Tap in/tap out debit card linked to your railcard?

[Howardh]

Greater Manchester is, slowly, introducing tap-in/out for some of it's rail stations. Great, very convenient and all that; however those like me with railcards won't get the benefit of a discount so we still need to purchase a ticket. I know some systems like the OV Chipcard in Netherlands can do this with specialist cards, maybe even Oyster in London (??) but I wonder if a better solution is to link your debit/credit card to your railcard - so that you go to the TFGM site, log in to your account, and submit both your railcard and debit/credit card number so that when you tap in/out, then the system recognises your card number is subject to a discount?

Is this technically possible, has it been done elsewhere? Or would there be to much fraud, even if accidental, ie. a younger spouse using their partner's card unwittingly?

 

[JonathanH]

Linking of railcards to Contactless is meant to be happening at some point in the future as part of Project Oval in the South East. However, the last information posted in this forum was that this element had been delayed.

The primary issue is revenue inspection that a railcard is attached to the bank card.

 

[Howardh]

Linking of railcards to Contactless is meant to be happening at some point in the future as part of Project Oval in the South East. However, the last information posted in this forum was that this element had been delayed.

The primary issue is revenue inspection that a railcard is attached to the bank card.

Thanks - so it's in the pipeline!

If there's a routine inspection, then they check your debit card to see you have tapped in, which should automatically indicate there's a railcard involved, so you just show the inspector your railcard too (as you would anyway)?

 

[JonathanH]

If there's a routine inspection, then they check your debit card to see you have tapped in, which should automatically indicate there's a railcard involved, so you just show the inspector your railcard too (as you would anyway)?

There is the problem. An inspector can't see whether the debit card is touched in or not. They just see that it isn't blocked for use. Therefore, at the moment, they wouldn't be able to see whether the bank card is linked to a railcard discount.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is the problem. An inspector can't see whether the debit card is touched in or not. They just see that it isn't blocked for use. Therefore, at the moment, they wouldn't be able to see whether the bank card is linked to a railcard discount.

With increasing mobile coverage fully online gate lines and inspections are likely to be feasible pretty soon, and are probably feasible now in the urban areas where this sort of thing is being rolled out.

 

[Howardh]

There is the problem. An inspector can't see whether the debit card is touched in or not. They just see that it isn't blocked for use. Therefore, at the moment, they wouldn't be able to see whether the bank card is linked to a railcard discount.

Interesting - so basically it's pointless an inspector checking the card, so they have no idea if you have tapped in or not? Clearly one would have to go through gates at either end, so fares can't be dodged, but I can't see why the fare can't be reduced if you can marry your railcard to contactless card?

 

[OscarH]

There is the problem. An inspector can't see whether the debit card is touched in or not. They just see that it isn't blocked for use. Therefore, at the moment, they wouldn't be able to see whether the bank card is linked to a railcard discount.

From a technical perspective, though it's a much bigger dataset, you could store the railcard linked card numbers alongside the blocked card numbers, so I don't see that as a huge hurdle. Tap-in/tap-outs are a bigger problem because they require live data

Linking of railcards to Contactless is meant to be happening at some point in the future as part of Project Oval in the South East

Given TfL and Cubic are involved I wouldn't get your hopes up for this decade

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting - so basically it's pointless an inspector checking the card, so they have no idea if you have tapped in or not?

But the back office knows if you’re not already tapped in that specific time. So failure to tap in results in a maximum fare being charged in due course. It’s not really pointless at all.

 

[Howardh]

But the back office knows if you’re not already tapped in that specific time. So failure to tap in results in a maximum fare being charged in due course. It’s not really pointless at all.

But how does the inspector know if to contact the office if he can't tell if the cards been tapped or not?

 

[swt_passenger]

But how does the inspector know if to contact the office if he can't tell if the cards been tapped or not?

He doesn’t need to contact the office. His reader uploads the details of every card he scans. If the card is already tapped in then there’s no further action needed. This has been explained many times before though.

 

[Howardh]

He doesn’t need to contact the office. His reader uploads the details of every card he scans. If the card is already tapped in then there’s no further action needed. This has been explained many times before though.

That's fine, clarified what was written above in post 4!

 

[Hadders]

There a couple of things here:

1. Revenue inspections - as explained above nothing is written to a contactless card when you touch in or out. When a revenue inspection takes place the card is scanned and later that day the data is uploaded to the system from the revenue inspection device. Overnight the system checks every card inspected against the touch in times. If the card was touched in before the revenue inspection then no further action is taken. If the card wasn't touched in then a maximum fare is charged (note not a penalty fare). Two maximum fares on the same card means it is blocked from being used again for travel.

2. Railcards - in theory simple to link a railcard to a card number in the back office. The problem is realistically there's nothing to stop someone giving a credit card to someone else (I know you're not supposed to but effectively there's no way to stop it on a mass transit system). This means that a credit card could be handed round friends and family to obtain discounted travel. The way round this is for a prompt to show on the revenue inspection device telling the inspector to ask for the railcard. Remember that nothing can be stored on the credit card to indicate this so you'd have to rely on a live link up to a central database.

Theoretically, a live link-up to a central database might be possible but would you trust Northern's staff and contractors to use it properly? I strongly suspect there'd be all sorts of threads in Disputes & Prosecutions where people were inspected but the link to the database was down so their railcard couldn't be verified but had details taken etc etc.

 

[py_megapixel]

What about the other way round? You link a railcard to a debit card, but the railcard is then what you tap to get the discounted fare and thus also what you present for inspection.

