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Tavistock to Bere Alston possible reopening: what infrastructure could be required and what service provision might operate?

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zwk500

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If you converted the line to tram-train ops ( as has been suggested a couple of times so it can run through Plymouth rather than round it - admittedly one of those was me ) would that open up any better opportunities for a terminus location in Tavistock? I don't really know where everything is in Tavistock.
It's 40m elevation difference between the old trackbed and the town centre, so you'd have a better chance with a tram-train but it'd still be some impressive gradients! https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/50.44361,-4.15725,15/pin
to get near the valley bottom you'd need a fair amount of new alignment.
 
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Irascible

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It's 40m elevation difference between the old trackbed and the town centre, so you'd have a better chance with a tram-train but it'd still be some impressive gradients! https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/50.44361,-4.15725,15/pin
to get near the valley bottom you'd need a fair amount of new alignment.

And a longer look at a map of the place doesn't give up any likely corridor into the town anyway, other than joining Callington Road from the old alignment, but there's nowhere really to terminate then unless it's somewhere down by the canal - and that'd require negotiating a junction with the main road to Plymouth, which sounds like a terrible plan.
 

Ashley Hill

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Hills are not a problem if an adequate car park is provided. Both Gunnislake and Okehampton are a hilly walk from the town yet are well patronised.
 

Bald Rick

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Hills are not a problem if an adequate car park is provided. Both Gunnislake and Okehampton are a hilly walk from the town yet are well patronised.

Accepting your point about hills not necessarily being an impediment to custom, I wouldn’t say an average 75 return trips a day is “well patronised” (Gunnislake).

if Tavistock was to have that few it would be an abject failure.
 

yorksrob

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By ‘happily move their building’, one assumes they mean ‘will relocate to alternative premises, assuming someone else pays the bill’.

They're probably looking to downsize their estate anyway, given the squeeze on local authorities over the past decade or so.
 

Meerkat

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One of the issues at Tavistock is this,preventing access to the original station from Kilworthy viaduct.
Photo Richard Long
View attachment 109240
It doesn't prevent it, just makes it expensive. Buy them all out, put the line in, build flats on any remaining space - they will be worth a few bob being right near the train into Plymouth.
 

Brush 4

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Better to buy these houses as they come on the market, until all are bought. Saves the nastiness of compulsoty purchase, and resultant bad publicity.
 

Bald Rick

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Better to buy these houses as they come on the market, until all are bought. Saves the nastiness of compulsoty purchase, and resultant bad publicity.

thing is, you might be waiting a long time. Also who pays?

also, it doesn’t avoid the need for a Development Consent Order, and all that is removed from it is the CPO element (which is typically a rather small part, as most owners are willing sellers when the appropriate carrot is dangled).
 

Brush 4

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DCC are driving this so, may be willing to speed up the process this way. Time wise there is no hurry as this is after the BA to Tavistock project, which itself hasn't got the green light yet. People move often these days in this time of job insecurity. Good to see that CPO offers a fair price though. I'll move in and wait for the offer.....
 

Bald Rick

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DCC are driving this so, may be willing to speed up the process this way.

They haven’t for the last 15 years, so can’t see them doing so now. They would need to explain to their council tax payers why they thought it was a good thing to buy property now (rather than when / if a decision was taken to build the line) compared to spending money on, say, education or social care.


Good to see that CPO offers a fair price though.

Statutory minimum is Market value (in a ‘no scheme’ world) +10% (up to £71k) + all ‘disturbance costs’ for the move eg legal fees, stamp duty on new property, removals, furnishings unable to be moved, etc.

Sometimes the acquiring authority will go beyond this statutory minimum.


I'll move in and wait for the offer.....

As previously, you’ll have a very long wait!
 

Brush 4

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I have time, I'm at Bude now, waiting for the ACE to arrive from London :rolleyes:
They would need to explain to their council tax payers why they thought it was a good thing to buy property now (rather than when / if a decision was taken to build the line) compared to spending money on, say, education or social care.
I doubt if they would notice, people don't know what councils are up to most of the time, until it is too late to complain.
 

zwk500

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I doubt if they would notice, people don't know what councils are up to most of the time, until it is too late to complain.
It only takes one person to do an FOI and the local paper to need something to fill up that weeks issue.
 

