SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Cowley]

I didn’t think it would be, but I’m not comfortable with the idea of the person sharing it getting into trouble. Furthermore, who’s to say someone didn’t show me something off their phone or something, or an expiring photo like on IG/SC? I’m not going to deliberately withhold it, am I?

Ok. To save us spending ages editing/deleting posts etc, let’s leave all that stuff where it is and move on with our lives.

Thanks!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It would appear from the next timetable change, the 1200 (**00 is the slower of the two) Portsmouth Hbr service gets back to Waterloo at 1551, meaning you need eight sets for a half hourly service, which is 24 12 carriage trains.

That only leaves four spare so I doubt they’ll be that common on Winchester Bournemouth, but I guess one could appear on the route from time to time. Perhaps if there’s one diagram that starts and ends down there it could do that, and the others could be Desiros.

 

[43096]

It would appear from the next timetable change, the 1200 (**00 is the slower of the two) Portsmouth Hbr service gets back to Waterloo at 1551, meaning you need eight sets for a half hourly service, which is 24 12 carriage trains.

That only leaves four spare so I doubt they’ll be that common on Winchester Bournemouth, but I guess one could appear on the route from time to time. Perhaps if there’s one diagram that starts and ends down there it could do that, and the others could be Desiros.

I'd say it's unlikely they'd use the 1551 arrival for the 1600 - that's a bit tight - so more likely it will do the 1630. So 9 circuits, means 27 sets needed for 12-car throughout. So likely mostly 458, but with some 444 or 450 thrown in?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'd say it's unlikely they'd use the 1551 arrival for the 1600 - that's a bit tight - so more likely it will do the 1630. So 9 circuits, means 27 sets needed for 12-car throughout. So likely mostly 458, but with some 444 or 450 thrown in?

Yes you’re probably right as nine minutes is too tight for Waterloo. If all thirty originals were kept an entirely 458 service would have been easily done with three sets off spare or on maintenance. Oh well, not as if they’ll be short of Desiros after this.

I reckon there’s a chance many will go out as eights though. Look at EMR Connect.

 

[TEW]

When 442s were still part of the plan, it was always planned for some fast services to remain as 444s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Noticed this. How long has entirely former 460 unit 8536 had a random set of original Class 458 doors in one of the second carriages, and where did SWR get it from??

Photos from YouTube stills. Not my videos.
Picture shows 458536 with a pair of 458|0 doors.

 

[janahan]

Noticed this. How long has entirely former 460 unit 8536 had a random set of original Class 458 doors in one of the second carriages, and where did SWR get it from??

Probably swapped over due to glass damage form an ex 458 whilst being repaired (both classes are identical internally apart from the window size).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Probably swapped over due to glass damage form an ex 458 whilst being repaired (both classes are identical internally apart from the window size).

What happened to that original 458 then, I wonder.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What happened to that original 458 then, I wonder.

The doors are probably swapped out when they need repair, once repaired they'll become the spares so won't necessarily return to the unit they started in.

A few units spent a long time out of use during covid, so they'd be prime candidates for giving up any components that were in short supply.

 

[Benno]

So, I read on social media the other day a comment that alleges that an "internal email" states that due to significant corrosion being found on the first pair of units that went for conversion the project is being scrapped due to the cost of rectification. The 458s will go off-lease instead and 450s will remain permanently on Portsmouth fasts.

It might be complete wibble. On the other hand it might be true. Significant corrosion was found in the Class 460s which delayed the five car conversion project.

There is some truth to that "internal e-mail". The 458 refurb programme has been paused, but it is due to funding no longer being mad available for the conversion and not because of corrosion (Which was addressed when they were converted to five cars). With the potential surplus of 701s when fully in service there will be no need for the 458s as 450s will be able to cover the Portsmouth routes. The current 458s will remain on lease until the end of 2024 when a final decision will be made whether to resurrect the refurb project, or withdraw the units. The two four car conversions currently at Widnes will be returned to SWR for them to decide how to use them. Incidentally the 455s will also remain on lease until the end of 2024 which gives you some confidence (or lack of) about how long the introduction of the 701s might take. The 455s being withdrawn when there are 701s available to enter service.

