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Taking photos at Waterloo station, is it illegal?!

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Blaahh

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So there i was quietly today using my spare 5 minutes to take shots of 458s and 455s on platform 19, having just arrived in my normal commute from the south coast - when i was rudely yelled at several times by an officious SWT official who told me i had to stop as i couldnt take pictures on the station and then proceeded to escort me out.

I get the 'dont use flash' - i wouldnt want to blind a driver, of course i get the 'dont take photos at end of platform', as people wonder if you will jump. But!!

Rant over, are there bylaws that say taking photos at Waterloo or any other station, are prohibited - to the learned knowledge please?
 
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timbo58

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You can be asked to leave, and I've seen it many times before.
However I am not aware of the bylaw that pertains (not saying there isn't one mind).

Always best to check with the DSM before taking photos, especially given the current security scare situation.

Certainly NR have nothing apart from:
Photography
You can take photographs at stations provided you do not sell them. However, you are not allowed to take photographs of security related equipment, such as CCTV cameras.

Flash photography on platforms is not allowed at any time. It can distract train drivers and train despatch staff and so is potentially very dangerous.

Tripod legs must be kept away from platform edges and behind the yellow lines. On busy stations, you may not be allowed to use a tripod because it could be a dangerous obstruction to passengers.
 
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RPM

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It's not illegal but it is private property and TOCs/NR like photographers to notify staff of their presence and sign in if required. Obviously if you are just taking a couple of shots between trains this can be problematic. You just have to take pot luck really and take it in good humour if you are asked to desist.
 

Bevan Price

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It is not illegal. Assuming you were not doing anything stupid, e.g. standing in a potentially dangerous location, you have probably just encountered some obnoxious jobsworth type.

Unfortunately, as an authorised official, (and thus a representative of the property owners) he does have the power to ask you to leave the station for any reason.
 

185143

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Bevan Price:2050657 said:
It is not illegal. Assuming you were not doing anything stupid, e.g. standing in a potentially dangerous location, you have probably just encountered some obnoxious jobsworth type.

Unfortunately, as an authorised official, (and thus a representative of the property owners) he does have the power to ask you to leave the station for any reason.
Even if you have a valid ticket for travel?
 

D6975

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Take a look at the BTP website, there's a page on rail enthusiasts and photography at stations. Handy to have a copy of it in your bag when in London, I've been asked to stop taking photos at Liverpool St, Victoria, Kings Cross and London Bridge. At London Bridge I wasn't even taking photos at the time, I was sitting on a bench scrolling through shots I'd taken earlier.

put

btp photos at stations

into google and it'll come up as the first hit.
 
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HarleyDavidson

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I've had a similar experience in the past an New Street, two security bods challenged me about my taking photos of trains, they got rather more than they bargained for when they were told in no uncertain terms to take a hike as I was doing nothing wrong, probably because I produced a rail staff photo ID & a set of passes.

As timbo & RPM have said just go and ask before you start taking photos, usually the platform staff are more than happy to let you do so and as long as they know, it should be fine & if you have a valid rail ticket you do have a valid reason for being there. But it's just being polite to ask for permission & let them know what you're up to.
 

RPM

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So there i was quietly today using my spare 5 minutes to take shots of 458s and 455s on platform 19, having just arrived in my normal commute from the south coast - when i was rudely yelled at several times by an officious SWT official who told me i had to stop as i couldnt take pictures on the station and then proceeded to escort me out.

I get the 'dont use flash' - i wouldnt want to blind a driver, of course i get the 'dont take photos at end of platform', as people wonder if you will jump. But!!

Rant over, are there bylaws that say taking photos at Waterloo or any other station, are prohibited - to the learned knowledge please?

If you are a regular SWT commuter and you feel you were spoken too rudely or inappropriately you could always raise a complaint.
 

455driver

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It is not illegal. Assuming you were not doing anything stupid, e.g. standing in a potentially dangerous location, you have probably just encountered some obnoxious jobsworth type.

Unfortunately, as an authorised official, (and thus a representative of the property owners) he does have the power to ask you to leave the station for any reason.