Clearly this would mean railcards would need to be issued with NFC chips in them, but that's not the end of the world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Theoretically, a live link-up to a central database might be possible but would you trust Northern's staff and contractors to use it properly?

Incompetent staff are a problem with any system of any kind.

 

[Hadders]

Incompetent staff are a problem with any system of any kind.

Indeed, but it’s not just the staff on the ground. Are you convinced the correct leadership and management culture is in place?

 

[jfollows]

Thanks - so it's in the pipeline!

Think Azerbaijan oil pipeline …..

 

[Hadders]

What about the other way round? You link a railcard to a debit card, but the railcard is then what you tap to get the discounted fare and thus also what you present for inspection.

Clearly this would mean railcards would need to be issued with NFC chips in them, but that's not the end of the world.

How are you processing payments without touching the payment card?

 

[87 027]

What about the other way round? You link a railcard to a debit card, but the railcard is then what you tap to get the discounted fare and thus also what you present for inspection.

Clearly this would mean railcards would need to be issued with NFC chips in them, but that's not the end of the world.

Wouldn't you have to flag the associated debit/credit card itself as invalid for travel in this scenario? Otherwise the same problem arises - presenting a bank card for travel with no real-time means of indicating it is only valid with an accompanying railcard?

 

[py_megapixel]

How are you processing payments without touching the payment card?

Payment is taken automatically from the payment card associated with the railcard.

Wouldn't you have to flag the associated debit/credit card itself as invalid for travel in this scenario? Otherwise the same problem arises - presenting a bank card for travel with no real-time means of indicating it is only valid with an accompanying railcard?

I was envisaging that the bank card would still be usable for travel but would be charged the full fare (and so would be valid without the railcard). To get the railcard discount you would have to touch in with the railcard.

 

[Howardh]

Think the simplest way is to have a railcard that you can load up with money and tap in/out with that. Isn't that how a concessionary fare with Oyster works (asking as I haven't a clue, never used one)?

 

[sprunt]

Think the simplest way is to have a railcard that you can load up with money and tap in/out with that. Isn't that how a concessionary fare with Oyster works (asking as I haven't a clue, never used one)?

Essentially, yes. But there's no reason you couldn't create a system where an Oyster style card is linked with a payment card in a back office system and then after travel the payment is taken from that, and it removes the responsibility to ensure the card is topped up.

 

[dmncf]

Essentially, yes. But there's no reason you couldn't create a system where an Oyster style card is linked with a payment card in a back office system and then after travel the payment is taken from that, and it removes the responsibility to ensure the card is topped up.

So would this be like a Southern KeyGo smartcard, but the smartcard would have the physical appearance of a Railcard?

 

[sprunt]

So would this be like a Southern KeyGo smartcard, but the smartcard would have the physical appearance of a Railcard?

Well, I've not got any detailed ideas as I'm just thinking on the spot in response to others' posts but I don't see why not - something with the holder's photo printed on the way photos are printed on driving licences comes to mind.

 

[Russel]

Why is this so difficult, with TFL I can register my card with them and open an online account, how can it not be possible to simply have an option to input a railcard number to link the railcard to the payment card and apply the discount?

I note the above concern regarding payment cards being passed around to share the railcard discount, but I could also hand my physical railcard out to any male friend or family member to use as it has no photo and as far as I'm aware, there is no requirement to carry ID to prove it's yours, so to me, this is a poor reason to delay implementation.

 

[SynthD]

how can it not be possible to simply have an option to input a railcard number to link the railcard to the payment card and apply the discount?

Payment cards cannot be given information, like a railcard number. They are read only.

 

[JonathanH]

as far as I'm aware, there is no requirement to carry ID to prove it's yours, so to me, this is a poor reason to delay implementation

There is no requirement to carry ID to prove that an ordinary Oyster card is yours. Once a discount is added, it becomes non transferable, and it becomes a requirement to be able to demonstrate the discount requirement. As others have said, the Contactless bank card can't hold information about the discount entitlement.

 

[OscarH]

KeyGo doesn't write railcard discounts to cards (at least didn't use to), so is effectively the same situation as associating a railcard with a card number online.

There is absolutely no excuse for TfL not to have introduced support by now, and for new contactless schemes in other cities (hopefully with different suppliers) supporting it from the start.

 

[JonathanH]

There is absolutely no excuse for TfL not to have introduced support by now

That is your opinion. TfL can point to Oyster, and suggest that passengers continue to use it if they want to use a railcard discount (recognising that it isn't validity doesn't extend as far as Contactless).

 

[OscarH]

That is your opinion. TfL can point to Oyster, and suggest that passengers continue to use it if they want to use a railcard discount (recognising that it isn't validity doesn't extend as far as Contactless).

Sure they can point at Oyster, but when they're shoving it down everyone's throat that you shouldn't use Oyster and should use contactless it grates when they give you no choice.

While there is a limited number of stations outside Oyster than contactless is valid, it's poor but not awful, but if they went live with Oval Phase 1 without railcards they're taking the mick

 

[Hadders]

Why is this so difficult, with TFL I can register my card with them and open an online account, how can it not be possible to simply have an option to input a railcard number to link the railcard to the payment card and apply the discount?

I note the above concern regarding payment cards being passed around to share the railcard discount, but I could also hand my physical railcard out to any male friend or family member to use as it has no photo and as far as I'm aware, there is no requirement to carry ID to prove it's yours, so to me, this is a poor reason to delay implementation.

Most (but not all) railcards require a photo.