technology, phone batteries and e-tickets discussion.

[Bletchleyite]

It relies on carrying the appropriate lead.

Put a short one in your wallet and you'll always have one.

 

[MarkyT]

Phones are complex devices which, with the best will in the world, can plausiby fail unexpectedly, whether with low power or component or software failure. Maybe a failed OS or app update might disable it in some way. On the other hand I accept the likelyhood of such failure at the critical time of inspection is very very small now the tech is fully mature. I've got a huge battery in my cheap-as-chips Oppo and it has never, ever failed me on the go, but if I was to buy an e-ticket for a long journey I would definitely also print it out at home as a back-up and put my wallet in a different pocket to the phone to counter theft. If my printer failed I'd find somewhere else to print it. I wouldn't do that for local journeys usually though, preferring to buy a paper ticket at a machine or the booking office. Another issue is dropping the phone, which might make it unusable. Dropping a paper ticket or the wallet it is contained within is highly unlikely to make it unusable unless a gust of wind catches it and blows it onto the track. I suggest guards and inspectors might carry a power bank with them that a customer might be able to use to attempt to liven up an unexpectedly dead phone (some guards may carry one already for their own official and personal devices). Some disabled, unwell or neurodivergent customers might find a phone failure followed by a penalty extremely traumatic. The industry needs efficient and robust revenue protection, but it must be sensitive to the flawed wetware that drives the self loading parcels around the system.

 

[Turtle]

Phones are complex devices which, with the best will in the world, can plausiby fail unexpectedly, whether with low power or component or software failure. Maybe a failed OS or app update might disable it in some way. On the other hand I accept the likelyhood of such failure at the critical time of inspection is very very small now the tech is fully mature. I've got a huge battery in my cheap-as-chips Oppo and it has never, ever failed me on the go, but if I was to buy an e-ticket for a long journey I would definitely also print it out at home as a back-up and put my wallet in a different pocket to the phone to counter theft. If my printer failed I'd find somewhere else to print it. I wouldn't do that for local journeys usually though, preferring to buy a paper ticket at a machine or the booking office. Another issue is dropping the phone, which might make it unusable. Dropping a paper ticket or the wallet it is contained within is highly unlikely to make it unusable unless a gust of wind catches it and blows it onto the track. I suggest guards and inspectors might carry a power bank with them that a customer might be able to use to attempt to liven up an unexpectedly dead phone (some guards may carry one already for their own official and personal devices). Some disabled, unwell or neurodivergent customers might find a phone failure followed by a penalty extremely traumatic. The industry needs efficient and robust revenue protection, but it must be sensitive to the flawed wetware that drives the self loading parcels around the system.

Very good post which, I think, covers most of the scenarios apart from sudden, unexpected smartphone "death". This happened to me some years ago with a brand new top range Samsung although not in a railway setting, fortunately.

 

[johntea]

The more modern phones these days such as my iPhone 14 will charge from dead to 50% or so within half an hour (albeit through a slightly more powerful wall power brick rather than a pound shop USB cable hanging out of a port on a train!)

I really can't see many situations where you would get through an entire day only for your battery to magically die when the ticket inspection comes round!

Phone damage can happen but in nearly 20 years of owning iPhone now I've managed to smash my screen...once

If a passenger is that worried then the ticket is also provided as a PDF file now compared to the early days of the dreaded 'mTicket', print it out before your journey!

I suspect most guards would just use their sixth sense to determine if a passenger had a genuine phone issue rather than just a chancer hoping to avoid paying their fare and would simply sell a new ticket to them rather than going straight for a penalty fare (bump into revenue inspection and perhaps a whole different story of course)

 

[MarkyT]

Very good post which, I think, covers most of the scenarios apart from sudden, unexpected smartphone "death". This happened to me some years ago with a brand new top range Samsung although not in a railway setting, fortunately.

That's a great example of the 'bathtub curve'. An early failure, probably due to some dodgy component that was borderline when it went through quality control, then failed shortly afterwards. Phones are very complex devices and a complete unexplained shutdown is highly plausible. Maybe advice could be to carry a second more basic phone for your e-tickets and not use your brand new top-of-the-range device until it has proved itself in general service for a few weeks.

 

[Turtle]

That's a great example of the 'bathtub curve'. An early failure, probably due to some dodgy component that was borderline when it went through quality control, then failed shortly afterwards. Phones are very complex devices and a complete unexplained shutdown is highly plausible. Maybe advice could be to carry a second more basic phone for your e-tickets and not use your brand new top-of-the-range device until it has proved itself in general service for a few weeks.

Good advice. I recollect it was the year Samsung were having quality control problems with their top range phones. Indeed, once repaired, it gave sterling service and I've kept it until today, more as a souvenir than as a backup.

 

[Sultan]

More than 100%? How do you do that?