I had similar at Woking platform 3 (including being marched off the station) but a quick phone call to my train crew supervisor on platform 1 telling them I wouldnt be at work that day (and the reason why) soon sorted the problem! :lol:

He never spoke to me from that day until the day I left SWT which was several years later. :lol:
 

Bevan Price

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These types of incident make me wonder if there are some people who should never be employed in jobs (on rail, or elsewhere) that bring them into contact with the general public / customers.
 

185143

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455driver:2050685 said:
It is not illegal. Assuming you were not doing anything stupid, e.g. standing in a potentially dangerous location, you have probably just encountered some obnoxious jobsworth type.

Unfortunately, as an authorised official, (and thus a representative of the property owners) he does have the power to ask you to leave the station for any reason.

I had similar at Woking platform 3 (including being marched off the station) but a quick phone call to my train crew supervisor on platform 1 telling them I wouldnt be at work that day (and the reason why) soon sorted the problem! :lol:

He never spoke to me from that day until the day I left SWT which was several years later. :lol:
Reading that has literally made my Day!:D
 

Bertie the bus

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Always best to check with the DSM before taking photos, especially given the current security scare situation.

No it isn't. Never check with anybody or ask permission unless you want to gain access to a gated station and you don't have a ticket. However, if you are intending to be at a station for a long period, especially a station which doesn't get many enthusiasts it can't do any harm notifying staff of what you are doing.
(Note the use of notifying them, not asking their permission)
I know taking photos of trains is a fairly trivial thing but bringing up “the current security scare situation” does make me angry. Using security to restrict harmless and legal activities, no matter how unimportant the activity is, is just the thin end of the pretty unpleasant wedge and should be challenged whenever it rears its ugly head.
 

Darandio

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No it isn't. Never check with anybody or ask permission unless you want to gain access to a gated station and you don't have a ticket.

Bad advice.

And if that is what you personally do, you are just as much part of the problem.

Edit*

I see you modified your post now. The point still stands.
 
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timbo58

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Thank you Bertie for your opinion which hasn't changed my advice, based as it is on 15 years 'real world' customer facing railway roles.
Security staff are routinely given a nudge to 'watch out' when security in the country as a whole becomes tighter, this may or may not have an effect on the majority going about their lawful business, however it is naive to pretend it doesn't have an affect.

You might well be arguing the 'legal' moral/both standpoints but it is sensible to point out what is normally expected, especially when it costs nowt and doesn't inconvenience more than a micron.

FWIW, I was accused of being a jobsworth more than once and every single time it was because I was doing a job that had specific parameters, it bloody annoys me when people use 'jobsworth' when attempting to deride people going about their employment in the manner in which they are instructed.
 
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Aictos

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Okay I've travelled though Kings Cross, Paddington, Waterloo, St Pancras, London Bridge, Marylebone, Euston and Victoria with following results:

St Pancras, Victoria, London Bridge, Euston and Kings Cross I was merely changing between trains and had no issues at all.

Waterloo, Marylebone and Paddington I was spending longer there so signed in with Network Rail/Chiltern, Waterloo they had to ask SWT Control for permission to allow me to take photos of trains, Marylebone and Paddington were more relaxed as once I signed in they were contend to let me enjoy getting the photos I wanted. Blackfriars even though I was merely passing though still insisted on having me sign in even though I was only on platforms for less then 10 mins.

Gatwick Airport however was nothing more then a poor Carry On rip off with first visit because told "photography is illegal here cause aircraft fly over the railway", second visit been told "no such ban in place" and third visit "yup, def a ban as photography is illegal here"!

Gatwick Airport as such is not a place I recommend for the poor training that Gatwick Express staff get, you can go to Myrtle Avenue near Hatton Cross with aircraft literally above you as you take their photos so why Gatwick thinks it's special is beyond me.

In all I think it depends on the station and operator.
 
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Blaahh

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If you are a regular SWT commuter and you feel you were spoken too rudely or inappropriately you could always raise a complaint.

Nah, his manner annoyed me but dont want to be persona non grata on my home network and i had to go, so no real problem. Just thought it was interesting and will remember for the future, thanks all for the advice. It does always surprise me how much ire,trouble and abuse, this harmless interest of ours encounters at times!
 

