SWR not serving local travel needs and lack integrated ticket options (Bournemouth area)

[swt_passenger]

Yes, just saw that.

I expect if the hourly Portsmouth to Bournemouth stopping service ever happens, the one re-consulted in 2019 or so, it will use P1 all day.

 

[30907]

Rather than trying to squeeze a new platform and line in the existing gap between P2 and P3, if I understood the proposal aright, wouldn't it be easier to make P4 more useful by reinstating one of the old storage lines such that up trains could depart from it even when P3 was occupied?

I think you mean the through lines? That would be a good solution; I think you would have to reconfigure the carriage sidings pointwork and you would connect into the down line at the London end.

 

[bb21]

I guess some skip-stop express bus services may help OP.

They have existed in various guises over the years, but never really took off. X3 used to start back from Poole at one stage for example, and operated limited stop, X8 Blandford bus used to start from Bournemouth, and X5/X35 Southampton bus used to start from Poole as well. Frequency has never been that great, which didn't help, and they were invariably the result of tagging the journey on the end of something longer, but I suspect the market for a dedicated limited-stop shuttle between the two towns never was that high, bear in mind that Wilts & Dorset used MetroRiders and Solos on most Bournemouth - Poole journeys supplemented by some deckers, but offered a high-frequency service in exchange sustained by relatively high fares. For journeys of this length, frequency and convenience is key. Anything less than every 20 minutes and you'd probably be no worse off just catching the next regular bus and I doubt demand for anything more frequent than half-hourly is there.

Actually the layout of the conurbation lends itself well to a tram system, with some highly concentrated traffic corridors. A few years back there was a speculative thread about it but making that into a reality is a long way away.

 

[Wychwood93]

They have existed in various guises over the years, but never really took off. X3 used to start back from Poole at one stage for example, and operated limited stop, X8 Blandford bus used to start from Bournemouth, and X5/X35 Southampton bus used to start from Poole as well. Frequency has never been that great, which didn't help, and they were invariably the result of tagging the journey on the end of something longer, but I suspect the market for a dedicated limited-stop shuttle between the two towns never was that high, bear in mind that Wilts & Dorset used MetroRiders and Solos on most Bournemouth - Poole journeys supplemented by some deckers, but offered a high-frequency service in exchange sustained by relatively high fares. For journeys of this length, frequency and convenience is key. Anything less than every 20 minutes and you'd probably be no worse off just catching the next regular bus and I doubt demand for anything more frequent than half-hourly is there.

Actually the layout of the conurbation lends itself well to a tram system, with some highly concentrated traffic corridors. A few years back there was a speculative thread about it but making that into a reality is a long way away.

Would that be the tram system that used to exist before the trolley buses? Trams ended around 1933 and then the trolleys wandered off in 1969. If the area had either now - and less general traffic - then things would be better, with the current rail network feeding in and out. The OP would be happier!

 

[miklcct]

They have existed in various guises over the years, but never really took off. X3 used to start back from Poole at one stage for example, and operated limited stop, X8 Blandford bus used to start from Bournemouth, and X5/X35 Southampton bus used to start from Poole as well. Frequency has never been that great, which didn't help, and they were invariably the result of tagging the journey on the end of something longer, but I suspect the market for a dedicated limited-stop shuttle between the two towns never was that high, bear in mind that Wilts & Dorset used MetroRiders and Solos on most Bournemouth - Poole journeys supplemented by some deckers, but offered a high-frequency service in exchange sustained by relatively high fares. For journeys of this length, frequency and convenience is key. Anything less than every 20 minutes and you'd probably be no worse off just catching the next regular bus and I doubt demand for anything more frequent than half-hourly is there.

Actually the layout of the conurbation lends itself well to a tram system, with some highly concentrated traffic corridors. A few years back there was a speculative thread about it but making that into a reality is a long way away.

If X1, X2, X3 all start at Poole, X6 becomes a complete loop and X8 starts at Bournemouth with limited stops in town they can form a combined 10-15 minutes headway between the town centres.

However, there isn't much benefit in this because there isn't a grade separated dual carriageway between Bournemouth and Poole, like Wessex Way between Bournemouth and Littledown, so the bus still needs to travel on those slow single carriageways between the towns.

A true express service is always better than taking a local stopping bus even the local runs on 3-minute headway because the local is so slow, but here, express bus service between the town centres simply isn't possible because there is no road to allow such service.

Although we are limited by the fact that Bournemouth Station isn't near the town centre, a local rail service can still going between places east of it and Poole, like Pokesdown, Christchurch, etc.

 

[Titfield]

Although we are limited by the fact that Bournemouth Station isn't near the town centre, a local rail service can still going between places east of it and Poole, like Pokesdown, Christchurch, etc.

Does this really matter given that due to the University and other developments, the Lansdowne area of Bournemouth (ie the area nearest the station) has become increasingly busy?

There is a great deal of history and poor decision making that has lumbered the conurbation with the poor transport network and I include in that the lack of a grade separated dual carriage way between Bmth and Poole. The plan for one was scuppered by the failure to extend Wessex way along through Branksome (the bit where Tesco is) to Pottery Junction and thence on to Seaview / the old Wareham Road dual carriageway by "Ryvita".

