SWT and Weekend First

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by blakey1152, 23 Aug 2015.

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  1. blakey1152

    blakey1152 Member

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    Travelling back yesterday from Warminster.
    Caught a direct train from Warminster to Waterloo and it was exceptionally busy so opted to sit in First Class and pay the £5 upgrade rather than stand.

    Because I have a Network Railcard I had to split the tickets at Salisbury in order to get the discount I was surprised when the guard said that I would normally have to pay £5 for each section of the journey (£10) as two tickets were held but it said not to worry this time as he was changing in a few minutes at Salisbury anyway so the next guard would collect the £5 for the Weekend First upgrade.

    Is this correct or should technically be only one upgrade charge?
    I am interested to know as if its 2 lots of £5 if I ever did it again I would sit in Standard until Salisbury :)

    Blakey
     
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  3. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    I've upgraded many times on SWT using split tickets and only ever had to pay one upgrade fee.

    Surely the upgrade is per journey and you are allowed to use more than one ticket for a journey.
     
  4. sushiuk

    sushiuk Member

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    Does anyone know if you can upgrade with the 'free' all day tickets that come with a Gold Card ... and if so does the upgrade apply for all your journeys on SWT that day using the 'free' ticket?
     
  5. James Wake

    James Wake Member

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    No you can't, its in the conditions in the letter, anyway on my day out with that type of ticket, the trains weren't busy anyway, and I only sat in first class once as it was declassified by the guard.
     
  6. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    I would imagine it's for the ticket held and it's not transferable to another ticket on another journey.
     
  7. gazthomas

    gazthomas Established Member

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    Me too
     
  8. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    That would make the ticket transferable surely then? By that I mean if you are splitting a ticket, the upgrade is only valid towards one ticket as opposed to a journey, they are two different things altogether.
     
    Last edited: 24 Aug 2015
  9. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    I don't understand what you're getting at.

    Let's say I'm making a journey from Stevenage to Digby & Sowton. I could purchase a Stevenage-Pinhoe ticket and combine it with a Pinhoe-Digby 7 Sowton ticket.

    I'm allowed to use two or more tickets for one journey. If I choose to travel 1st class at the weekend between Waterloo and Exeter then the cost is £5 per journey. Transferring tickets doesn't come into it.

    I've used Weekend First using split tickets on Virgin (EC & WC), and FGW as well as SWT and never been charged multiple upgrade fees.
     
  10. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    The question was are you allowed to? I don't believe you are as once your initial journey finishes I would imagine it's not transferable, why would it be? The question should be is SWT's weekend first transferable from one journey to another, using two tickets on one journey is allowed but is a continuous upgrade allowed alongside with it?

    To your example, yes there would be no reason to why you couldn't do that but I was referring to using it on two or numerous swt services.
     
    Last edited: 24 Aug 2015
  11. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    That is probably down to how it is issued - is it an excess (which must relate to one numbered ticket) or is it a separate entity?
     
  12. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    Weekend first used to be hand written and attributed to one ticket and the number was written in, I would say an excess of class but again that's my opinion and not written, to be fair there are only a few journeys on swt where you would change on to another swt service both with 1st class (Netley line?), I doubt the guard would challenge it.
     
  13. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    Your use of 'transferable' is confusing! In railway ticketing terms I transferring means giving a ticket to someone else to use.

    What you are actually saying is that the Weekend First upgrade is per ticket not per journey.

    Condition 19 of the NRCoC states

    Virgin Trains East Coast state:

    https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/special-offers/travel-savings/travel-in-style-for-less/

    This makes the position very clear and to be fair other train companies aren't always as specific. SWT refer to an upgrade as 'per person' rather than per journey however I believe that if they intended to restrict upgrades to per ticket then they would need to explicitly state so.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    It's issued as a separate supplement, not an excess. There's no keying in of ticket numbers or anything like that.
     
    Last edited: 24 Aug 2015
  14. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    Or transferring from one journey to another and that is what is happening in reality, in your example given you are not using it for two journeys at all, for a portion of that journey you are travelling in a different class by supplement/excess (call it what you may).

    Yes that's what I am saying, if you hold two tickets for one journey say bmh/sou - sou/wat is the weekend first valid for only one ticket/portion of that journey? in experience I would say yes but I don't work for swt, also I would find it hard to believe a guard would say you have to pay twice but I believe technically he could as it two tickets on one journey.
     
  15. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    But I'm making one journey.

    Do you agree that I may use two or more tickets to make one journey?
     
  16. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    Of course you can, you could use 100 if the trains stopped there, a supplement/excess is a different thing entirely.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Contractually you are making a number of journeys as when you reach your destination that ticket becomes used and then invalid, your new one (providing the service stops there becomes your new one for a new journey) in place becomes your valid ticket BUT technically its a new journey on a different ticket.
     
  17. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    ????? So your answer is both absolutely yes and absolutely no at the same time?
     
  18. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    Are you familiar with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage?

    I think you need to have a read. Contractually you may use two or more tickets for one journey.
     
  19. headshot119

    headshot119 Established Member

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    Afraid you are mistaken in your assumptions. You need to have a read of the NRCOC to understand the use of multiple tickets for one journey.

    VTWC, FGW, and TPE have sold me weekend first upgrades for one journey on split tickets. They've all also sold me a weekend first upgrade where a change of train ins involved.

    In some cases that's meant TPE Northern TPE and I've been able to use the upgrade on both TPE trains.
     
