SWR Longest Strike - December 2019

[NoMorePacers]

I still remain puzzled that the most belligerent staff seem to be at the coastal depots which will not be affected by any changes in the foreseeable future.

I wouldn’t be so sure myself. If the suburban lines do go DOO, then if 450s stay on those duties then they’ll probably have cameras fitted to them. If that happens they might try to extend DOO to other routes.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wouldn’t be so sure myself. If the suburban lines do go DOO, then if 450s stay on those duties then they’ll probably have cameras fitted to them. If that happens they might try to extend DOO to other routes.

I might be wrong, but I don't think you can fit cameras to them, on the basis that it would make them out of gauge and there's no room in the cab. Just look at the arrangement for shoe-horning monitors into the Electrostar cab.

 

[pompeyfan]

I might be wrong, but I don't think you can fit cameras to them, on the basis that it would make them out of gauge and there's no room in the cab. Just look at the arrangement for shoe-horning monitors into the Electrostar cab.

On the gauging side of things, I wouldn’t be so sure, if you can fit cameras to the side of turbos and not take them out of gauge then you can fit the same system to desiros. The cab is the saving grace.

 

[sparson]

SWR have never proposed to make any guards redundant or do DOO. They just want them to step up from sitting in the cabs all day long reading the paper and just getting up to do the doors. And what’s wrong with that? It’s an open goal for ASLEF and the RMT to stitch up a pay rise and a legal agreement about keeping the guards on board for years to come right now. Time for the RMT to grow up and think of its members first!

 

[pompeyfan]

SWR have never proposed to make any guards redundant or do DOO. They just want them to step up from sitting in the cabs all day long reading the paper and just getting up to do the doors. And what’s wrong with that? It’s an open goal for ASLEF and the RMT to stitch up a pay rise and a legal agreement about keeping the guards on board for years to come right now. Time for the RMT to grow up and think of its members first!

rightly or wrongly, RMT has convinced its members that if they give the company an inch, they’ll take a mile and decide on a whim ‘actually, off you go, here’s your P45’. ASLEF could state in their upcoming pay deal that its members will do full door control, but the train doesn’t move in passenger service without a safety critical guard on board, and that 701 guards retain dispatch competency in the event of poor lighting etc etc

 

[Goldfish62]

On the gauging side of things, I wouldn’t be so sure, if you can fit cameras to the side of turbos and not take them out of gauge then you can fit the same system to desiros. The cab is the saving grace.

But the sides on Turbos lean in more and that may make the difference?

 

[infobleep]

If TFL took over it’d almost certainly come with a commitment to first to last train staffing of all stations, so no need for redundancies other than those who wish to volunteer.

Would that be a pay cut and demotion and if so, would you be prepared to do that in similar circumstances? Not sure I would.

 

[Carlisle]

rightly or wrongly, RMT has convinced its members that if they give the company an inch, they’ll take a mile and decide on a whim ‘actually, off you go, here’s your P45’.

The long term consistency of on board staffing levels so far on Southern, South Eastern high speed & Strathclyde electrics none of whom operate doors, simply doesn’t bear this out, & even if a future TFL deal imposed DOO there’d be sufficient station jobs available to those that want them.
It’s more likely the RMT successfully forcing complete reversals of policy at GWR, Scotrail & Merseyrail & near total reversals at northern & WMR have convinced the membership they only need strike for long enough & it’ll pretty much guarantee the TOC in question’s capitulation

 

[Goldfish62]

The long term consistency of on board staffing levels so far on Southern, South Eastern high speed & Strathclyde electrics none of whom operate doors, simply doesn’t bear this out, & even if a future TFL deal imposed DOO there’d be sufficient station jobs available to those that want them.
It’s more likely the RMT successfully forcing complete reversals of policy at GWR, Scotrail & Merseyrail & near total reversals at northern & WMR have convinced the membership they only need strike for long enough & it’ll pretty much guarantee the TOC in question’s capitulation

There are of course a range of different circumstances. GWR and WMT capitulated almost immediately. Scotrail and Merseyrail were as a result of local political interventions and has Northern actually been settled yet? Then there's Southern where the RMT lost the dispute and GA where they agreed to what SWR are wanting.

 

[hwl]

I might be wrong, but I don't think you can fit cameras to them, on the basis that it would make them out of gauge and there's no room in the cab. Just look at the arrangement for shoe-horning monitors into the Electrostar cab.

Cameras fitted on the 380s and 700s without issue.
LNR presumably going down the camera route with their 350s at some point too?

 

[hwl]

There are of course a range of different circumstances. GWR and WMT capitulated almost immediately. Scotrail and Merseyrail were as a result of local political interventions and has Northern actually been settled yet? Then there's Southern where the RMT lost the dispute and GA where they agreed to what SWR are wanting.