Why did I write this?? Madness!! Although I do tend to find that the phone stays much longer at 100% than 99, 98, 97, etc.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It relies on carrying the appropriate lead.

Which is not the railway's responsibility....

 

[Peter Sarf]

Seriously? Perhaps in Yakutsk. Unlikely in Croydon

Well in Croydon and usually in a trouser pocket I notice a difference in battery left percentage on very cold days. Putting the mobile inside my jacket improves things, more noticeable improvement when I get indoors.

On the colder days this winter, when out, I have occasionally wondered if the battery will last the day.

 

[Jim the Jim]

I've had mobile phones for coming up to 30 years, probably around 30 different phones including work ones, and I have never, ever had one run out of battery unexpectedly. If you have an e-ticket, and your battery is low, leave it alone and it won't run out. Most phones these days have a power saving option and can eke out the last ~10% of battery for longer than any train journey that people take without a power source. And the phone suggests that, it's not something you need any technical ability to switch on

Of course there is the outside possibility of something failing unexpectedly, but that must be vanishingly rare. Chargers are on sale at a lot of stations too, certainly for less than the price of a penalty fare. So I really don't think it's a problem the railway has to find a solution for.

This isn't my experience. I have had phones run out of battery or be very close to the line frequently, and long train journeys are the place it's most likely to happen. I do usually carry a battery pack but things can go wrong there too (I forget to pack it, I forget to charge it beforehand). Sometimes I've assumed there will be charging facilities on the train and there aren't (sometimes just me being overconfident, but sometimes because the stock running isn't what's normally used).

I also on one occasion had a catastrophic failure of a phone rendering it virtually unusable, for no reason other than it was a few years old. Thankfully this happened the day after, rather than the day of, an international train journey for which I was using an eticket.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Pretty easy in my (iPhone) experience, just book an appointment and they'll change it for between £65 and £95, depending on model. Took about half an hour the last time I did it. And the second part of your statement isn't true (there have been bugs causing battery drain which came with some updates, but those are usually fixed quite quickly ...).

https://blog.solidsignal.com/tutorials/do-ios-updates-really-kill-battery-life/

It used to be easier when you could change the battery yourself. Think of the Nokia 3310 and suchlike - just unclip the cover and pop the battery out. Your not going to carry one or two spare batteries and swap them in and out as and when you need to these days.

Maybe the iPhone OS feature is an urban myth but I have seen more saying it exists than not exists. A step son has two iPhone 6s one he updates and one he does not. He has noticed a difference but that could perhaps be due to nature of use or what apps are on them if different.

 

[Energy]

Etickets already have a unique reference on the bottom of the ticket which is what the aztec code is encoded as, no different to the code underneath barcodes.


Example ticket courtesy of the SWR website.

No idea if any TOCs have the ability for their guards/revenue inspectors to manually type in a code.

Perhaps TOCs should have a free eticket print off facility at stations, if you notice your phone is on low charge you could scan it into a TVM and it would print it off on a piece of receipt paper for you.

 

[JamesT]

It used to be easier when you could change the battery yourself. Think of the Nokia 3310 and suchlike - just unclip the cover and pop the battery out. Your not going to carry one or two spare batteries and swap them in and out as and when you need to these days.

Maybe the iPhone OS feature is an urban myth but I have seen more saying it exists than not exists. A step son has two iPhone 6s one he updates and one he does not. He has noticed a difference but that could perhaps be due to nature of use or what apps are on them if different.

But how many people would carry about spare batteries in the days when you could swap them yourself? And then you'd need a special charger to charge your spares, or to be forever swapping out the batteries to keep them topped up.
The external batteries that use USB like everything else are much more user-friendly.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But how many people would carry about spare batteries in the days when you could swap them yourself? And then you'd need a special charger to charge your spares, or to be forever swapping out the batteries to keep them topped up.
The external batteries that use USB like everything else are much more user-friendly.

Yes nowadays I rely on external battery packs. There is a level of energy waste doing this as you are using one battery to charge another so you never get back what you put in the external battery. Another disadvantage is the Missus relying on my external battery to charge her phone risking leaving me high and dry !.

But in the past, when batteries were easier to swap, I did charge several batteries while they were in my phone. I could swap and charge one when I got home and another overnight. That was usually on the days leading up to a big trip or camping.

 

[HSTEd]

Perhaps we should have machines at stations that will scan an e-ticket from a phone or similar device, and print out a copy on a till roll (if it is a valid ticket that is).

 

[Llanigraham]

It's a figure of speech! They are larger than the phone. But even they still need to be kept charged.

My two power banks are no where near being bigger than my phone!
Power banks : 2cm x 2cm x 9.5cm!
Phone : 8cm x 18cm x 1cm

Perhaps we should have machines at stations that will scan an e-ticket from a phone or similar device, and print out a copy on a till roll (if it is a valid ticket that is).