Meerkat

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also, it doesn’t avoid the need for a Development Consent Order, and all that is removed from it is the CPO element (which is typically a rather small part, as most owners are willing sellers when the appropriate carrot is dangled).
Most owners indeed, but you only need one "making war veteran homeless" ('sad face for the photographer please!')and you are starting to lose the PR war.
They haven’t for the last 15 years, so can’t see them doing so now. They would need to explain to their council tax payers why they thought it was a good thing to buy property now (rather than when / if a decision was taken to build the line) compared to spending money on, say, education or social care.
My council owns loads of property, including quite a few random places that they might need for future redevelopment or road improvements. Think it would come out of a different budget (and probably a different borrowing pool) than the other stuff, and BTL isn't exactly a risky game at the moment (they can always rent it to themselves to help out with their housing waiting list...). Often though NR should do this around level crossings so they can use the land or control the most likely objectors.
 

Brush 4

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Devon CC are putting out releases about Tav, eg. in the new Rail p28. NR have apparently done preliminary work on signalling at Bere Alston 'in anticipation of an early decision on the reopening' Enabling works I believe. That started at Okehampton, in Oct 2020, the official go-ahead was in March 2021. It would be sloppy management to undergo preparation work for something that is only hearsay at the moment. So, is there an announcement due in about 6 months or is it careless management? Or, are DCC misleading us?

If you want to wade through the full monty, here is the DCC submission from March 2021, which resulted in the Business Case award last October. Note reference to using Project Speed principles. The map of trackbed ownership near the end is interesting, as it shows DCC ownership of most of it except at the Bere Alston end, rather awkward.....

 
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Irascible

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Mmm, the postcode in the doc seems to be on the very edge of the current housing... that does not appear optimal! hopefully their station would actually be by the Callington Road.

Them bringing up deprivation made me go and check the local maps again - I knew it was bad ( hard not to notice ) but it's worse than I thought. If you look at Paignton, part of which is in the worst 200 areas nationally it's an indication that unfortunately trains do not do an awful lot to help :(
 

The Ham

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Them bringing up deprivation made me go and check the local maps again - I knew it was bad ( hard not to notice ) but it's worse than I thought. If you look at Paignton, part of which is in the worst 200 areas nationally it's an indication that unfortunately trains do not do an awful lot to help

Although it could be argued that by giving access to Tavistock doesn't necessarily aid people living there overly much it does give easier access to those elsewhere to get to Tavistock.

Whilst it's unlikely to have significant numbers traveling there for work it could be that those it benefits is >0.

Likewise it could enable people to move to a less deprived area and the potential for improvements for their families in doing so (as an example, whilst it may not increase the quality of the teaching a child receives it may be that they are in a class where a larger number wish to do well and so improve their chances due to being more likely to, at least, aspire to do more education and potentially at a higher level), although such changes are likely to be difficult to measure.
 

Meerkat

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NR have apparently done preliminary work on signalling at Bere Alston 'in anticipation of an early decision on the reopening' Enabling works I believe.
Any evidence of any work on the ground actually happening - could 'preliminary work' just be a desktop study of what exactly is there and in what condition and working out what could/would be done for a reopening, for informing the business case?

If you want to wade through the full monty, here is the DCC submission from March 2021, which resulted in the Business Case award last October. Note reference to using Project Speed principles. The map of trackbed ownership near the end is interesting, as it shows DCC ownership of most of it except at the Bere Alston end, rather awkward.....

https://devoncc.sharepoint.com/:w:/...0AH4BFnahRJ6j3E6yNVJsgy-syg?rtime=4aEYqtrh2Ug
Why is the station so far away - a long hilly walk for most of Tavistock, and not very direct for those the wrong side of the river. Not particularly enticing for tourists, not only being the wrong side of the valley for Dartmoor but a mile out of town.
I note that they reckon they can get 55mph for a single line - that doesn't bode well for use as a through route.
And its says there will be some switching from Gunnislake - that must make that line rather vulnerable.
 
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Irascible

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Why is the station so far away - a long hilly walk for most of Tavistock, and not very direct for those the wrong side of the river. Not particularly enticing for tourists, not only being the wrong side of the valley for Dartmoor but a mile out of town.
I note that they reckon they can get 55mph for a single line - that doesn't bode well for use as a through route.
And its says there will be some switching from Gunnislake - that must make that line rather vulnerable.

Where else are they gonig to put the statoin though? the original site isn't exactly that convenient either. There doesn't seem much room for buses no matter where they put it, is my concern. Possibly where all hte trees are up by the A390.

In the days when it was double track & clearences were tighter it wasn't exactly fast either. No point considering a through route when it's highly unlikely - I wish DCC would look at reopening elsewhere rather than that, but I get the feeling it's someone's dream.
 