At GWR Hopwood got a bit of DOO on the 800s in the former Thames Trains (Oxford/Didcot/Newbury) area through, a key first move for the next round...
With HSTs now gone the RMT's ability to disrupt on GWR is reduced.

GA was 90% DOO services anyway the other 10% isn't big impact short term and they are now long term DOO capable, leaving the door open for the next franchise (as per GWR)

 

[Goldfish62]

Cameras fitted on the 380s and 700s without issue.
LNR presumable going down the camera route with their 350s at some point too.

The side profile of the 380s is very different to the 450s. Likewise I suspect the 700 dimensions are somewhat different.

 

[pompeyfan]

The long term consistency of on board staffing levels so far on Southern, South Eastern high speed & Strathclyde electrics none of whom operate doors, simply doesn’t bear this out, & even if a future TFL deal imposed DOO there’d be sufficient station jobs available to those that want them.
It’s more likely the RMT successfully forcing complete reversals of policy at GWR, Scotrail & Merseyrail & near total reversals at northern & WMR have convinced the membership they only need strike for long enough & it’ll pretty much guarantee the TOC in question’s capitulation

the two go hand in hand though, they kept the status quo because they went on strike, had they not gone on strike they would have all been got rid of (if you believe the RMT).

 

[Carlisle]

Would that be a pay cut and demotion and if so, would you be prepared to do that in similar circumstances? Not sure I would.

As far as I’m aware pay is usually protected for existing staff changing roles, perhaps new starters would be on different rates, but that’s also happening on Merseyrail despite the RMT forcing the company to retain the traditional guards role .

 

[Socanxdis]

Can they split the franchise? London depots with doo trains only and no guards under tfl and country depots with guards operating on long distance routes only under first group or someone else.

 

[swt_passenger]

But SWR could make the guards redundant. TUPE them and the RMT would go on strike to get a commitment to keep them, as they have done everywhere else.
It wouldn’t be a huge issue if you had delivery of DOO capable trains and drivers willing to drive them.....

I don’t think there’s another London suburban operator where RMT got such a commitment. “Everywhere else” seems rather wide of the mark...

 

[sparson]

the two go hand in hand though, they kept the status quo because they went on strike, had they not gone on strike they would have all been got rid of (if you believe the RMT).

SWR just need the new trains to come in and show the drivers how to use the cameras. ASLEF can bluster a bit but there is not a chance they will go on strike and risk financial ruin or the new anti-strike laws. They might get their agreement there has to be a (non-doors etc) guard on board to accompany their pay rise but RMT will just be watching at the side again shouting for attention but ignored through that. The RMT wont have any say on what their actual job on board is by the time the new trains start running and will get what they are given. Just like at Southern the company will write the new job and put it all in practice (worked out fine for the guards at Southern of course). Many guards will blindly be loyal to the RMT dinosaurs and won’t accept if their union hadn’t been so stubborn they could have had a say. Surely after last month the guards would see they need a new approach?

 

[WA_Driver]

SWR just need the new trains to come in and show the drivers how to use the cameras. ASLEF can bluster a bit but there is not a chance they will go on strike and risk financial ruin or the new anti-strike laws. They might get their agreement there has to be a (non-doors etc) guard on board to accompany their pay rise but RMT will just be watching at the side again shouting for attention but ignored through that. The RMT wont have any say on what their actual job on board is by the time the new trains start running and will get what they are given. Just like at Southern the company will write the new job and put it all in practice (worked out fine for the guards at Southern of course). Many guards will blindly be loyal to the RMT dinosaurs and won’t accept if their union hadn’t been so stubborn they could have had a say. Surely after last month the guards would see they need a new approach?

Drivers can’t be trained on how to use cameras without agreeing to it in the first place. You are right that RMT are effectively finished. They played their card too early. They just got to hope & pray that the driver don’t sell them down the river (which will happen)

 

[43096]

Drivers can’t be trained on how to use cameras without agreeing to it in the first place. You are right that RMT are effectively finished. They played their card too early. They just got to hope & pray that the driver don’t sell them down the river (which will happen)

SWR drivers already have DOO in their T&Cs.

 

[DennisM]

SWR drivers already have DOO in their T&Cs.

But not dispatch and door operation

 

[43096]

But not dispatch and door operation

If they have DOO-P in their terms, by implication does that not include door operation and dispatch?

 

[sparson]

If they have DOO-P in their terms, by implication does that not include door operation and dispatch?

Does ASLEF fancy risking a million pound loss in court to find out what a judge thinks it means? It may not be fair but it’s the way it is.

 

[DennisM]

If they have DOO-P in their terms, by implication does that not include door operation and dispatch?