What is also an issue is that over the years the speed limit on the bits of dual carriageway near the town centre (the Wessex way) have been reduced from the national speed limit to 40mph in places.

 

[JonathanH]

I include in that the lack of a grade separated dual carriage way between Bmth and Poole

Grade separated dual carriageways do rather detract from the local area and become a bit of a barrier between communities.

 

[miklcct]

Grade separated dual carriageways do rather detract from the local area and become a bit of a barrier between communities.

Grade separated dual carriageways in terms of bridges / tunnels are a mean to reduce traffic congestion by diverting traffic out of the city centres. For example, there is no way to bypass residential roads if we start from Bournemouth to the west, e.g. to Dorchester until Fleetsbridge Roundabout, and the roads between Westbourne and Poole are known to be congested.

Christchurch Bypass was built exactly to divert through traffic between Bournemouth and Lymington such that it won't enter Christchurch town centre.

 

[paul1609]

absence of a combined ticket is nothing to do with SWR - outside of London these are fairly rare / non existent - this is because the UK govt has never made any serious attempt at integrated transport provision or policy - preferring the notion of 'competition' to drive improvement - competition that rarely exists in a meaningful way

For more insights maybe source this from your local library (if they have not closed it for similar reasons to the above...)

Are Trams Socialist? – Christian Wolmar

Thats a bit unfair to Brighton. It has a long history of rail bus integration with the travelcard ticket predating network southeast by some years. The Brighton Railbus ticket was expanded nationwide to become plusbus. Currently there is Southerns key go in Brighton, Lewes and Eastbourne which offers rail bus integrated smartcard ticketing with plusbus zone capping.

 

[Wychwood93]

Grade separated dual carriageways in terms of bridges / tunnels are a mean to reduce traffic congestion by diverting traffic out of the city centres. For example, there is no way to bypass residential roads if we start from Bournemouth to the west, e.g. to Dorchester until Fleetsbridge Roundabout, and the roads between Westbourne and Poole are known to be congested.

Christchurch Bypass was built exactly to divert through traffic between Bournemouth and Lymington such that it won't enter Christchurch town centre.

Not too sure about Lymington - more the A35 traffic. Hindsight would have seen it designed to actually be of use - in much the same way that Wessex Way would not have ended where it did. A lot of constraints have come into play since both projects came along - the idea of taking the Christchurch bypass over the railway, across the water meadows, drifting up through the gap between St. Catherines Hill and Ramsdown to drop to where the current A338 is, would not go down well in the current climate. Too many reed beds, newts, rare this and thats.... Get the drift. Had it been done in the 50's, when it was built, there would have been few, if any, complaints - we may now be in the position to look back and admire the foresight. In much the same way that the Dorset Coast Resignalling was a lost opportunity - scaled back to save money. A 'metro' service from Southampton through to Poole, although useful - to go back to the OPs original point - was doomed. The headways from Southampton through to Brockenhurst are poor, to say the least, and the Dorset Coast project offered a general lack of improvement - I have the details here if anyone is interested. The scheme was also designed to include provision for 12-car platforms at New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch and Pokesdown. IIRC these were knocked on the head at an early stage. 12 cars for Hinton? Were these guys self-medicating?

 

[bb21]

Would that be the tram system that used to exist before the trolley buses? Trams ended around 1933 and then the trolleys wandered off in 1969. If the area had either now - and less general traffic - then things would be better, with the current rail network feeding in and out. The OP would be happier!

Nah I was on about some speculative thread from a while back.

If X1, X2, X3 all start at Poole, X6 becomes a complete loop and X8 starts at Bournemouth with limited stops in town they can form a combined 10-15 minutes headway between the town centres.

However, there isn't much benefit in this because there isn't a grade separated dual carriageway between Bournemouth and Poole, like Wessex Way between Bournemouth and Littledown, so the bus still needs to travel on those slow single carriageways between the towns.

A true express service is always better than taking a local stopping bus even the local runs on 3-minute headway because the local is so slow, but here, express bus service between the town centres simply isn't possible because there is no road to allow such service.

Although we are limited by the fact that Bournemouth Station isn't near the town centre, a local rail service can still going between places east of it and Poole, like Pokesdown, Christchurch, etc.

But we can't design things outside the current environmental parameters, unless you have access to significant financial resources to force wholesale infrastructure changes. I am still struggling to see what problem you are trying to solve. How big is the market going Pokesdown to Poole or Christchurch to Poole? The economic centre in this area is not Poole. As already pointed out to you, accessing Bournemouth centre via rail is a faff, and for most people living near local rail stations, the local bus service is a much better alternative, so why waste money on rail connections that don't go where people want to go?

