SWR - Holden Report into performance

[Dr_Intoxicated]

There is evidence to suggest that although passenger numbers are reported to be going down, actually they’re not.

Season tickets are counted as 10 trips per week, regardless of how many are made. People who don’t travel every day are swapping to daily tickets, particularly in London with the advent of contactless payment. The figures correctly show a large reduction in season tickets, partly offset by an increase in daily tickets, but actually the numbers of bums on seats are the same.

Of course there are other factors at play, but the reduction in passenger numebrs isn’t quite what it seems.

In addition for commuters within London it is more convenient to buy an Oyster zonal season ticket now that there are no more free tickets to be gained from buying a SWR season. Loose the Oyster and you can cancel and get another. Loose your paper season more than once and you loose a lot of money.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What the railway would like is for people to work different office hours to 9 to 5 and still use the trains every day. However that doesn't seem to be what firms and staff would like to do.

Yes, why should the railway ask its passengers to work different hours and use different travel patterns to suit their operational needs - I thought it was the other way round - after all, who's paying the fares...?

 

[pompeyfan]

Yes, why should the railway ask its passengers to work different hours and use different travel patterns to suit their operational needs - I thought it was the other way round - after all, who's paying the fares...?

I am sympathetic as to what you’re saying, it must be crap paying £xk a year for no seat until Guildford/Basingstoke, maybe even further, with delays of some sort every single peak, but the railway into Waterloo is at capacity, some would say its running above capacity.

I appreciate it’s not your job to find a solution, but what would you suggest they do? Trains run at maximum length on double yellow signals all the way from Surbiton, the only way I can think of to improve the line into that part of London is either Crossrail 2, or 5/6 tracking up from Surbiton, both of which are years away and a substantial cost to the tax payer.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, why should the railway ask its passengers to work different hours and use different travel patterns to suit their operational needs - I thought it was the other way round - after all, who's paying the fares...?

Well yes, but then why should airlines ask their passengers to use their services at different times to suit their operational needs... because it is more efficient that way.

 

[Haywain]

I am sympathetic as to what you’re saying, it must be crap paying £xk a year for no seat until Guildford/Basingstoke, maybe even further, with delays of some sort every single peak, but the railway into Waterloo is at capacity, some would say its running above capacity.

I appreciate it’s not your job to find a solution, but what would you suggest they do? Trains run at maximum length on double yellow signals all the way from Surbiton, the only way I can think of to improve the line into that part of London is either Crossrail 2, or 5/6 tracking up from Surbiton, both of which are years away and a substantial cost to the tax payer.

In a truly commercial world, the prices for travelling at such times would increase enough to suppress and move the demand to slightly quieter times.

 

[infobleep]

I am sympathetic as to what you’re saying, it must be crap paying £xk a year for no seat until Guildford/Basingstoke, maybe even further, with delays of some sort every single peak, but the railway into Waterloo is at capacity, some would say its running above capacity.

I appreciate it’s not your job to find a solution, but what would you suggest they do? Trains run at maximum length on double yellow signals all the way from Surbiton, the only way I can think of to improve the line into that part of London is either Crossrail 2, or 5/6 tracking up from Surbiton, both of which are years away and a substantial cost to the tax payer.

They are years away because no one instigated the additional infrastructure earlier, for many reasons of course. Perhaps it wasn't known earlier that there might be increased passenger numbers like there has been in the past 10 years.

However they did seem slow to react with additional carriages. I could see the need in 2011 and it was a few years before anything was done. I appreciate they needed to lengthen platforms but not all services needed lengthened platforms in order to benefit from an increased number of coaches. The 18:39 Waterloo to Poole was 5 coaches. Eventually it became 8. That didn't need increased platform lengths to run as 8.

 

[Bald Rick]

However they did seem slow to react with additional carriages. I could see the need in 2011 and it was a few years before anything was done. I appreciate they needed to lengthen platforms but not all services needed lengthened platforms in order to benefit from an increased number of coaches. The 18:39 Waterloo to Poole was 5 coaches. Eventually it became 8. That didn't need increased platform lengths to run as 8.

No, but it did need more trains, which it took a while to secure.

 

[swt_passenger]

No, but it did need more trains, which it took a while to secure.