Temple Meads

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I've done hours of photography at staffed London stations (only signing in at Stratford International) and I've never had any 'jobsworth' issues bar the odd friendly word! Can't say I've spent much time with the camera at Waterloo, though.

It is understandable for staff to be more 'alert' at the moment, especially in large cities, and I've no issue with being asked what I'm doing, as long as the staff conduct themselves in a reasonable manner.
 

deltic

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Okay I've travelled though Kings Cross, Paddington, Waterloo, St Pancras, London Bridge, Marylebone, Euston and Victoria with following results:

St Pancras, Victoria, London Bridge, Euston and Kings Cross I was merely changing between trains and had no issues at all.

Waterloo, Marylebone and Paddington I was spending longer there so signed in with Network Rail/Chiltern, Waterloo they had to ask SWT Control for permission to allow me to take photos of trains, Marylebone and Paddington were more relaxed as once I signed in they were contend to let me enjoy getting the photos I wanted. Blackfriars even though I was merely passing though still insisted on having me sign in even though I was only on platforms for less then 10 mins.

Gatwick Airport however was nothing more then a poor Carry On rip off with first visit because told "photography is illegal here cause aircraft fly over the railway", second visit been told "no such ban in place" and third visit "yup, def a ban as photography is illegal here"!

Gatwick Airport as such is not a place I recommend for the poor training that Gatwick Express staff get, you can go to Myrtle Avenue near Hatton Cross with aircraft literally above you as you take their photos so why Gatwick thinks it's special is beyond me.

In all I think it depends on the station and operator.

Intrigued that it was a SWT member of staff who required the OP to leave and in the above case Network Rail sought permission from SWT control. Seems SWT rather than Network Rail think they run Waterloo station.

The only problem I ever had taking photos many years ago was the TPO staff at Euston who were not to happy and wanted to know what I was doing.
 

Aictos

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Intrigued that it was a SWT member of staff who required the OP to leave and in the above case Network Rail sought permission from SWT control. Seems SWT rather than Network Rail think they run Waterloo station.

The only problem I ever had taking photos many years ago was the TPO staff at Euston who were not to happy and wanted to know what I was doing.

All I wanted was a few selected photos of their trains and once I confirmed what it was I wanted and signed in complete with visitors pass & permission from SWT it was fine.

It was a day I had themed on getting railway related photos for a change, was surprisingly the differences in attitude between all the stations.
 

infobleep

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I member of station staff at Portsmouth and Southsea once delayed the departure of a train I was on because they had to come on board and tell me I needed to get permission before I took any photos at the station. All I was photographing was the station clock as my camera at the time regularly lost 60-70 seconds in time every 10 days.

The guard on the train, who also worked for South West Trains had never heard of such a rule.

I've rarely had any issues anywhere else on South West Trains managed stations or other company stations. Once I was told not to photograph the refurbishment of the waiting room on platform 9 and 10 at Waterloo as it was private.

Another time I decided to follow the sign for the Motor Rail at Euston. This being in 2011. Perhaps the sign has grade 1 or 2 listed status as no such service has run for some time. Anyway they were not keen on my photographing the drive way that use to lead to the platform. I may well have been in the wrong in this case but the sign did point to the Motor Rail being down that way.

My photography is usually whilst waiting for trains although sometimes I make exceptions for passing steam trains.

The other day I photographed the ice that had formed on the footbridge window near platforms 1 and 2, Guildford. The other week it was the unusual sight of my delayed 8.41 Surbiton arrival from Guildford being on platform 2. Platform 2 is the fast line. Most of the day trains stop at platform 1 to avoid holding up non stop trains. That morning it used platform 2, hence a photo to capture the moment.
 

45669

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One day last October I went up to London and as it was a brilliant sunny day I stopped at the end of the platform at Waterloo for a few minutes to take some pictures before heading off to the tube.

I was approached by a member of the station staff who told me that if I wanted to take pictures I must stay behind the yellow line. I had made a point of not passing the 'Passengers Must Not Pass Beyond This Point' sign but, apparently, I had stepped over the yellow line without realizing it.