X1/X2/X3/X6/X8 are all long-distance routes. With traffic conditions in this country, overlapping these on a small section intending to offer an even-headway primary service is suicidal, as delays and resulting unreliability will kill custom without you having to do much else yourself. There is a reason why cross-city services have died a slow death in most cities. A35-A338-A31 is also notorious for hold-ups, not to mention Poole isn't the easiest to serve with a bypass due to local geography. Centre - centre non-stop expresses (via bypasses) rarely work in this country, for the simple reason that most people do not live around the bus station so it will involve a change of bus, possibly two, which negates most of the time-saving of using the express shuttle (versus a regular direct bus), therefore you tend to end up with a route serving population centres at either ends. You also have the issue that the existing main corridor served by buses between the three towns takes a relatively direct route, while any bypass at both Poole and Christchurch ends are on a bit of a detour. Any significant passenger flow will most likely already have an existing route that covers it, so going out of your way in order to catch an express with the distances involved in the conurbation is also unlikely to offer any meaningful saving. If an A35 bypass existed all the way to Poole, I can possibly see a Creekmore/Upton - Poole - (express) - Bournemouth type service carving out a market, but if you have to change in Poole, may as well jump on the next m1/2 rather than potentially wait 10/15 minutes for the next express. The likes of Canford Heath - Bournemouth may also warrant selected express journeys in the peaks but I cannot see anything near enough to sustaining an all-day service, in addition to what is already there. I am struggling to think of many examples where a big enough market exists as the residential areas outside the few main corridors are quite spread out so unlikely to sustain all-day services by each of themselves alone.

If there were investment available, personally I would seriously consider a light-rail network. The Poole - Branksome - Bournemouth - Boscombe - Christchurch corridor is a perfect candidate, demonstrated by the number of buses along it. A circular route from Square via Boscombe, Iford, Hospital, Castlepoint is probably also worthwhile, together with one from Square via Charminster, Northbourne, Kinson to Bear Cross or looping back to Poole via Sea View/Newtown or back to Bournemouth via Wallisdown and University. All can then be connected via Bournemouth Interchange and you will have a fantastic multi-modal network without ever needing to run more heavy rail services.

 

[James H]

BCP and Dorset Councils have £79 million for walking / cycling / bus schemes in the area:

Transforming Cities Fund

www.bcpcouncil.gov.uk

 

[WesternLancer]

Thats a bit unfair to Brighton. It has a long history of rail bus integration with the travelcard ticket predating network southeast by some years. The Brighton Railbus ticket was expanded nationwide to become plusbus. Currently there is Southerns key go in Brighton, Lewes and Eastbourne which offers rail bus integrated smartcard ticketing with plusbus zone capping.

Good to hear of that. Not exactly common though nationally, sadly.

 

[miklcct]

X1/X2/X3/X6/X8 are all long-distance routes. With traffic conditions in this country, overlapping these on a small section intending to offer an even-headway primary service is suicidal, as delays and resulting unreliability will kill custom without you having to do much else yourself. There is a reason why cross-city services have died a slow death in most cities.

Regards to this, under the current arrangement, all the long distance passengers going to the other town have to get on a turtle slow m1/m2 bus which will add time more than the time required to get from the external town to Bournemouth via Wessex Way.

Also, combined with the fact that Poole - Bournemouth centre shuttle is probably never be served by a standalone route, aggregating long distance trips to serve long distance passengers as well should be a better option.

A35-A338-A31 is also notorious for hold-ups, not to mention Poole isn't the easiest to serve with a bypass due to local geography. Centre - centre non-stop expresses (via bypasses) rarely work in this country, for the simple reason that most people do not live around the bus station so it will involve a change of bus, possibly two, which negates most of the time-saving of using the express shuttle (versus a regular direct bus), therefore you tend to end up with a route serving population centres at either ends. You also have the issue that the existing main corridor served by buses between the three towns takes a relatively direct route, while any bypass at both Poole and Christchurch ends are on a bit of a detour. Any significant passenger flow will most likely already have an existing route that covers it, so going out of your way in order to catch an express with the distances involved in the conurbation is also unlikely to offer any meaningful saving. If an A35 bypass existed all the way to Poole, I can possibly see a Creekmore/Upton - Poole - (express) - Bournemouth type service carving out a market, but if you have to change in Poole, may as well jump on the next m1/2 rather than potentially wait 10/15 minutes for the next express. The likes of Canford Heath - Bournemouth may also warrant selected express journeys in the peaks but I cannot see anything near enough to sustaining an all-day service, in addition to what is already there. I am struggling to think of many examples where a big enough market exists as the residential areas outside the few main corridors are quite spread out so unlikely to sustain all-day services by each of themselves alone.

Assume that a local route runs A-B-C-D-E-F-G. If the express runs from B-F direct on a bypass without stopping, or A-B-F-G, any combination between A-B and F-G can be diverted onto the express giving significant time saving, leaving capacity for C-D-E passengers to use the local service. For example, a "faster" version of m1 can go Castlepoint - Rail station - direct to Westbourne then return to the original routing to Poole, giving Westbourne residents a fast shuttle to the train station. Because currently on weekdays daytime m1/m2 are so frequent that bus bunching always happens, it will be nice to make half of the m1 service faster bypassing Bournemouth, such that fast and slow services alternate between Castlepoint and Poole with roughly 15 minutes headway each.

If there were investment available, personally I would seriously consider a light-rail network. The Poole - Branksome - Bournemouth - Boscombe - Christchurch corridor is a perfect candidate, demonstrated by the number of buses along it. A circular route from Square via Boscombe, Iford, Hospital, Castlepoint is probably also worthwhile, together with one from Square via Charminster, Northbourne, Kinson to Bear Cross or looping back to Poole via Sea View/Newtown or back to Bournemouth via Wallisdown and University. All can then be connected via Bournemouth Interchange and you will have a fantastic multi-modal network without ever needing to run more heavy rail services.