By its nature a contract is a binding agreement between two parties, and should go into thorough detail in all matters for the avoidance of any doubt. To try and argue that something is implied in a contract where it is not expressedly written is clearly an employer chancing their luck.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

All SWR have to do is stick it out until the new trains are introduced and they will then probably change the name of the new role and Job Description and they will serve notice on the employees no different to Southern. Then it will be up to them personally to decide if they will stay or go. To be fair the RMT would be best using its bargaining power it has now to negotiate better pay and conditions as SWR are lagging behind all lot of TOCs in that department. And if they want a few more on train staff, they can simply upskill the revenue staff they have.

 

[Brissle Girl]

By its nature a contract is a binding agreement between two parties, and should go into thorough detail in all matters for the avoidance of any doubt. To try and argue that something is implied in a contract where it is not expressedly written is clearly an employer chancing their luck.

So are you suggesting that dispatch and doors are excluded from the contract? I think the comment about "by implication" is suggesting that whilst we have used DOO as an abbreviation, the contract will in fact be more specific, not that it is something that would be argued in court.

 

[DennisM]

Does ASLEF fancy risking a million pound loss in court to find out what a judge thinks it means? It may not be fair but it’s the way it is.

Drivers pay around £400 a year to be members, if ASLEF aren’t taking up these kind of fights on behalf of it’s members then they certainly won’t be continuing to pay while T&C’s are signed away in return for nothing.

So are you suggesting that dispatch and doors are excluded from the contract? I think the comment about "by implication" is suggesting that whilst we have used DOO as an abbreviation, the contract will in fact be more specific, not that it is something that would be argued in court.

No I’m speculating as I don’t have access to the drivers terms and conditions, drivers currently drive ECS movements as DOO, so it could be easily argued that DOO is currently undertaken as was agreed. A few posts back someone threw in that DOO-P was agreed which is news to me, if anyone has the full wording of the terms and conditions then that’d be an enlightening read.

 

[387star]

I think the SWR suburban network is the only one in London now to have Guards

West mids on London Northwestern Railway have them but worth noting immediate inners are Overground which used to be Silverlink metro

Southern has no requirement for OBS staff into Victoria as the Brighton Mainline was excluded from the OBS agreement. GWR is DOO in the Thames Valley, C2C is all DOO, Greater Anglia only has Guards to Norwich, Chiltern only on loco hauled stuff, Southeastern metro is all DOO with long distance trains working DOO in the metro area, Overground and TFL, Thameslink Great Northern Gatwick Heathrow Express all DOO think that's it

coastal depots tend to be more militant it was the same with Barnham/Eastbourne presumably due to the lower cost of living and the more senior workforce

 

[387star]

SWR just need the new trains to come in and show the drivers how to use the cameras. ASLEF can bluster a bit but there is not a chance they will go on strike and risk financial ruin or the new anti-strike laws. They might get their agreement there has to be a (non-doors etc) guard on board to accompany their pay rise but RMT will just be watching at the side again shouting for attention but ignored through that. The RMT wont have any say on what their actual job on board is by the time the new trains start running and will get what they are given. Just like at Southern the company will write the new job and put it all in practice (worked out fine for the guards at Southern of course). Many guards will blindly be loyal to the RMT dinosaurs and won’t accept if their union hadn’t been so stubborn they could have had a say. Surely after last month the guards would see they need a new approach?

if SWR keep Guards in their existing safety critical roles, guaranteed on the train but with door duty given to the driver could RMT argue for the same on southern or at least that they should be safety critically trained assuming that means retaining PTS and full route knowledge. With no door duty presumably knowledge will in fact be more or less like southern.

PTS training was in the ASLEF agreement with southern for OBS' but has never been implemented

 

[387star]

All SWR have to do is stick it out until the new trains are introduced and they will then probably change the name of the new role and Job Description and they will serve notice on the employees no different to Southern. Then it will be up to them personally to decide if they will stay or go. To be fair the RMT would be best using its bargaining power it has now to negotiate better pay and conditions as SWR are lagging behind all lot of TOCs in that department. And if they want a few more on train staff, they can simply upskill the revenue staff they have.

unlike southern the proposal is quite different as it guarantees they are on the train at all times

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Article in the Times this afternoon -
South Western Railway may be nationalised as losses mount
This is behind a paywall: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...may-be-nationalised-as-losses-mount-dcs956gv2
but starts:
One of the country’s biggest rail operators is at risk of being renationalised because of crippling financial losses.
South Western Railway admitted that its existing contract could be terminated within 12 months after strikes, timetabling problems and delayed track upgrades.
It said it was in discussions with the Department for Transport (DfT) over changes to the franchise, with the possibility of a new short-term deal under revised terms.
Alternatively, the existing contract may have to be torn up within a year, with services on the line being taken over by the government, it said.
Writing in the operator’s accounts, the auditor Deloitte said that “material uncertainty exists and it may cast significant doubt on the company’s ability to continue as a going concern”.
And this was the star franchise under Stagecoach!
Pat