I apologized and said that I hadn't noticed as I was concentrating on looking through the viewfinder and not looking at my feet. I said that I'd stand further back and he went off happy.

No mention was made about whether photography was allowed or otherwise.
 

yorkie

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I member of station staff at Portsmouth and Southsea once delayed the departure of a train I was on because they had to come on board and tell me I needed to get permission before I took any photos at the station. All I was photographing was the station clock as my camera at the time regularly lost 60-70 seconds in time every 10 days.

The guard on the train, who also worked for South West Trains had never heard of such a rule.
That's because there is no such rule. It doesn't exist.

However some security people like to invent their own 'rules', and there are insufficient safeguards, mystery shopping or regular checks in place to ensure that they do their jobs properly.

There are guidelines for railway enthusiasts advising them to "inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence" (irrespective of whether or not they are taking photos), but the way it's worded to me doesn't sound like it applies to rail passengers who are travelling by train and merely take photos (whether it be of architecture or trains) while changing/waiting.
 

Murph

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It is understandable for staff to be more 'alert' at the moment, especially in large cities, and I've no issue with being asked what I'm doing, as long as the staff conduct themselves in a reasonable manner.

The problem is that mindless harassment of innocent photographers actually proves to me that they are not doing the required job, and either individually or systemically are not smart enough to properly protect against serious threats. These types of action take their time and attention away from looking for the real threats. Additionally, they deprive the rail network of valuable volunteer eyes and ears which can help to spot the real threats (something acknowledged by both NR and BTP, that well behaved enthusiasts are a net positive to overall security).

To be clear, I have no complaint about or issue with a civilised interaction between security/staff and enthusiasts, only when the immediate reaction is that they are a threat which must be urgently dealt with, before even chatting to them. Targetting the wrong things mindlessly, and doing security things which are mainly along the lines of "we have to be seen to be doing something" (aka security theatre) mean that security resources are being squandered. When I see security theatre, it worries me, because it makes me think that the actually necessary and useful security might well be absent or substandard, due to them focussing on the wrong things or just not being intelligent about it.
 

plannerman

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Surely the increased use (and quality) of cameraphones should greatly reduce the problem... I bet most people can loose a decent shot off now without the jobsworths ever knowing.
 

pdeaves

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Surely the increased use (and quality) of cameraphones should greatly reduce the problem... I bet most people can loose a decent shot off now without the jobsworths ever knowing.

Quite. I don't know why 'they' think that those potentially up to no good will only use nice cameras. A bigger so-called threat must come from those taking selfies. Who knows *what* they are really taking pictures of, but it's an easy way of getting a picture of something 'secretly'.
 

Jonny

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Quite. I don't know why 'they' think that those potentially up to no good will only use nice cameras. A bigger so-called threat must come from those taking selfies. Who knows *what* they are really taking pictures of, but it's an easy way of getting a picture of something 'secretly'.

You seem to think it involves nice cameras - you're right, in fact I think it's envy...
 

infobleep

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That's because there is no such rule. It doesn't exist.

However some security people like to invent their own 'rules', and there are insufficient safeguards, mystery shopping or regular checks in place to ensure that they do their jobs properly.

There are guidelines for railway enthusiasts advising them to "inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence" (irrespective of whether or not they are taking photos), but the way it's worded to me doesn't sound like it applies to rail passengers who are travelling by train and merely take photos (whether it be of architecture or trains) while changing/waiting.
Yeah I learnt that on here some time later. During the period whilst I hadn't learnt this fact mind you I just carried on regardless. Lol
 

grid56126

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No it isn't. Never check with anybody or ask permission unless you want to gain access to a gated station and you don't have a ticket. However, if you are intending to be at a station for a long period, especially a station which doesn't get many enthusiasts it can't do any harm notifying staff of what you are doing.
(Note the use of notifying them, not asking their permission)
I know taking photos of trains is a fairly trivial thing but bringing up “the current security scare situation” does make me angry. Using security to restrict harmless and legal activities, no matter how unimportant the activity is, is just the thin end of the pretty unpleasant wedge and should be challenged whenever it rears its ugly head.