Apart from more capacity, how do a light rail system help? Light rails are as slow as buses in my experience because they need to intersect with road traffic with traffic lights.

 

[bb21]

Regards to this, under the current arrangement, all the long distance passengers going to the other town have to get on a turtle slow m1/m2 bus which will add time more than the time required to get from the external town to Bournemouth via Wessex Way.

Again, what external town? Mudeford? Purewell? Lymington? Broadstone? How many people are going from, say, Pokesdown to Poole, or Bourne Valley to Christchurch? You can't just say this is an issue for some people so I will design a new service. There needs to be a sufficiently large market for the service to make financial sense and be useful (ie. frequent). Buses are commercial operations. It won't fit everyone's requirements.

Also, combined with the fact that Poole - Bournemouth centre shuttle is probably never be served by a standalone route, aggregating long distance trips to serve long distance passengers as well should be a better option.

As I already mentioned, you do not overlap long-distance services (some up to 40 miles) over a short-stretch (5 miles in this case) to provide an even headway in order to serve that common section given traffic conditions in the locality. Your reliability would be shot and that is a recipe for disaster, especially if your proposed frequency is already only 3-4 buses an hour. The likes of X3 are not unknown to have 90+ minute gaps on summer Saturdays when traffic is busy.

If you are specifically serving long-distance passengers, say Mudeford to Poole, if the demand is there, I can see the attraction of extending the Bournemouth end to Poole non-stop, but that would be on the basis of the market for people along that route to Poole, not the market for people using it to connect with other services at Bournemouth or travelling between Bournemouth and Poole, as the route is not frequent enough to warrant such customers specifically waiting for it. This is similar to the example I gave earlier for something like Upton/Creekmoor to Bournemouth. Each such route must be evaluated on its own merit for extension.

Assume that a local route runs A-B-C-D-E-F-G. If the express runs from B-F direct on a bypass without stopping, or A-B-F-G, any combination between A-B and F-G can be diverted onto the express giving significant time saving, leaving capacity for C-D-E passengers to use the local service. For example, a "faster" version of m1 can go Castlepoint - Rail station - direct to Westbourne then return to the original routing to Poole, giving Westbourne residents a fast shuttle to the train station. Because currently on weekdays daytime m1/m2 are so frequent that bus bunching always happens, it will be nice to make half of the m1 service faster bypassing Bournemouth, such that fast and slow services alternate between Castlepoint and Poole with roughly 15 minutes headway each.

Why would half of the buses on your premium route bypass the largest population and commercial centre in the area which is where the bulk of the passengers want to go?

You can't just use algebra to substitute your customers. You need to know your market. How many people want to go from Westbourne to the station? Are you trying to serve long-distance rail passengers or are you trying to serve local journeys? Are you serving commuters or leisure passengers? I can see the attraction of selected journeys being sped up possibly, but how big is that market? Does that warrant one bus an hour, two, three? It certainly isn't going to be half the buses. It won't serve Westbourne centre, or else you will probably wipe out most of your time-savings negotiating the one-way streets. Even if you go straight onto the A338 at County Gates, run 4 buses an hour, it still won't be worth people's while to wait specifically for the express bus unless one leaves in less than 5 minutes, given the saving is probably around 10 minutes off-peak. They may be more attractive proposals for the peak time, but A338 will also be busy and again you are foregoing the biggest destination on your route so the potential for diverting buses is limited.

Apart from more capacity, how do a light rail system help? Light rails are as slow as buses in my experience because they need to intersect with road traffic with traffic lights.

Light rail is not as slow as buses for the simple reason that you can have traffic priority measures at strategic locations.

 

[miklcct]

Again, what external town? Mudeford? Purewell? Lymington? Broadstone? How many people are going from, say, Pokesdown to Poole, or Bourne Valley to Christchurch? You can't just say this is an issue for some people so I will design a new service. There needs to be a sufficiently large market for the service to make financial sense and be useful (ie. frequent). Buses are commercial operations. It won't fit everyone's requirements.

External towns arond BCP include Ringwood, New Milton, Ferndown, Wimborne, Upton, etc. These people need to commute into town.

As I already mentioned, you do not overlap long-distance services (some up to 40 miles) over a short-stretch (5 miles in this case) to provide an even headway in order to serve that common section given traffic conditions in the locality. Your reliability would be shot and that is a recipe for disaster, especially if your proposed frequency is already only 3-4 buses an hour. The likes of X3 are not unknown to have 90+ minute gaps on summer Saturdays when traffic is busy.

If you are specifically serving long-distance passengers, say Mudeford to Poole, if the demand is there, I can see the attraction of extending the Bournemouth end to Poole non-stop, but that would be on the basis of the market for people along that route to Poole, not the market for people using it to connect with other services at Bournemouth or travelling between Bournemouth and Poole, as the route is not frequent enough to warrant such customers specifically waiting for it. This is similar to the example I gave earlier for something like Upton/Creekmoor to Bournemouth. Each such route must be evaluated on its own merit for extension.

