (And which the 442s would have provided, too, had they worked). Of course, there may still be some 444s in the future - I'm not sure whether anything has been said yet about how the fleets will be split? I'm unclear whether the 458s will run all Direct services, or just the stoppers and Haslemeres.

My understanding is the 458s will be running the fasts i.e. directly replacing what the 442s were planned to do.

For what it's worth, SWR Reading services maybe do deserve better stock. But at least end to end users have the GWR alternative, which Pompey doesn't.

Wokingham is around 68 minutes from Waterloo, though, which isn't too dissimilar to Havant (to pick an example entirely at random )

But it would be nice to do some levelling up (buzzword of the moment) of quality, not have a race to the bottom. To some extent it will depend on how well the refurb turns out, though the history of the 458s isn't too encouraging. If the seats are less uncomfortable than the 450s, that'll be a start.

Indeed so, that would certainly help!

We'd rather not lose our 458s (especially as we get inner suburban Aventras instead), especially if the whinging, never happy mob on the PDL are turning up the their snooty noses at them!

 

[Bessie]

Are the 458's having some sort of renaissance on the Reading line? I've only just started travelling back on this line again but each 458 I've been on has been clean and I've seen no examples of fogged up or "swimming pool" windows.

 

[Bigfoot]

I think the only bit is from woking to just before Byfleet & New Haw isn't it? (On up fast)

Which is not part of the PDL.

 

[43096]

Are the 458's having some sort of renaissance on the Reading line? I've only just started travelling back on this line again but each 458 I've been on has been clean and I've seen no examples of fogged up or "swimming pool" windows.

Still plenty of knackered windows around. Presumably Alstom will replace them all during the refurb.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it would be nice to do some levelling up (buzzword of the moment) of quality, not have a race to the bottom. To some extent it will depend on how well the refurb turns out, though the history of the 458s isn't too encouraging. If the seats are less uncomfortable than the 450s, that'll be a start.

You are literally the first person I have ever known complain about the Grammer E3000. OK, they're 3+2 in the 450s, but they are the same actual seats as the 444s, just the latter have armrests and slightly bigger headrest wings.

 

[spark001uk]

Which is not part of the PDL.

[hairsplit] OK, the route the PDL services take from London then [/hairsplit]

 

[Bigfoot]

[hairsplit] OK, the route the PDL services take from London then [/hairsplit]

Then I'll split hairs more and remind that some PDL services bypass Woking and use the New Line therefore never seeing the illusive 100. (Given also from a stop at Woking to the 90 board just before BFN it's pretty much impossible to hit 100)

 

[DelW]

You are literally the first person I have ever known complain about the Grammer E3000. OK, they're 3+2 in the 450s, but they are the same actual seats as the 444s, just the latter have armrests and slightly bigger headrest wings.

They're the only seats in trains I use(d) regularly that can give me backache so bad that at times I've opted to stand up for part of the journey instead. It's not the seats themselves, it's the lack of knee room in the airline seats, the lack of lateral support in the facing seats which means you have to brace yourself with your legs when the train sways, and in the window seats, the floor level ducting which makes you sit with your legs angled in. You used to be able to put one foot on top of the duct to overcome that, but now the power sockets block that. I had no problem with first class in the 450s (though it's lousy value) or with standard in 444s, because I'm not having to brace myself sideways with legs and back.

 

[spark001uk]

Then I'll split hairs more and remind that some PDL services bypass Woking and use the New Line

Which then wouldn't be PDL services? (A quick search says PDL is defined as woking to pompey, so yes, technically I was also wrong including woking to Byfleet)

 

[D2007wsm]

No deal, 2+2 and vestibules, please, just like when the 444s arrived to replace the slammers. (And which the 442s would have provided, too, had they worked). Of course, there may still be some 444s in the future - I'm not sure whether anything has been said yet about how the fleets will be split? I'm unclear whether the 458s will run all Direct services, or just the stoppers and Haslemeres.

For what it's worth, SWR Reading services maybe do deserve better stock. But at least end to end users have the GWR alternative, which Pompey doesn't.

But it would be nice to do some levelling up (buzzword of the moment) of quality, not have a race to the bottom. To some extent it will depend on how well the refurb turns out, though the history of the 458s isn't too encouraging. If the seats are less uncomfortable than the 450s, that'll be a start.

Indeed so, that would certainly help!

I travelled on a 458 only briefly between Reading and Bracknell and found it to be perfectly comfortable including the seats.

Far more comfortable than the GWR ‘Intercity’ class 800/802 seats which makes your behind go to sleep even on a short distance!

On a busy service love it or hate it, but the door arrangements on the 458s are much better as it is far less time queuing in the aisle to get off or queuing on the platform waiting to get on whilst people get off. Drell times will be better speeding up services or allowing them to keep to time better. As someone else has mentioned, screens can be put in to reduce draughts and are usually quite effective

 

[pompeyfan]

As someone who also lives in Portsmouth...