  20. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    I think I have said that, what I am saying is can you use a supplement on a different ticket? Can you use it on one ticket and then on another. I'm well aware of the conditions of carriage, where have I said you couldn't or can't use more than one ticket? A ticket of travel is not a supplement/excess.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I didn't say as a definite, where does it say an excess/supplement can be used on multiple journeys? It never used to be on weekend 1st, that's where I'm getting my logic from, whether they sold you them and they were actually allowed is another thing altogether isn't it?
    How can they sell you something when they don't know the level of availibilty with it?

    An example would be I bought a DBY/BHM upgrade on board and then afterwards boarded BHM/RDG but it was full what would you do? How could the train manager know? It's pure speculation it could be used, it being allowed is another matter.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    What am I saying yes and no to?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    If I booked a weekend first or supplement through star would it allow this?
     
  21. embers25

    embers25 Established Member

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    The key here seems to be that this would likely have been a Salisbury based guard. Unfortunately several Salisbury guards are a law unto themselves and either let everything go (even advances on wrong trains) or let nothing go, even when completely valid. It is totally pot luck on SWT through Salisbury in my experience. Some guards refuse tickets even when both their machine and the National Rail site say they are ok and I have a printed itinerary. The station managers at Salisbury are mostly equally as uninformed and so it is often a battle sadly. What I find most frustrating is not that they question perfectly valid tickets/combinations of tickets but that they refuse to accept any evidence that they could actually be wrong. Portsmouth and Weymouth line guards, in my experience, tend to be much more consistent and also much more willing to listen.
     
  22. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    That's my point because a guard allows it does not mean at all that's its correct, because it weighs in the favour of the user its naturally assumed to be so, if it were the other way around it would be questioned, I'm not 100% but how could you quota control it ? The train has left and you are selling a supplement for another train? I always thought supplements were sold on board as the discretion of the guard? How would they feel others selling on their behalf without the pass loadings?
     
  23. embers25

    embers25 Established Member

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    I agree with you. I thought it was always supposed to be for the one train and more than one train should mean an additional supplement. However in this case it was for one train with split tickets and so that should surely have been 1 upgrade, even with split tickets. If the journey was Templecombe to Warminster I would expect it to need 2 upgrades, one for each train...however unreasonable that is.
     
  24. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    It always used to be that way (I understand things change), how could it be monitored and controlled? Again just because something has been allowed does not mean it is correct, tickets numbers always have to be inputted whether it be excess or supplelemts in star so I would assume you couldn't transfer onto another service, journey or ticket as there would be no control on it, being on the same train with two different tickets is the same thing technically, you could have 15 tickets between Wat/Wey and as long the services stopped at the tickets origin/destination en route there wouldn't be an issue.

    I think people here for the sake of their benefit see an excess/supplement as a whole part of a journey as opposed to a singular ticket excess, whether a
    guard allows it is another thing altogether.
     
  25. talldave

    talldave Established Member

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    The problem appears to be that SWT aren't unambiguous in their wording, as to whether they're referring to a journey or a ticket. The solution, therefore, is a straightforward clarification of the wording on their part.
     
  26. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    Weekend First Upgrade

    Upgrade from Standard to First Class at weekends and public holidays, for just £5.00 per person. Just take a seat in First Class and buy your upgrade from the Guard. Upgrades are available for holders of all Standard Class tickets (except megatrain and megabusplus) and is subject to available space


    I would say from this it's one train at a time, how would the guard know of another service being available? Certainly when booking excess/supplements from star a ticket number is entered only valid with that original ticket, why would this be different?
     
  27. headshot119

    headshot119 Established Member

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    There is no ticket number entered onto a weekend first upgrade. It isn't issued like an excess.

    You are making assumptions and don't have evidence to back it up.

    As I've said three different TOCs have sold me one weekend first upgrade when using a combination of tickets. First Great Western also confirmed this in writing to me.

    Where is your evidence that this wouldn't also apply to SWT?
     
  28. benk1342

    benk1342 Member

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    It's true that the language on SWT's website leaves a lot to be desired. As you point out, it says only that it is £5 per person, on weekends and public holidays. It gives no indication about whether the fee is per journey or per ticket.

    For what it's worth, the description of the product on the National Rail website (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx) is a little better:

    That it is "between any two South West Trains stations for £5.00" indicates that the fee is per journey - it is not limited to the combinations of tickets you hold.

    This is also consistent with how Delay Repay is handled - on a per journey, rather than per ticket, basis.

    If I were a judge and were required to make a ruling under contract law, this is the conclusion I would reach.
     
  29. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    That doesn't make them right though does it? Evidence? When you buy an excess from star you need a ticket number, when you buy a weekend upgrade from star you need a ticket number.
    FGW confirmed what to you?

    I'm not assuming anything, all this is common knowledge, how in hell could a FGW manager sell something he knows nothing about (another service)? It makes no sense at all, weekend first is a supplement and for that in star you still need to enter a ticket number.

    Send me that letter and I'll look into it.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    You can only be on board one train at one time.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    As I have already written tickets are contracts as such and if you travel on a journey from Wat to Wey with two tickets held Wat/Sou Sou/Wey then even though it is one through journey contractually it is actually two separate journeys.
     
  30. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    The conditions of carriage disagree with you.
     
  31. iwearahalo2

    iwearahalo2 Member

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    Where?
     
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