As I’ve mentioned before, the original ITT that SWT issued in April 2009 for the proposed ten car suburban railway (that eventually became the 458/5 extensions, 60 vehicles and the 456s, 48 vehicles) was for a significantly larger number of 450 compatible 5 car trains, between 120-180 vehicles so potentially 50% more than the eventual number of vehicles that arrived.

It would be interesting to know exactly why an ITT for a more than adequate number of new trains was delayed by about 2-3 years, and then also watered down into a trawl through the secondhand market, given what’s happened with rolling stock since. I strongly suspect DfT having put the brakes on to avoid SWT having an embarrassment of stock because DfT and NR were so far behind the hoped for timescales with Waterloo international and the suburban stations generally...

 

[Robertj21a]

Well yes, but then why should airlines ask their passengers to use their services at different times to suit their operational needs... because it is more efficient that way.

They also don't allow standing !!

If the trains didn't allow standing there's be no complaints about not getting a seat and/or travelling like cattle. Everyone would feel happier and more relaxed. Of course there'd also be no space for at least 50% of those wishing to travel.......

 

[kristiang85]

In a truly commercial world, the prices for travelling at such times would increase enough to suppress and move the demand to slightly quieter times.

But they do? That's what peak fares are for.

 

[nw1]

Well yes, but then why should airlines ask their passengers to use their services at different times to suit their operational needs... because it is more efficient that way.

Air travellers are quite likely to be going on holiday though, and even if on business can probably be a little bit flexible.

With train commuting, this is much less the case unless you want to leave home at some silly hour or return back home at an equally silly hour (imagine say a Haslemere commuter having to work in London from 6am-2pm or 12pm-8pm); if the company even lets you be flexible with hours. The railway need to really throw everything they can at the peak, obviously within the constraints (paths, available stock) that they have.

The interesting question is _why_ are more people using trains at peak times compared to say 1995 or 2005? Logic dictates it ought to be lower: a) more home working due to internet and b) the millennium period was a boom while the last 10 years or so have been economically challenging.

 

[kristiang85]

The interesting question is _why_ are more people using trains at peak times compared to say 1995 or 2005? Logic dictates it ought to be lower: a) more home working due to internet and b) the millennium period was a boom while the last 10 years or so have been economically challenging.

Probably because in the last 10-20 years, London has been so cripplingly expensive to own/rent property in, that people are moving further out, thus using peak time railways more to get to work. Not to mention more people are working in London anyway.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The interesting question is _why_ are more people using trains at peak times compared to say 1995 or 2005? Logic dictates it ought to be lower: a) more home working due to internet and b) the millennium period was a boom while the last 10 years or so have been economically challenging.

Population increase?

 

[Haywain]

But they do? That's what peak fares are for.

Where trains are most overcrowded peak time fares are regulated and therefore not truly commercial.

 

[infobleep]

No, but it did need more trains, which it took a while to secure.

That was my point. I thought it took to long myself. However I was just a regular passenger and not the person having to try and source the rolling stock or get it built.

 

[infobleep]

As I’ve mentioned before, the original ITT that SWT issued in April 2009 for the proposed ten car suburban railway (that eventually became the 458/5 extensions, 60 vehicles and the 456s, 48 vehicles) was for a significantly larger number of 450 compatible 5 car trains, between 120-180 vehicles so potentially 50% more than the eventual number of vehicles that arrived.

It would be interesting to know exactly why an ITT for a more than adequate number of new trains was delayed by about 2-3 years, and then also watered down into a trawl through the secondhand market, given what’s happened with rolling stock since. I strongly suspect DfT having put the brakes on to avoid SWT having an embarrassment of stock because DfT and NR were so far behind the hoped for timescales with Waterloo international and the suburban stations generally...

Perhaps one day someone will be able to write an article on this.

 

[superkev]

Professional driving is a strange one. You see drivers in Japan always applying full power from the minute the doors click shut. Compare this with our start gradually on notch one or two and crawl into stations when stoppjng.
Are the Japanise not professional?
This coupled with delays caused by the guard checking if the platforms there etc really slow things down.
Ian Warmsley in Modern Railways hit it on the head when he said the whole thing compared to light rail seemed very layed back.
K

 

[HH]

Professional = Defensive, which is what it used to be called. It's the natural result of everybody being risk adverse, because there are no benefits to doing it any other way, thanks to the blame culture.

 

[Haywain]

Professional driving is what drivers are trained and instructed to do these days and while it may be the cause of some delays I don't believe it has more than the very slightest impact on capacity.