450s are okay, but are quite uncomfortable on anything over an hour. 444s are lovely. 458s are not ideal, even if they can make them as nice internally as 444s, however what should have happened in my opinion is the following.

350/2s converted to 2+2 DC units with the desk rebuilt to match existing desiros. I understand that the lease cost is why this didn’t happen, as the rebuild cost would probably be equal to or cheaper than the 458 conversion project.

if you want a ton on a 458 you’ll have to get one of the early services from Southampton or the 2105 Poole service basing it exactly on the 442 diagrams.

 

[43096]

350/2s converted to 2+2 DC units with the desk rebuilt to match existing desiros. I understand that the lease cost is why this didn’t happen, as the rebuild cost would probably be equal to or cheaper than the 458 conversion project.

As the 350/2s have the same owner as the 458s there are probably other factors as well: 458s are available now and there’s probably a better chance of finding a home for the 350/2s elsewhere, whereas for the 458s it was probably this or bust.

 

[py_megapixel]

458s are not ideal, even if they can make them as nice internally as 444s

If they can make them as nice internally as 444s then what's the issue? (Assuming here that "as nice" would include partitions with sliding doors between the door vestibules and seating areas, so you don't get a draught or have to listen to a load of beeping at every stop)

 

[Goldfish62]

If they can make them as nice internally as 444s then what's the issue? (Assuming here that "as nice" would include partitions with sliding doors between the door vestibules and seating areas, so you don't get a draught or have to listen to a load of beeping at every stop)

Issues include rough noisy riding, leaking windows, aircon that fails at the first sight of sun, rubbish PIS, loud door bleepers, plus a multitude of other things.

For me the overall ambience is no match to even a 450.

 

[pompeyfan]

If they can make them as nice internally as 444s then what's the issue? (Assuming here that "as nice" would include partitions with sliding doors between the door vestibules and seating areas, so you don't get a draught or have to listen to a load of beeping at every stop)

my concern is that the ride quality and the windows will let the units down.

I think though that 444s are exceptionally good units (apart from lack of large luggage racks), and I’m surprised that there was never a follow on order for over head versions.

considering they’re not far off 20 years in service, you wouldn’t know by looking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think though that 444s are exceptionally good units (apart from lack of large luggage racks), and I’m surprised that there was never a follow on order for over head versions.

A "Class 344" did eventually come into being, though, in the form of the Class 397. Not a Siemens product, but basically the same thing with a pantograph. I do think they'd have been good for the LNR Crewe services, but the benefits of a single fleet (for now) would probably outweigh the microfleet the Crewes would need - everything else needs doors at thirds.

I do agree 444s are excellent units though I think, seats aside, that classes 80x and 397 give them a run for their money. So I get why you want them, I just don't think they're a great fit for the route, and of course are needed on the Weymouths.

 

[Failed Unit]

375s, 377s and 387s are good enough for the Great Northern, South Central and South Eastern division. All of those have journeys similar, if not longer, than Waterloo to Portsmouth....
LNR Have 350s from Northampton (for Commuting) and Corby now 360s (Which were on Anglia from as far as Ipswich). All have 2+2 (and some 3+2), with Doors at 1/4 or 1/3 in and yet those passengers survive. I'm sure the PDL users will cope with refurbished 458s of similar spec!

It is interesting that on the former regional railways routes such as Liverpool - Norwich. People are wanting the 170s rather than the 158. But Portsmouth want the end doors rather than central doors.

One thing I noticed (although this is really not an Inter-city route) the 170s dwell times were significantly better than the 158s.

I would have thought that the 458s with a decent layout would be preferred over the 444s as dwell time must be important (at Waterloo in particular)

You see people complain about the seats on the 387s - but not the fact they are not end doors. But it could be that the route as had MUs for such a long time they don't think about it anymore.

 

[Bigfoot]

Issues include rough noisy riding, leaking windows, aircon that fails at the first sight of sun, rubbish PIS, loud door bleepers, plus a multitude of other things.

For me the overall ambience is no match to even a 450.

One of the main reason the aircon fails is the frequency of the stops and frequency of the doors opening and closing on suburban services, coupled with low speeds between stations not giving the airflow to move the heat from the roof.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the main reason the aircon fails is the frequency of the stops and frequency of the doors opening and closing on suburban services, coupled with low speeds between stations not giving the airflow to move the heat from the roof.

No, one of the main reasons the aircon fails is that it's not fit for purpose. 350s and 450s operate in those conditions with roof-mounted aircon units and the aircon is highly reliable, and it's generally OK on Turbostars and Electrostars too.