 

[43096]

There is some truth to that "internal e-mail". The 458 refurb programme has been paused, but it is due to funding no longer being mad available for the conversion and not because of corrosion (Which was addressed when they were converted to five cars). With the potential surplus of 701s when fully in service there will be no need for the 458s as 450s will be able to cover the Portsmouth routes. The current 458s will remain on lease until the end of 2024 when a final decision will be made whether to resurrect the refurb project, or withdraw the units. The two four car conversions currently at Widnes will be returned to SWR for them to decide how to use them. Incidentally the 455s will also remain on lease until the end of 2024 which gives you some confidence (or lack of) about how long the introduction of the 701s might take. The 455s being withdrawn when there are 701s available to enter service.

Interestingly the Section 54 on the 450s ends in 2025. Could be a straight shootout between 450 and 458 at that point?

 

[DelW]

Terrific - yet another failure to deliver on what was promised in 2017, and Portsmouth via the Direct is stuck with cramped, uncomfortable, outer suburban stock until at least 2025 and probably beyond, to go with the pathetic 1 semifast and 1 slow train per hour. It's hardly surprising that passengers have voted with their feet and deserted in droves.

 

[adc82140]

What is the implication with this announcement for the (couple?) of 458s that have gone off lease but we're not intended for the conversion programme? Will SWR be leasing them back?

 

[fgwrich]

There is some truth to that "internal e-mail". The 458 refurb programme has been paused, but it is due to funding no longer being mad available for the conversion and not because of corrosion (Which was addressed when they were converted to five cars). With the potential surplus of 701s when fully in service there will be no need for the 458s as 450s will be able to cover the Portsmouth routes. The current 458s will remain on lease until the end of 2024 when a final decision will be made whether to resurrect the refurb project, or withdraw the units. The two four car conversions currently at Widnes will be returned to SWR for them to decide how to use them. Incidentally the 455s will also remain on lease until the end of 2024 which gives you some confidence (or lack of) about how long the introduction of the 701s might take. The 455s being withdrawn when there are 701s available to enter service.

That tallies with that I've heard as well, so potentially still time for the Junipers to become razorblades. I still feel a deal should have been struck between leasing co's for the 350 fleet (LNW refurbish and keep the /2s, send the /1s to SWR) but passenger numbers, and the DfT, presently wouldn't allow for it.

 

[Goldfish62]

There is some truth to that "internal e-mail". The 458 refurb programme has been paused, but it is due to funding no longer being mad available for the conversion and not because of corrosion (Which was addressed when they were converted to five cars). With the potential surplus of 701s when fully in service there will be no need for the 458s as 450s will be able to cover the Portsmouth routes. The current 458s will remain on lease until the end of 2024 when a final decision will be made whether to resurrect the refurb project, or withdraw the units. The two four car conversions currently at Widnes will be returned to SWR for them to decide how to use them.

I'm only surprised that it's taken so long to get to this stage.

 

[Roger B]

Sounds like the title of this thread needs to be revised ...... eg 'not for much longer'!

 

[Goldfish62]

Incidentally the 455s will also remain on lease until the end of 2024 which gives you some confidence (or lack of) about how long the introduction of the 701s might take. The 455s being withdrawn when there are 701s available to enter service.

Assuming training starts soon a two year introduction for the whole 701 fleet sounds perfectly within normal timescales for such a large fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

More money thrown up the wall on something that isn't needed.

Just reseat some 450s to 2+2.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Starting, promoting and then cancelling this project once was bad enough. Twice is a farce. Thankfully only two units were worked on this time.

 

[Invincible]

More money thrown up the wall on something that isn't needed.

Just reseat some 450s to 2+2.

So some of the 450s remain, or move, as the Portsmouth expresses?
And some later 701s in the main order build with 2+3 seating to replace some of the 450s moved to Portsmouth to provide more seated capacity (similar to the 720s Aventras in East Anglia) for the outer suburban routes?