 

[Helvellyn]

They are years away because no one instigated the additional infrastructure earlier, for many reasons of course. Perhaps it wasn't known earlier that there might be increased passenger numbers like there has been in the past 10 years.

However they did seem slow to react with additional carriages. I could see the need in 2011 and it was a few years before anything was done. I appreciate they needed to lengthen platforms but not all services needed lengthened platforms in order to benefit from an increased number of coaches. The 18:39 Waterloo to Poole was 5 coaches. Eventually it became 8. That didn't need increased platform lengths to run as 8.

As I’ve mentioned before, the original ITT that SWT issued in April 2009 for the proposed ten car suburban railway (that eventually became the 458/5 extensions, 60 vehicles and the 456s, 48 vehicles) was for a significantly larger number of 450 compatible 5 car trains, between 120-180 vehicles so potentially 50% more than the eventual number of vehicles that arrived.

It would be interesting to know exactly why an ITT for a more than adequate number of new trains was delayed by about 2-3 years, and then also watered down into a trawl through the secondhand market, given what’s happened with rolling stock since. I strongly suspect DfT having put the brakes on to avoid SWT having an embarrassment of stock because DfT and NR were so far behind the hoped for timescales with Waterloo international and the suburban stations generally...

See my reply #26 - Stagecoach wanted to increase capacity way earlier than even 2009 and the "missing" 120 coaches they wanted are now London Northwestern's 350/1s.

By the start of the 2007 franchise we had DfT specifying train services and fleets; by 2009 passenger numbers had dropped after the Great Recession and SWT was in financial support. DfT was likely very reluctant to allow SWT to go out and buy hnew trains when it wasn't clear how well passenger numbers would recover. Then we get to the early 2010s and plans were underway that meant DfT knew some train fleets were going to be surplus hence ending up with the 458/5s and 456s.

 

[infobleep]

See my reply #26 - Stagecoach wanted to increase capacity way earlier than even 2009 and the "missing" 120 coaches they wanted are now London Northwestern's 350/1s.

By the start of the 2007 franchise we had DfT specifying train services and fleets; by 2009 passenger numbers had dropped after the Great Recession and SWT was in financial support. DfT was likely very reluctant to allow SWT to go out and buy hnew trains when it wasn't clear how well passenger numbers would recover. Then we get to the early 2010s and plans were underway that meant DfT knew some train fleets were going to be surplus hence ending up with the 458/5s and 456s.

Bar lack of loos, don't object to the trains they used but I do think it took to long to implement.

 

[bramling]

Ian Warmsley in Modern Railways hit it on the head when he said the whole thing compared to light rail seemed very layed back.
K

Whilst I'm not the biggest fan of "professional" or "defensive" driving, one can't help but look at the safety figures over the last couple of decades and appreciate that a lot of work has gone into preventing incidents.

Light rail has had some awakenings over recent years, not least the Croydon tram derailment. I suspect over time this may well lead to some changes in their way of doing things, rightly or wrongly.

 

[bramling]

Professional driving is what drivers are trained and instructed to do these days and while it may be the cause of some delays I don't believe it has more than the very slightest impact on capacity.

Not sure about this. Any slowing down will cost time, even if just a few seconds, and practices like tricking up to a red aspect, departing slowly on a yellow, slowing down early at the first sight of restrictive aspects ahead all eat into capacity as they're essentially working against the way the signalling system was designed to be used. Whilst this may not always directly affect the train being driven defensively, it can impact other trains in the form of delaying signal clearances, which in turn initiates a domino effect.

There's good safety reasons for defensive driving, however the price paid for this is certainly a reduction in capacity at times. The more intensive the operation the more the impact, hence why LU has gone for continuous ATP with ATO systems over recent years.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, why should the railway ask its passengers to work different hours and use different travel patterns to suit their operational needs - I thought it was the other way round - after all, who's paying the fares...?

If the oh so forward thinking private sector were more amenable to flexible working, it might find some of its employees preferred to vary their hours (but then there is less opportunity to screw unpaid overtime out of employees !)

 

[superkev]

Professional driving is what drivers are trained and instructed to do these days and while it may be the cause of some delays I don't believe it has more than the very slightest impact on capacity.