 

[Dibbo4025]

I would have thought that the 458s with a decent layout would be preferred over the 444s as dwell time must be important (at Waterloo in particular)

Dwell at Waterloo isn't really an issue, with the full 24 platforms now providing 35-40' turnaround off peak is pretty easy and even 20-25 in the peak. It is important en route though, particularly on the up. The addition of the Godalming stop and the tighter and less than ideal margins this creates, particularly at Woking. The 442s notably struggled with this and even the 444s haven't been entirely the best at meeting the timings between Haslemere and Woking (pre-covid). Definitely with these timings 450s or 458s are what is required, short of a timetable recast and slightly extended journey times

 

[43096]

No, one of the main reasons the aircon fails is that it's not fit for purpose. 350s and 450s operate in those conditions with roof-mounted aircon units and the aircon is highly reliable, and it's generally OK on Turbostars and Electrostars too.

It’s usually fine on 458s, too (how often do those criticising them actually use them?). As a backup they have opening windows*, too, though that might be a way for SWR to be lazy with fixing them. Definitely worse under SWR where their approach to “fixing” an aircon fault in an ex-460 car is to isolate the doors at each end and hope for some air blow through. Though I have seen 450 services cancelled at Waterloo due to demic aircon on a hot day, as I stepped on to my nice cool Juniper.

* not on the 460 cars, obviously.

 

[Goldfish62]

It’s usually fine on 458s, too (how often do those criticising them actually use them?).

Me - until a year ago 4-5 days a week, twice a day from when they were introduced around 20 years ago.

SWT were also lazy fixing the aircon. I remember a few years ago two units on which aircon had completely failed running around with all the windows open for several weeks.

 

[43096]

Me - until a year ago 4-5 days a week, twice a day from when they were introduced around 20 years ago.

SWT were also lazy fixing the aircon. I remember a few years ago two units on which aircon had completely failed running around with all the windows open for several weeks.

Like any aircon system it needs to be maintained. My experience - in terms of usage, similar to yours - is that when working it was very good. The blast of cold air on a hot day after walking over to Waterloo was always welcome. I wonder if the issue was Wimbledon and the lack of experience on aircon? Interesting to see how Bournemouth get on with them...

 

[Tynwald]

Sure these units have Soprano HVAC's, which are actually pretty good. Of course they the require specialist maintenance, that all HVAC's do.

 

[nw1]

A "Class 344" did eventually come into being, though, in the form of the Class 397. Not a Siemens product, but basically the same thing with a pantograph. I do think they'd have been good for the LNR Crewe services, but the benefits of a single fleet (for now) would probably outweigh the microfleet the Crewes would need - everything else needs doors at thirds.

I do agree 444s are excellent units though I think, seats aside, that classes 80x and 397 give them a run for their money. So I get why you want them, I just don't think they're a great fit for the route, and of course are needed on the Weymouths.

Although that said, putting 444s on the Poole stoppers (xx39) and Portsmouth via Eastleigh (xx09), is perhaps a bit of a waste as they cannot be considered 'express' services. I always wondered why in recent years there were many cases of 450s on Portsmouth Direct '81' fasts with 444s on the Poole/Portsmouth via Eastleigh services when the opposite would mean that express units were used on express services. Certainly in the later days of slammers and 442s (early SWT era, thinking of the late 90s or thereabouts), the Portsmouth fasts were always 442s or CIGs while the Portsmouth via Eastleigh was as often as not VEP (edit: though that said , in the very last days of slammers i.e. 2004, you frequently got VEPs on '81' fasts, perhaps those services that would become 450s when the new stock was introduced. One day in December 2004 I remember walking in the Buriton area and the services were an entirely random mix of 444/450/CIG/VEP of various lengths, with no correlation whatsoever between fast/stopping and class of unit!)

In fact the 1999 timetable (the first one to have 15-minute frequency down the Direct) seemed to have 100% CIG/CEP/442 off peak, even on the stopping services! That was, admittedly, rather OTT: no harm to have VEPs or 450s on the semi-fast or stopping services (72/82).

Perhaps 10.444 would not provide the required capacity on Portsmouth peak fast services so a small number of them have to be 450?

 

[JonathanH]

Although that said, putting 444s on the Poole stoppers (xx39) and Portsmouth via Eastleigh (xx09), is perhaps a bit of a waste as they cannot be considered 'express' services. I always wondered why in recent years there were many cases of 450s on Portsmouth Direct '81' fasts with 444s on the Poole/Portsmouth via Eastleigh services when the opposite would mean that express units were used on express services

Simple point that the 444s can run as 5-cars on the xx09 and xx39 from Waterloo without concern about overcrowding on most services but a 5-car 444 isn't sufficient for Portsmouth direct so a 8-car 450 formation is needed, there not being enough 444s to run Portsmouth services as 10-444.

Moreover, the Portsmouth fasts and slows interwork at Waterloo. For a long while, Portsmouth direct was all 450s on Saturdays to provide the capacity needed, both there and, indirectly, on the Bournemouth line.