 

[swr444]

So some of the 450s remain, or move, as the Portsmouth expresses?
And some later 701s in the main order build with 2+3 seating to replace some of the 450s moved to Portsmouth to provide more seated capacity (similar to the 720s Aventras in East Anglia) for the outer suburban routes?

enough with putting 3+2 seating on trains, it's horribly cramped and causes problems for people trying to get through to other carriages. Especially if they have a buggy etc when there's a short platform

 

[Invincible]

enough with putting 3+2 seating on trains, it's horribly cramped and causes problems for people trying to get through to other carriages. Especially if they have a buggy etc when there's a short platform

But then you will have some people complaining they cant get a seat peaktime on 2+2 trains at some outer suburban stations, (they would rather have a cramped seat on the current 450s than no seat) assuming commuting levels return?
So can't win.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

.

 

[43096]

Starting, promoting and then cancelling this project once was bad enough. Twice is a farce. Thankfully only two units were worked on this time.

But if Alstom have ordered materials in, there will be payments for that.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Terrific - yet another failure to deliver on what was promised in 2017, and Portsmouth via the Direct is stuck with cramped, uncomfortable, outer suburban stock until at least 2025 and probably beyond, to go with the pathetic 1 semifast and 1 slow train per hour. It's hardly surprising that passengers have voted with their feet and deserted in droves.

The trains are nothing to do with passengers voting with their feet but the PDL has seen one of the slowest comebacks post covid with the demographics of the route providing greater than average levels of home working.

2017 is irrelevant in this debate, that was a promise made with a previous franchise, that has now been terminated along with all the commitments. As part of the new concession DfT has chosen not to persevere with 2+2 seated rolling stock due to budget constraints. DfT also no longer wish to run 2tph fast to Portsmouth.

I’m not quite sure you understand how the current National Rail Contracts work: they are bluntly based on what the DfT specifies in terms of a cost base.

 

[pompeyfan]

There is some truth to that "internal e-mail". The 458 refurb programme has been paused, but it is due to funding no longer being mad available for the conversion and not because of corrosion (Which was addressed when they were converted to five cars). With the potential surplus of 701s when fully in service there will be no need for the 458s as 450s will be able to cover the Portsmouth routes. The current 458s will remain on lease until the end of 2024 when a final decision will be made whether to resurrect the refurb project, or withdraw the units. The two four car conversions currently at Widnes will be returned to SWR for them to decide how to use them. Incidentally the 455s will also remain on lease until the end of 2024 which gives you some confidence (or lack of) about how long the introduction of the 701s might take. The 455s being withdrawn when there are 701s available to enter service.

Without coming across bullish, what is your source for this information? This is a very big about-turn to information I saw on a video not 2 weeks ago. @HamworthyGoods are you privvy to the same info?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Without coming across bullish, what is your source for this information? This is a very big about-turn to information I saw on a video not 2 weeks ago. @HamworthyGoods are you privvy to the same info?

Two weeks ago would have been prior to the submission to the DfT of the Annual Business plan proposals. Now DfT are working through these decisions are starting to be made.

 

[Benno]

Without coming across bullish, what is your source for this information? This is a very big about-turn to information I saw on a video not 2 weeks ago. @HamworthyGoods are you privvy to the same info?

It's a fair question to ask given that sometimes gossip is put across as fact. The information came from my boss on a Teams call this morning when I enquired about the project. My employer is closely involved with the 458 refurb. Sorry I can't (won't) say more than that.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Might see the repainted two on Readings and Windsors for a short while then perhaps.

 

[Techniquest]

It's a fair question to ask given that sometimes gossip is put across as fact. The information came from my boss on a Teams call this morning when I enquired about the project. My employer is closely involved with the 458 refurb. Sorry I can't (won't) say more than that.

Fair enough. It certainly doesn't sound promising for the 458s, 450s in place of 458s does make a lot of sense. A shame but based solely on my 458 ride from Vauxhall to Clapham Junction a handful of weeks ago, perhaps it is best to just cut one's losses and get rid of them.