This is not the case in some other continential European cities such as Stockholm. Long distance services run into the city centre limited-stop using a common corridor with a bus lane to avoid congestion, providing frequent service along the corridor.

Why would half of the buses on your premium route bypass the largest population and commercial centre in the area which is where the bulk of the passengers want to go?

You can't just use algebra to substitute your customers. You need to know your market. How many people want to go from Westbourne to the station? Are you trying to serve long-distance rail passengers or are you trying to serve local journeys? Are you serving commuters or leisure passengers? I can see the attraction of selected journeys being sped up possibly, but how big is that market? Does that warrant one bus an hour, two, three? It certainly isn't going to be half the buses. It won't serve Westbourne centre, or else you will probably wipe out most of your time-savings negotiating the one-way streets. Even if you go straight onto the A338 at County Gates, run 4 buses an hour, it still won't be worth people's while to wait specifically for the express bus unless one leaves in less than 5 minutes, given the saving is probably around 10 minutes off-peak. They may be more attractive proposals for the peak time, but A338 will also be busy and again you are foregoing the biggest destination on your route so the potential for diverting buses is limited.

The express service I proposed will run non-stop between Bournemouth and Eagle Road. The travelling time between these 2 stops will be about 7 minutes. Using the current m1 timetable, the scheduled time on the current route is 22 minutes, which represent 15 minutes saving if an express bus route is offered. This will become an attractive option even with headway at half an hour. And the stop at Eagle Road is near enough to serve passengers at Westbourne town centre without much backtracking.

An express from Poole / Westbourne to Bournemouth Station is not only useful for rail passengers in case the train doesn't call at Branksome or the minor stations, but it can also be used to connect to other bus routes departing from Bournemouth heading to the north of the city, including Winton, Charminster, Northbourne, Ferndown. If a pair of bus stops can be added on the A35 between Station Roundabout and St. Paul's Roundabout, a seamless transfer between X1/X2/X6 is even possible for Ringwood (with further transfer to X3 for Salisbury), RB Hospital, Christchurch, etc., all the way on the A338.

 

[PTR 444]

External towns arond BCP include Ringwood, New Milton, Ferndown, Wimborne, Upton, etc. These people need to commute into town.



This is not the case in some other continential European cities such as Stockholm. Long distance services run into the city centre limited-stop using a common corridor with a bus lane to avoid congestion, providing frequent service along the corridor.



The express service I proposed will run non-stop between Bournemouth and Eagle Road. The travelling time between these 2 stops will be about 7 minutes. Using the current m1 timetable, the scheduled time on the current route is 22 minutes, which represent 15 minutes saving if an express bus route is offered. This will become an attractive option even with headway at half an hour. And the stop at Eagle Road is near enough to serve passengers at Westbourne town centre without much backtracking.

An express from Poole / Westbourne to Bournemouth Station is not only useful for rail passengers in case the train doesn't call at Branksome or the minor stations, but it can also be used to connect to other bus routes departing from Bournemouth heading to the north of the city, including Winton, Charminster, Northbourne, Ferndown. If a pair of bus stops can be added on the A35 between Station Roundabout and St. Paul's Roundabout, a seamless transfer between X1/X2/X6 is even possible for Ringwood (with further transfer to X3 for Salisbury), RB Hospital, Christchurch, etc., all the way on the A338.

Although there is already a way to get between Poole and Bournemouth Travel Interchange avoiding the latter town centre: National Express. Most journeys even continue to Ringwood so there is practically no need to change onto an X6 bus once there.

 

[miklcct]

Although there is already a way to get between Poole and Bournemouth Travel Interchange avoiding the latter town centre: National Express. Most journeys even continue to Ringwood so there is practically no need to change onto an X6 bus once there.

OK got it, the route 204 from Poole to Heathrow Airport, but it only has 4 departures per day, and it's a new route w.e.f 17 May this year (it didn't exist beforehand).

This is exactly the service I hope for, but unfortunately it is not even an hourly service, with the first bus into Poole well after the morning peak hours, and the last bus from Poole well before the evening peak hour, making it useless to most people.

If the service becomes a half-hourly service, it can be a useful commuting route between Poole and Ringwood. In other countries, coaches running from the biggest airport in the country to other cities are often on an half-hourly basis (e.g. from Helsinki Airport), and this was I experienced in 2018 visiting Finland, with easy coach access from / to the airport on a frequent basis.

 

[bb21]

External towns arond BCP include Ringwood, New Milton, Ferndown, Wimborne, Upton, etc. These people need to commute into town.

Ringwood has X3/X6 to both Bournemouth and Poole centres. Wimborne has the 3/4/13 to both town centres. Ferndown again has X6/13 to both centres. Why would anyone from those places go via Bournemouth to Poole and vice versa?

For New Milton and Upton see my earlier posts about Upton/Creekmoor and Mudeford.

This is not the case in some other continential European cities such as Stockholm. Long distance services run into the city centre limited-stop using a common corridor with a bus lane to avoid congestion, providing frequent service along the corridor.

We are not talking about other European cities and not talking about making infrastructure changes. I doubt there is room along the A35 for bus priority. In any case you will need extensive bus priority provisions given local traffic conditions to solve the reliability issues.