Are drivers in Japan with there full power/ hard braking deemed un proffesional then
K

 

[Tomnick]

Are drivers in Japan with there full power/ hard braking deemed un proffesional then
K

Full power quite soon after the train's started moving isn't unusual here, railhead conditions permitting.

Hard, last minute braking (for stations) might be okay if every train in a class has very similar braking characteristics and if the railhead is reliably uncontaminated. I don't know about Japan, but you certainly can't rely on that here. For signals and substantial speed reductions, where the consequences are potentially far more severe, it's obviously strongly discouraged and TPWS would usually soon put a stop to it anyway...

 

[swt_passenger]

See my reply #26 - Stagecoach wanted to increase capacity way earlier than even 2009 and the "missing" 120 coaches they wanted are now London Northwestern's 350/1s...

Yes, I remember that as well but I suppose it depends where you draw your baseline for the fleet size. There was also the extra 17 x 4 car ordered that partially cancelled out the SRA’s hatchet job; if only in train numbers rather than individual train length.

So SWT originally wanted 132 trains, (100 x 4 car; 32 x 5 car) and were allowed only 110 x 4 car. They eventually ended up with 127 x 4 car after some renegotiation - IIRC there was very little publicity before that last batch started arriving.

 

[kristiang85]

Where trains are most overcrowded peak time fares are regulated and therefore not truly commercial.

But there's a balance.

Keep the price high at these times knowing you have an audience that *have* to pay it, and you make tons of profit.

Make it too high and people will start using cars, etc. and profit is lost.

TOCs, as far as I can tell, don't give a damn how comfortable passengers are.

 

[superkev]

Full power quite soon after the train's started moving isn't unusual here, railhead conditions permitting.

Hard, last minute braking (for stations) might be okay if every train in a class has very similar braking characteristics and if the railhead is reliably uncontaminated. I don't know about Japan, but you certainly can't rely on that here. For signals and substantial speed reductions, where the consequences are potentially far more severe, it's obviously strongly discouraged and TPWS would usually soon put a stop to it anyway...

Probably not the best example of driving in Japan but heres the best YouTube I could find showing pointing full power starts etc.

Love the view out the front (what happened here) and the way the drivers are given status with smart uniforms and white gloves. Northerns crews look like their delivering a take away.
K

 

[Antman]

The cost of train travel is rising. The tickets are going up, SWR has never (AIUI) offered returns at a reasonable rate where you return next day (so you have to buy two (relatively) expensive singles). Car parking costs are getting crackers (both headline rate and making the off peak discounted rate changeover ever later), the trains aren't getting any quicker, reliability is getting worse so people choose not to work from the office if there's a risk the train will cock up, the strikes are a problem - we've cancelled meetings tomorrow because people can't guarantee to a) get in or b) get home for the weekend (or rather when) (strike).

It's all a bit rubbish (for us paying customers). We see that technology is getting better (I still prefer real meetings, rather than people in their PJs with bedhead and dishevelled on a webcam on their dining room table), we are all under massive pressure to cut costs (first class travel went ages ago (even advanced and cheaper), mileage is being curtailed, hotel costs kept down, putting a beer on expenses or a taxi in London is scrutinised (let alone the ink for my fountain pens (it IS expensive )) so we can't just book open tickets any more. Mostly whatever your level. We have female staff (really good ones) with new families who we want to keep in the business demanding to work flexibly - that means they don't want to come in to town every day. With the cost of a season ticket being so high, then what they are all doing is NOT taking the annual season ticket loan (like everyone used to....) but companies are simply having to let them expense their tickets in when they do come in (and worry about the tax consequences later...).

The railways are not adapting and are simply assuming they don't need to (even on this thread, it's been mentioned what the railways want, not what the customers want.... the railway is mainly Hobson's choice, people will very happily choose not to spend the money if they don't have to. And making it so expensive as it is now just drives ever more people to look at alternative solutions). But the railways don't want to accept that. Look at many of the new commuter trains - no toilets, fewer seats, no quicker - who wants that ? And to pay a relative fortune for it ?

And waste all that time. If I commute from say 30 minutes outside Waterloo, that's an hour to an hour and 15 to get to work (dependent on trip to station), so two and a half hours a day (plus the risk of delays/cancellations). So all that extra time every day with their families/dog/gym/getting hammered down the pub. We don't want to spend all the time commuting - we have had to do it - so what is the railway doing to make it attractive enough for us to keep doing it ? Where's the carrot - most of what we see is sticks