JackMLeith

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The museum on platform 2 at Okehampton has details of how each section of the withered arm reachable from there was closed one after the other in quick succession. At the time the MP for the Torrington constituency which included Okehampton Peter Mills described this as creeping closures. Given that Okehampton was the last section to close and has now been the first to reopen, I expect we will now see a series of creeping reopenings. First Tavistock - Bere Alston, then Okehampton - Tavistock, Okehampton - Bude and Okehampton - Launceston, if not Okehampton - Padstow. Bude was until 20 November 2021 the furthest town in England from a railway station. I don't know where is now. Barnstaple - Ilfracombe is also a consideration in all this, however it will not occur on the same timescale as the original closures. Once Tavistock has reopened we will have an idea of the sort of interval to expect before the next reopening in the same area, however I would bet that it will be within 5 years.

They were talking about reopening to Okehampton as early as 1971! In the 1980s we were still seeing closures with the loss of Woodhead and March - Spalding, both vitally important trunk freight routes. The attempted and ultimately unsuccessful closure of the profitable Settle - Carlisle line made all future cases for closing a line untenable, a realisation that came only 30 years too late. Scotland were like with all things ahead of us with the Borders Railway in 2015 but now the tide has truly turned in favour of outright reopenings with Okehampton and I eagerly await the almost certain delivery of the next, which I anticipate to be the Newcastle, Ashington, Blyth and Tyne line, although this is more of a commuter line without the tourism potential of Dartmoor. I don't know how long they've been talking about reopening it because it will cost a lot more than Okehampton despite the track being extant for freight if several station buildings need to be built. At least conveniently Okehampton had an original one in good condition.

I think there are a lot of people who can't ever remember the railway to Portishead who are in support of opening one now and there still would be even if there was no one alive who could, as well as there being passengers under the age of 50 who are already regularly using the line to Okehampton and the Borders Railway, but not necessarily both. Okehampton was certainly not an existing railway. Other than for the glorious station building, no part of the line could be reused. The track had not previously been replaced since 1908 and Network Rail effectively needed to start from scratch. Modern equipment such as GSM-R had never been installed and without the construction of an entirely new railway, trains would have been limited to the 25mph of heritage railways. Bury - Rochdale would be useful but not without Bolton - Bury to create a through Manchester bypass route for local and long distance passenger and freight traffic from Southport, Kirkby and Wigan to the Calder Valley and Yorkshire freeing up capacity and improving reliability in congested Manchester. Reopening Kenyon Junction - Bolton via Leigh in conjunction and coming up with a way to weave it into the L&Y Trinity Street station (which would probably involve a tunnelling from Atherton to join the L&Y line somewhere between Trinity Street and Lostock Junction) would create a through route to Liverpool and Warrinton Bank Quay via Earlestown as well providing a direct service from Leigh, the biggest town in the north west without a railway station, to Liverpool, Wigan, Golborne (if reopened), Bolton, Bury and Manchester. Bury - Rawtenstall would be appreciated in conjunction with the return of heavy rail services and the carriage of bicycles to the Bury line (Metrolink to Rawtenstall is a non-starter) although the loss of the East Lancs Railway would be significant unless heritage services are given paths on the reopened line in addition to passengers and freight, even if only on certain days. I do admit that Ramsbottom - Accrington, Rawtenstall - Bacup and Rochdale - Bacup are unlikely though. If Bolton - Bury is not progressed then I would favour a shorter branch from Rochdale to Heywood, creating an end on connection with the East Lancs Railway rather than infringing it.

Skelmersdale, which is not the largest town in the north west without a railway station, requires 10 new track miles (some redoubling and some new construction) to be connected to Liverpool and Manchester (although Skelmersdale would be better served by a more frequent shuttle to Wigan Wallgate) while severing the direct service between Rainford and Upholland, but the issue with it is there is no existing commuting culture in Skelmersdale while there is no also reason to visit Skelmersdale from outside, so there will be little to no modal shift and it has to rely entirely on new passenger journeys. The most visited destination from Skelmersdale is Ormskirk which the railway doesn't intend to serve. From elsewhere, the present demand is not suppressed but rather non existent. Thats not to say Skelmerdale shouldn't be connected to the rail network, but as far as West Lancashire rail schemes go, the Burscough Curves require a tenth of the amount of new track and no land purchase to cut journey times from Southport to Ormskirk and Preston by hours, benefitting 10x more people in both urban and rural communities, including Southport and unlike Skelmersdale, the demand already exists to travel from Southport to Ormskirk, Preston and beyond and intermediate stations in between, it is merely suppressed by universal problems with the road network and the lack of an M59 motoray. I am not happy at all at the suggestion that there shouldn't be multiple reopenings within close proximity of each other because then neighbouring communities are having to fight against each other over who should have a railway. The Skelmersdale scheme can't be progressed benefitting only Skelmersdale at the expense of the Burscough Curves which provide benefits to many more people across the wider West Lancashire and surrounding areas, although Skelmersdale. It would be a larger project but if the Skelmersdale scheme is progressed, building a line from Ormskirk to Skelmersdale as a phase 2 would create a through route from Ormskirk to Wigan and Manchester and see trains much more heavily loaded, as well as improve the case for the aforementioned Manchester bypass line via Bury.