The express service I proposed will run non-stop between Bournemouth and Eagle Road. The travelling time between these 2 stops will be about 7 minutes. Using the current m1 timetable, the scheduled time on the current route is 22 minutes, which represent 15 minutes saving if an express bus route is offered. This will become an attractive option even with headway at half an hour. And the stop at Eagle Road is near enough to serve passengers at Westbourne town centre without much backtracking.

I think you'll find 7 minutes will be pushing it, but let's say using your figure for argument's sake, with a saving of 15 minutes, you probably need the express bus to leave in the next 10 minutes to be worth your wait (and that 22-minute run is very loosely timed anyway especially off-peak). There is a turn-up-and-go service every 3-5 minutes. For most people why would they specifically time it for the two buses an hour rather than turn up and get the next convenient service? Arriving randomly you only have roughly a 1-in-3 chance for the wait to really be worth it. As I mentioned before, there may be a limited market for an express service, but at two buses an hour you are not adding much value the the existing network given the distance and time saved. People who plan their journeys ahead will be able to get the regular bus mostly by leaving slightly early. At two buses an hour, you can't rely on whichever bus you plan to take if arrival time is critical as should it not turn up you will be screwed. People who don't plan ahead will arrive randomly and only find the express useful in very limited circumstances.

Travelling to/from Westbourne centre, your time-saving is worth less as you have to factor in the walking time to/from Eagle Road. In the outward direction it is worth even less as you have to arrive a couple of minutes earlier in case the bus runs a little bit early. Again why would anyone forego a direct bus which runs every 3-5 minutes taking a few minutes longer and instead take a detour waiting for a twice-hourly bus and walk at least 4-5 minutes to their destination? You do realise a large majority of passengers in Westbourne are pensioners right, many will have mobility issues?

An express from Poole / Westbourne to Bournemouth Station is not only useful for rail passengers in case the train doesn't call at Branksome or the minor stations, but it can also be used to connect to other bus routes departing from Bournemouth heading to the north of the city, including Winton, Charminster, Northbourne, Ferndown. If a pair of bus stops can be added on the A35 between Station Roundabout and St. Paul's Roundabout, a seamless transfer between X1/X2/X6 is even possible for Ringwood (with further transfer to X3 for Salisbury), RB Hospital, Christchurch, etc., all the way on the A338.

A bus network cannot be designed on the basis that a few trains here or there may fail to call at a random station. Poole to Winton/Moordown have the 15/17, Poole to Northbourne 14 is not that far, Poole to Ferndown X6, Poole to Charminster is trickier but plenty of options if you allow one change. You need to give me a journey that you think has a big enough market which is not currently served because all you are doing is giving me combinations of journeys which are already well connected in Bournemouth Square. The bus network cannot serve everyone's needs as I explained earlier. What market are you trying to serve and what problems are you trying to solve?

 

[miklcct]

I think you'll find 7 minutes will be pushing it, but let's say using your figure for argument's sake, with a saving of 15 minutes, you probably need the express bus to leave in the next 10 minutes to be worth your wait (and that 22-minute run is very loosely timed anyway especially off-peak). There is a turn-up-and-go service every 3-5 minutes. For most people why would they specifically time it for the two buses an hour rather than turn up and get the next convenient service? Arriving randomly you only have roughly a 1-in-3 chance for the wait to really be worth it. As I mentioned before, there may be a limited market for an express service, but at two buses an hour you are not adding much value the the existing network given the distance and time saved. People who plan their journeys ahead will be able to get the regular bus mostly by leaving slightly early. At two buses an hour, you can't rely on whichever bus you plan to take if arrival time is critical as should it not turn up you will be screwed. People who don't plan ahead will arrive randomly and only find the express useful in very limited circumstances.

Travelling to/from Westbourne centre, your time-saving is worth less as you have to factor in the walking time to/from Eagle Road. In the outward direction it is worth even less as you have to arrive a couple of minutes earlier in case the bus runs a little bit early. Again why would anyone forego a direct bus which runs every 3-5 minutes taking a few minutes longer and instead take a detour waiting for a twice-hourly bus and walk at least 4-5 minutes to their destination? You do realise a large majority of passengers in Westbourne are pensioners right, many will have mobility issues?



A bus network cannot be designed on the basis that a few trains here or there may fail to call at a random station. Poole to Winton/Moordown have the 15/17, Poole to Northbourne 14 is not that far, Poole to Ferndown X6, Poole to Charminster is trickier but plenty of options if you allow one change. You need to give me a journey that you think has a big enough market which is not currently served because all you are doing is giving me combinations of journeys which are already well connected in Bournemouth Square. The bus network cannot serve everyone's needs as I explained earlier. What market are you trying to serve and what problems are you trying to solve?

The problem I'm going to solve is to find a combination of express routes which consists of a large enough market to allow every passenger to utilise the A338 as long as possible to minimise travelling time, allowing 1 change.

You mentioned there are direct buses from Poole to the destination I have mentioned, but these services do not go thru Branksome / Westbourne / etc. Under current network passengers have to take the slow bus m1/m2 to either Poole or Bournemouth to make the transfer. If there is an express route to Bournemouth Station, 15 minutes can be saved on the connecting trip.