Go to Paris then, even before the recent issues there it is not uncommon to be questioned by the armed forces or police when pointing an SLR around. The the heightened security situation WILL be an issue whether you like it or not. Getting angry about it will just make you that. It will make YOUR blood pressure rise, but nobody else will care one hoot about your anger. This situation is not going to get better, it is very likely indeed it will get worse, so best see your doctor for some beta blockers.

There are some very very simple steps that we can ALL take.
PRINT a copy of the BTP guidelines before you set off.
Be POLITE when approached by people who do not understand these guidelines and ask them to read them. The amount of times I see vindictive comments on forums makes me ashamed at times. Jobsorths are in the main only doing what hey have been told and being rude and arrogant the their face or on a forum is exactly the same thing. I suspect the vast majority of people who come on here to rant do not have jobs where the public poke cameras around their work place!

The industry does need to do much more to brief staff on the situation. I have been involved in a few conversations with managers who have sent emails around on the subject, politely pointing them in the direction of the ATOC and BTP guidelines.

Network Rail tend to be the worst at this as the station staff they employ are in the main front of house staff and have no real involvement with the real railway and when they have a brief every shift telling them to look out for suspicious activity that is what they do. This is NOT over zealous. The closest I have ever been to an exploding bomb was the one that went off on the concourse at Victoria station. I was there ten minutes before it happened and the window of my office was shattered where I had been sitting. Unfortunately the people on the concourse were less lucky.

The signing in scenario is a bit of a shambles, I accept that, but at the same time I know, as does every single enthusiast who reads forums, they exist. If I jump off a train and see something I want a snap of, i will do so. I also acknowledge that an employee may come and ask me if I have signed in, at which point I will have little choice but to put my camera away. If I was going to a station to platform end I really cannot see why signing in is such an issue, other than to deliberately antagonise staff and allow people to come back to forums and say "I told you so".
 
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yorkie

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If I jump off a train and see something I want a snap of, i will do so. I also acknowledge that an employee may come and ask me if I have signed in, at which point I will have little choice but to put my camera away.
I'd ask politely what they were referring to. There is no requirement to 'sign in', and the 'Guidelines' which advise you speak to staff are worded as if they do not apply to passengers who simply take photos when changing trains.
 

grid56126

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I'd ask politely what they were referring to. There is no requirement to 'sign in', and the 'Guidelines' which advise you speak to staff are worded as if they do not apply to passengers who simply take photos when changing trains.


I talk about signing in, because if you go to "speak to staff" at places like Kings Cross and Paddington (at least) they ask you to do so. I am sure someone will be along to explain what civil liberty is being damaged by this.

I have thus far never been asked to stop taking pictures in this county, but I rarely pitch up tent these days for a few hours fotting which is what will attract attention. I have been stopped in Northern Ireland (1989) bu the RUC and some English squaddies and it was only the soldiers presence who understood "spotting" that saved me a trip to the local nick. I have been stopped in France (Paris Suburbs) by armed police and once in Slovakia as I had been videoing for a good couple of hours. The locals were called and checked me over and told me to naff off. All three experiences were just that, experiences, the Northern Irish one with guns being freely waved around has always been a story to tell and nothing else. None have stopped me enjoying the hobby and none left me angry.

I "Get" people being annoyed and feeling their liberties are being challenged, but at the same time i find it jaw droppingly amazing that in the same breath that people are moaning about somebody questioning what they are doing, they retort with vindictive taunts about jobsworths and people sticking cameras in the staffs faces to record the "confrontations".

"Should" I ever be stopped I will have a NON confrontational discussion with the member of staff and ask them to kindly look at the guidelines I have with me.

If "we" all adopt this principle then these "jobsworths" will understand the guidelines and that's what they will stay as. if every encounter becomes a rant on a forum and a confrontation I am not convinced the guidelines will stay in their current form.

This debate has been going on since the internet began and I suspect it will stay around for many years to come.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Go to 4.10 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjPGhV3su_0
 
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