The Borders Line effect was that the Borders are no longer isolated from Edinburgh or the rest of Scotland (but remain isolated from Carlisle and the rest of England). I'm you are aware what my favoured reopening is, being isolated from Preston. When I visited Carlisle myself, it took me longer to get from Southport to Preston than from Preston to Carlisle, which was fortunate because I had to stand the whole way on a crush loaded TPE service.

There will simply have to be infrastructure work south of Bere Alston or it won't be possible to reopen to Tavistock with any more than a 2 hourly to Tavistock in the path of the present Gunnislake with an hourly Gunnislake - Bere Alston shuttle, but that wouldn't be much use without a Plymouth service for it to connect to. If you wanted to do no infrastructure work at all on the existing network, you could theoretically just extend the single platform track from Bere Alston to Tavistock and run a 2 hourly Plymouth - St Budeaux - Bere Alston - Tavistock - Bere Alston - Gunnislake - Bere Alston - Tavistock - Bere Alston - St Budeaux - Plymouth service with 1 unit but would hardly be the best way to have the infrastructure.
I'm the founder of JoinUp, a nonprofit venture aimed at joining up the Dartmoor and Tamar Valley Lines sooner.

Reinstatement of the whole route is the publicly stated aim of Devon County Council (DCC), which is pursuing a three phase strategy.

Phase 1 was Exeter-Okehampton, completed in November 2021 as we all know.

Phase 2 is Plymouth-Tavistock, the subject of DCC's Restoring Your Railway Fund submission in March 2021.

The proposed phase 2 service levels are set out in the main submission document and the appendices.

See also Reinstating Plymouth–Tavistock rail services on the JoinUp website, which consists of public and members-only areas. Membership is free.

Phase 3 is the missing bit in the middle, Tavistock-Okehampton, fraught with challenges which, once again, are widely known, among them Meldon Viaduct, Granite Way mixed use, Lydford-Tavistock land acquisition, and multiple obstructions in Tavistock. Plus funding, of course.

This is my first RailUKforums post. I've been trying to discover how to update my profile, without success. Instructions will be gratefully received.
 
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Cowley

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I'm the founder of JoinUp, a nonprofit venture aimed at joining up the Dartmoor and Tamar Valley Lines sooner.

Reinstatement of the whole route is the publicly stated aim of Devon County Council (DCC), which is pursuing a three phase strategy.

Phase 1 was Exeter-Okehampton, completed in November 2021 as we all know.

Phase 2 is Plymouth-Tavistock, the subject of DCC's Restoring Your Railway Fund submission in March 2021.

The proposed phase 2 service levels are set out in the main submission document and the appendices.

See also Reinstating Plymouth–Tavistock rail services on the JoinUp website, which consists of public and members-only areas. Membership is free.

Phase 3 is the missing bit in the middle, Tavistock-Okehampton, fraught with challenges which, once again, are widely known, among them Meldon Viaduct, Granite Way mixed use, Lydford-Tavistock land acquisition, and multiple obstructions in Tavistock. Plus funding, of course.

This is my first RailUKforums post. I've been trying to discover how to update my profile, without success. Instructions will be gratefully received.

I’ve sent you a pm Jack. Check your conversation messages when you get a minute.
 

MarkyT

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Where else are they gonig to put the statoin though? the original site isn't exactly that convenient either. There doesn't seem much room for buses no matter where they put it, is my concern. Possibly where all hte trees are up by the A390.

In the days when it was double track & clearences were tighter it wasn't exactly fast either. No point considering a through route when it's highly unlikely - I wish DCC would look at reopening elsewhere rather than that, but I get the feeling it's someone's dream.
Somewhere near the old station site might be serviced by means of a lift down to street level.
 

Irascible

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Somewhere near the old station site might be serviced by means of a lift down to street level.

Is there anywhere suitable near the old station that isn't actually *at* the old station? the station site looks like the only sane place for a bus terminal other than down the other end of town. Doing all this & not providing direct bus connections is IMO ridiculous.

As is the aim to reconnect the lines before reconnecting bits of N. Devon, but that's another thread & from what little I know of the devolution plan, apparently somewhat political.
 
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