As long as there is an express bus in my region, I'll time my trips to take advantage of these to have maximum time savings. For example, if I need to go from Castlepoint to Lansdowne, if there is an X1/X2/X6 arriving 10 minutes later, I won't take the m1 but instead walk to Cooper Dean Roundabout to take the 5-minutes non-stop express to Lansdowne. Doing that can save me about 5-8 minutes compared to taking the slow bus m1 requiring 24 minutes from Castlepoint to Lansdowne. (In the reverse direction there is no time saving possible compared to the slow bus because the first stop after leaving Wessex Way is the hospital)

In situation where time is critical, the express buses even have more importance even with less frequent service because they are the only way where you can squeeze your last minute out of your commuting trip apart from taking a taxi.

 

[Titfield]

OK got it, the route 204 from Poole to Heathrow Airport, but it only has 4 departures per day, and it's a new route w.e.f 17 May this year (it didn't exist beforehand).

No not really a new route. Existed from 1980 onwards and operated IIRC every 90 minutes. Poole Bmth Ringwood Heathrow London Victoria.

National Express has frequently flip flopped between operating (1) Poole Bmth Ringwood Heathrow Victoria and (2) Poole Bmth Ringwood Heathrow Gatwick (with a separate service operating Poole Bmth Ringwood Southampton (sometimes) London Victoria.

The service between Bmth and London Victoria has sometimes been as frequent as hourly from 06:30 to 18:30 with an early morning dept at about 0300.

The ertswhile Hants and Dorset bus company operated an hourly Bmth - Southampton calling at many intermediate stops in the New Forest. Patronage fell over time and the route was eventually withdrawn.

A final comment. I wonder if any of the operators or BCP actually know what demand is for any O (origin) and D (Destination) points in the conurbation.

The whole area has changed so much over the past few years perhaps it is time for a radical rethink. (Yes I know this has been done previously but Im not sure it meets the future need). One of the biggest problems is that traffic congestion is so great that any form of road based transport is very slow whereas a train can get across the conurbation in a fraction of the time.

Perhaps one of the biggest problems is peoples mindset that they will always choose the car unless public transport is so far superior (and in 90% of cases can never reach that level of superiority).

To me air con, wi fi, wood effect flooring and faux leather seats are all very nice but what I want is frequency of service and journey times that are close to that of the car.

 

[PTR 444]

The ertswhile Hants and Dorset bus company operated an hourly Bmth - Southampton calling at many intermediate stops in the New Forest. Patronage fell over time and the route was eventually withdrawn.

Slightly OT but how feasible could such a route be today if it was priced competitively with NX and allowed through ticketing with More and Bluestar local bus networks.

Unlike the previous incarnation which I believe served Burley and Lyndhurst, a new Bmth - Soton service could run direct from Ringwood to Cadnam along the A31, then limited stop via the A336 and A35 to Soton. It could even be operated by coaches - like Stagecoach’s X5 between Oxford and Bedford - if GSC (Go South Coast) was able to invest in them.

 

[miklcct]

No not really a new route. Existed from 1980 onwards and operated IIRC every 90 minutes. Poole Bmth Ringwood Heathrow London Victoria.

National Express has frequently flip flopped between operating (1) Poole Bmth Ringwood Heathrow Victoria and (2) Poole Bmth Ringwood Heathrow Gatwick (with a separate service operating Poole Bmth Ringwood Southampton (sometimes) London Victoria.

The service between Bmth and London Victoria has sometimes been as frequent as hourly from 06:30 to 18:30 with an early morning dept at about 0300.

I'm sure that it didn't run before 17/5 this year because I checked if there were any coaches which I could use when I arrived the UK on 20/4, and I couldn't find any viable public transport at that time. Only when I changed the date after 17/5 a direct coach appeared.

If this route was running hourly in the past, but only 4 departures per day now, this is a vast deterioration in service. How few passengers are travelling between the airport now compared to the past when it offered hourly service?

About the point on mindset, my mindset is that cars are very expensive to run, to the extent that if I am not living in the rural area travelling long distance a few days per week, it will never be worthwhile to use a car, even when compared to taking taxis.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Slightly OT but how feasible could such a route be today if it was priced competitively with NX and allowed through ticketing with More and Bluestar local bus networks.

Unlike the previous incarnation which I believe served Burley and Lyndhurst, a new Bmth - Soton service could run direct from Ringwood to Cadnam along the A31, then limited stop via the A336 and A35 to Soton. It could even be operated by coaches - like Stagecoach’s X5 between Oxford and Bedford - if GSC (Go South Coast) was able to invest in them.

While this thread has discussed a litany of problems with rail in the Bournemouth area, the service to Southampton isn't really one of them. It's both fairly regular and fast, with the expresses doing the journey in half an hour (and even the stoppers only taking 50 minutes). Assuming that this coach follows the X3 route from Bournemouth to Ringwood, runs fast to Totton, and then the X7/X7R route to Southampton, I would expect it to take around 80-85 minutes. Even accounting for the walk between the centre and the station at both ends, that's going to be a good ten minutes slower than even the stopping services.

That said, it would probably compete well on price - if you charge the current network day ticket fare of £9.20 for a return, that undercuts the train (even for railcard holders) and the coach, but is probably high enough to make the service viable. I'd also expect it to do well with the intermediate stops like Boscombe, the hospital, Ringwood, and Totton, which either have no train service or only slower services. But overall, that corridor seems best to leave to the train - it'd make more sense for Go South Coast to invest in further improvements to its local services.