Every station?
Have you worked out the number of printers that would require?
And what about the numerous stations that have no buildings?

 

[stuu]

But how many people would carry about spare batteries in the days when you could swap them yourself? And then you'd need a special charger to charge your spares, or to be forever swapping out the batteries to keep them topped up.
The external batteries that use USB like everything else are much more user-friendly.

I had a Motorola StarTac which was sold with an extra battery, because it was so feeble compared to a Nokia 3210 or whatever the competitors were, and I used to carry it round... bought entirely in the false belief that it would make me look cool

 

[m0ffy]

My two power banks are no where near being bigger than my phone!
Power banks : 2cm x 2cm x 9.5cm!
Phone : 8cm x 18cm x 1cm



Every station?
Have you worked out the number of printers that would require?
And what about the numerous stations that have no buildings?

Why is the lack of a building an issue? It’s an add-on to existing ticket machines.

 

[Energy]

Perhaps we should have machines at stations that will scan an e-ticket from a phone or similar device, and print out a copy on a till roll (if it is a valid ticket that is).

Perhaps TOCs should have a free eticket print off facility at stations, if you notice your phone is on low charge you could scan it into a TVM and it would print it off on a piece of receipt paper for you.

Great minds think alike?

Every station?
Have you worked out the number of printers that would require?

Wait until you find out about TVMs...

 

[D365]

Great minds think alike?

Absolutely...

It is a shame that stations do not provide a facility to print paper duplicates of etickets.

 

[Energy]

Absolutely...

Definitely then!

Etickets are created by signing with a private key, with the public key of the ticket issuer they can be decoded (excellent blog on them here). It wouldn't be particularly difficult for a machine to print the Aztec code and the details on a piece of receipt paper, though changing an e-ticket for a normal one would be more difficult.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Are the people who fail to charge their phones sufficiently (or charge on the go, or carry a power pack) in the same group as those who forget to put fuel in their car (or charge their e-vehicle) and require someone else to have a solution to their problem rather than taking some basic steps to be reasonably self-reliant? Those same people who get up in the morning and have to have a 'Whoosh' delivery of milk (at premium prices plus delivery cost) before they can have a cuppa because they never check the fridge?

The biggest risk to me seems to be loss of the phone itself (which could be forgetfulness or mugging etc) rather than total power drain.

The underlying worry behind the question is why I believe paper tickets should always remain available in some form for those that prefer that method - be it from a ticket office, a TVM, a guard held ticket machine or as a last resort the guard with one of the old paper 'excess fares' pads and a biro.

 

[Llanigraham]

Why is the lack of a building an issue? It’s an add-on to existing ticket machines.

Wait until you find out about TVMs...

And many stations don't have those.
And when they do sometimes they don't work!

Why can't members of the general public just take some responsibility for themselves and stop being mollycoddled like a 2 year old?

 

[m0ffy]

And many stations don't have those.
And when they do sometimes they don't work!

Why can't members of the general public just take some responsibility for themselves and stop being mollycoddled like a 2 year old?

Why can’t the railway make an effort to be customer friendly? If you want a move towards e-tickets, you have to recognise that technology is massively fallible, both on a hardware level and in the (often terrible) apps used by railway companies.
Customers are paying a small fortune for the privilege of the rail travel experience, yet we are treated worse by the railway than we are by airlines.

 

[Llanigraham]

Why can’t the railway make an effort to be customer friendly? If you want a move towards e-tickets, you have to recognise that technology is massively fallible, both on a hardware level and in the (often terrible) apps used by railway companies.
Customers are paying a small fortune for the privilege of the rail travel experience, yet we are treated worse by the railway than we are by airlines.

If one follows that to it's logical conclusion every retailer, of any type, that accepts e-payments/e-tickets of any kind, will be expected to provide recharging facilities. Do you honestly see that as either possible or probable?
And I'm sure I've read of airlines refusing to allow a passenger onto a flight when they didn't have the right things downloaded on to their phone or it wasn't visible.

 

[m0ffy]

If one follows that to it's logical conclusion every retailer, of any type, that accepts e-payments/e-tickets of any kind, will be expected to provide recharging facilities. Do you honestly see that as either possible or probable?
And I'm sure I've read of airlines refusing to allow a passenger onto a flight when they didn't have the right things downloaded on to their phone or it wasn't visible.

I’m not suggesting anyone provides charging facilities, I’m suggesting that TOCs take a more customer-centric approach to situations where a passenger has purchased a ticket but cannot prove it in the moment.
And I’m not interested in those airlines - they’re providing a budget service for a budget price, and they don’t have prosecuting powers. Even the cheapest of airlines have the ability (for a price) to reissue a boarding pass - those airlines that are price-equivalent to the railway don’t charge for the privilege.
As the industry moves towards electronic ticketing, it needs to move away from attacking customers with bylaws and double-charging legitimate passengers.