 

[PTR 444]

While this thread has discussed a litany of problems with rail in the Bournemouth area, the service to Southampton isn't really one of them. It's both fairly regular and fast, with the expresses doing the journey in half an hour (and even the stoppers only taking 50 minutes). Assuming that this coach follows the X3 route from Bournemouth to Ringwood, runs fast to Totton, and then the X7/X7R route to Southampton, I would expect it to take around 80-85 minutes. Even accounting for the walk between the centre and the station at both ends, that's going to be a good ten minutes slower than even the stopping services.

That said, it would probably compete well on price - if you charge the current network day ticket fare of £9.20 for a return, that undercuts the train (even for railcard holders) and the coach, but is probably high enough to make the service viable. I'd also expect it to do well with the intermediate stops like Boscombe, the hospital, Ringwood, and Totton, which either have no train service or only slower services. But overall, that corridor seems best to leave to the train - it'd make more sense for Go South Coast to invest in further improvements to its local services.

You could make it slightly quicker by going via the X6 route rather than the X3 route between Bmth and Ringwood. Boscombe won’t lose out much as it isn’t a major destination and is served relatively well by the train from Pokesdown, therefore you could have a 15 minute interval service to Ringwood along the A338 spur road. 2bph via Boscombe (X3) and 2bph direct calling only at Bmth Hospital (X6 and Soton route).

As for the Totton end, it may be quicker to route it via the A326 and A35 with a stop at Rushington Roundabout rather than the A336/A36, bearing in mind the latter route is slow and can get rather congested at peak times. Yes, it would be further from Totton town centre but passengers on Bluestar 9 can already cope with their service not serving the town directly, so wouldn’t be too different here.

 

[Titfield]

I'm sure that it didn't run before 17/5 this year because I checked if there were any coaches which I could use when I arrived the UK on 20/4, and I couldn't find any viable public transport at that time. Only when I changed the date after 17/5 a direct coach appeared.

If this route was running hourly in the past, but only 4 departures per day now, this is a vast deterioration in service. How few passengers are travelling between the airport now compared to the past when it offered hourly service?

About the point on mindset, my mindset is that cars are very expensive to run, to the extent that if I am not living in the rural area travelling long distance a few days per week, it will never be worthwhile to use a car, even when compared to taking taxis.

OT but a further response. National Express effectively shut down due to Covid and is now slowly reintroducing services (and frequencies) as demand grows. Post Covid the demand is growing back quite slowly partly because demand is driven by many external factors.

The problem is once you buy a car you will use it as your default option because most of the costs are sunk (fixed), the only true variable costs are fuel and sometimes parking. Once you have a car mind set it is almost impossible to persuade people with that mind set to change.

A classic example are those who no longer travel to work / ferry kids around and do very little mileage. IMHO they would be better off using their free bus pass, having home delivery (very often at very little cost because they can pick a low cost slot) and using a taxi where necessary. The saving of car tax, insurance, annual servicing, fuel and parking could make this budget neutral or even budget positive. I havent factored in depreciation which can be quite high but is unseen.

 

[miklcct]

The problem is once you buy a car you will use it as your default option because most of the costs are sunk (fixed), the only true variable costs are fuel and sometimes parking. Once you have a car mind set it is almost impossible to persuade people with that mind set to change.

Please be reminded that insurance, road tax and sometimes maintenance are an annual cost, although depreciation is mostly a sunk cost. If I know that I won't do high mileage in the coming few years, I will sell my car.

 

[RT4038]

A classic example are those who no longer travel to work / ferry kids around and do very little mileage. IMHO they would be better off using their free bus pass, having home delivery (very often at very little cost because they can pick a low cost slot) and using a taxi where necessary. The saving of car tax, insurance, annual servicing, fuel and parking could make this budget neutral or even budget positive. I havent factored in depreciation which can be quite high but is unseen.

But it is the freedom of having your own transport - not being reliant on someone else's routes and timetables, or the vagaries of the taxi industry. I may be financially better off getting rid of the car, but that is not the point - while I can afford to run a car I will continue to do so for convenience.

 

[miklcct]

But it is the freedom of having your own transport - not being reliant on someone else's routes and timetables, or the vagaries of the taxi industry. I may be financially better off getting rid of the car, but that is not the point - while I can afford to run a car I will continue to do so for convenience.

Taking a taxi is more convenient than driving a car because you can hail it anywhere along the street and don't worry about finding a parking space in the crowded city centre.

 

[RT4038]

Taking a taxi is more convenient than driving a car because you can hail it anywhere along the street

Can you really reliably do that in Poole & Bournemouth, at any time of day or night? Certainly can't in my home town. They rank in two places (town centre and railway station) during the day (and you won't find any at school contract time) - the rest of the time it is on 'phone/app demand, and they'll come when convenient for them, which may be convenient for me also. In practice there is no hailing on the street. Whereas my car is there for when I want it. I certainly wouldn't hire a taxi for a 40 mile trip, except in extreme circumstances, but my car will take me there in a fraction of the time taken by public transport.