 

[a_user_123]

If one follows that to it's logical conclusion every retailer, of any type, that accepts e-payments/e-tickets of any kind, will be expected to provide recharging facilities. Do you honestly see that as either possible or probable?
And I'm sure I've read of airlines refusing to allow a passenger onto a flight when they didn't have the right things downloaded on to their phone or it wasn't visible.

With the blindingly obvious difference that it's not illegal to have your ticket checked, get on a flight and then your phone run out of battery.

Indeed, can anyone think of a single other scenario in which a phone dying unexpectedly having paid exactly what is due is illegal? I imagine it's not optimal to arrive at US immigration without being able to show a copy of a visa waiver but I suspect even in this case it would get sorted. Clearly it's much more important for the police to check that all car drivers have a license than to check rail passengers have a ticket, but I think you still get some days to produce this despite a card being arguably more failsafe than a phone.

Of course, the solution is easy: take the details of anyone who can't show an e-ticket, send them a letter and if they produce a valid ticket purchased beforehand accept that (charging a fee that corresponds to the genuine cost to the railway, which is probably about 10 minutes of someone's time and a stamp). But that would require deviating from the remarkable combination of incompetence and hostility to paying customers that British train companies have managed to achieve.

 

[Mikw]

I’m not suggesting anyone provides charging facilities, I’m suggesting that TOCs take a more customer-centric approach to situations where a passenger has purchased a ticket but cannot prove it in the moment.
And I’m not interested in those airlines - they’re providing a budget service for a budget price, and they don’t have prosecuting powers. Even the cheapest of airlines have the ability (for a price) to reissue a boarding pass - those airlines that are price-equivalent to the railway don’t charge for the privilege.
As the industry moves towards electronic ticketing, it needs to move away from attacking customers with bylaws and double-charging legitimate passengers.

I totally agree, If you've brought tickets but your phone packs up, no way should you be punished.

 

[Hadders]

I totally agree, If you've brought tickets but your phone packs up, no way should you be punished.

What should happen if you lose or have a paper ticket stolen?

Last year I had my wallet stolen on the Paris Metro. The wallet contained paper Eurostar/TGV tickets as well as credit cards, cash etc. Thankfully I was able to log into my Eurostar account on my phone and access etickets. My phone had my credit card stored in the Apple Wallet.

What I learned from this incident is that there is a level of risk involved whatever medium you choose to store your ticket on. If I'm making a long journey (whether rail or air) or attending an event I prefer to use an eticket which I'll normally display on my phone but I'll make sure I have either a paper back-up printed, or the eticket accessible through my work mobile mobile or partners phone.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If one follows that to it's logical conclusion every retailer, of any type, that accepts e-payments/e-tickets of any kind, will be expected to provide recharging facilities. Do you honestly see that as either possible or probable?
And I'm sure I've read of airlines refusing to allow a passenger onto a flight when they didn't have the right things downloaded on to their phone or it wasn't visible.

No because other retailers don't fine you £100 for losing your ticket. The railways are getting quite nasty.

I’m not suggesting anyone provides charging facilities, I’m suggesting that TOCs take a more customer-centric approach to situations where a passenger has purchased a ticket but cannot prove it in the moment.
And I’m not interested in those airlines - they’re providing a budget service for a budget price, and they don’t have prosecuting powers. Even the cheapest of airlines have the ability (for a price) to reissue a boarding pass - those airlines that are price-equivalent to the railway don’t charge for the privilege.
As the industry moves towards electronic ticketing, it needs to move away from attacking customers with bylaws and double-charging legitimate passengers.

Exactly.

With the blindingly obvious difference that it's not illegal to have your ticket checked, get on a flight and then your phone run out of battery.

Indeed, can anyone think of a single other scenario in which a phone dying unexpectedly having paid exactly what is due is illegal? I imagine it's not optimal to arrive at US immigration without being able to show a copy of a visa waiver but I suspect even in this case it would get sorted. Clearly it's much more important for the police to check that all car drivers have a license than to check rail passengers have a ticket, but I think you still get some days to produce this despite a card being arguably more failsafe than a phone.

Of course, the solution is easy: take the details of anyone who can't show an e-ticket, send them a letter and if they produce a valid ticket purchased beforehand accept that (charging a fee that corresponds to the genuine cost to the railway, which is probably about 10 minutes of someone's time and a stamp). But that would require deviating from the remarkable combination of incompetence and hostility to paying customers that British train companies have managed to achieve.

I think this is what should happen. An admin fee for the inconvenience caused to the TOC is fine but to get to £100 is nasty.

Maybe the TOCs need to look in the mirror and ask themselves if they should be fined £100 for every affected customer for every time they fail to deliver the service they sold a ticket for.