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technology, phone batteries and e-tickets discussion.

Peter Sarf

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mods note - split from this thread:

It has occurred to me that, morally, should staff have the means to access the ticket online themselves. My point is that if the TOC wants people to book online and have an eTicket then surely the TOC should have the means to check the ticket exists without having to rely on the passengers mobile phone. It is a contract between the TOC and the passenger so it is also the TOCs data.
 
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Fawkes Cat

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It has occurred to me that, morally, should staff have the means to access the ticket online themselves. My point is that if the TOC wants people to book online and have an eTicket then surely the TOC should have the means to check the ticket exists without having to rely on the passengers mobile phone. It is a contract between the TOC and the passenger so it is also the TOCs data.
How does this logic apply to paper tickets? If we reword your statement to account for the differences between eticket and paper, to give

My point is that if the TOC wants people to book online through the ticket office and have an eTicket a paper ticket then surely the TOC should have the means to check the ticket exists without having to rely on the passengers mobile phone passenger getting the ticket out of their pocket . It is a contract between the TOC and the passenger so it is also the TOCs data.
The surely we all agree that it would be absurd. And if it is absurd to expect the railway to somehow know what is in the passenger's pocket, then surely it is equally absurd to expect them to know what is on the passenger's phone?


(Apologies to all: I seem to have appointed myself logic monitor for the day)
 

Peter Sarf

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How does this logic apply to paper tickets? If we reword your statement to account for the differences between eticket and paper, to give


The surely we all agree that it would be absurd. And if it is absurd to expect the railway to somehow know what is in the passenger's pocket, then surely it is equally absurd to expect them to know what is on the passenger's phone?


(Apologies to all: I seem to have appointed myself logic monitor for the day)
I don't disagree that what I am saying does not have a parallel with paper tickets. Perhaps it should apply if the information is available electronically and certainly some of it must be, for example the reservation.

It just seems that staff having the same access would be helpful and more friendly in cases like this.

NB - Mods should this be in a separate thread ?. Feel free.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I don't disagree that what I am saying does not have a parallel with paper tickets. Perhaps it should apply if the information is available electronically and certainly some of it must be, for example the reservation.

It just seems that staff having the same access would be helpful and more friendly in cases like this.

NB - Mods should this be in a separate thread ?. Feel free.
The information that the railway does not have is who has a ticket. That's the bit that needs demonstrating by the passenger producing the ticket. And this is regardless of the medium for the ticket.
 

Bletchleyite

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It has occurred to me that, morally, should staff have the means to access the ticket online themselves. My point is that if the TOC wants people to book online and have an eTicket then surely the TOC should have the means to check the ticket exists without having to rely on the passengers mobile phone. It is a contract between the TOC and the passenger so it is also the TOCs data.

That's just technology and signal limitations, but it should be easily possible within 10 years or so and probably would be now in many urban areas.
 

Sultan

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No. 10 years ago people on here were doubting that my proposal for a system of e-tickets (which was almost identical to the one that was actually implemented) was ever going to happen!
Ah, but did you foresee that phone batteries couldn't keep pace and you need to carry a brick (of battery packs) on longer journeys?
 

Bletchleyite

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Ah, but did you foresee that phone batteries couldn't keep pace and you need to carry a brick (of battery packs) on longer journeys?

My very first smartphone had a battery pack, albeit one you put onto the phone to make it thicker rather than a separate one. So yes, and I didn't consider it an issue then nor do I consider it one now.
 

SteveM70

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Ah, but did you foresee that phone batteries couldn't keep pace some people these days can't go two minutes without messing with their phone and you need to carry a brick (of battery packs) on longer journeys?

Fixed that for you
 

Somewhere

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Would it be logical to say the only part of the Penalty Fare due is the £100, as the rest has already been paid for with the ticket that was unable to be produced?
Is there a central database of Penalty Fares issued? Because season ticket holders get one free go a year of leaving their ticket at home, so couldn't be acceptable for anyone to get a free go too if their data is held on a database?
 

Bletchleyite

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Would it be logical to say the only part of the Penalty Fare due is the £100, as the rest has already been paid for with the ticket that was unable to be produced?
Is there a central database of Penalty Fares issued? Because season ticket holders get one free go a year of leaving their ticket at home, so couldn't be acceptable for anyone to get a free go too if their data is held on a database?

The problem with singles and returns is that they're not personal, anyone can use them, and they might be lucky enough to avoid a scan. Railcards and seasons are personal to an individual.

I've proposed before (though I couldn't find the thread when I last looked) that there should be an option for tickets to be named if you want which would allow for this, but unless/until that was taken it's not possible to guarantee you had the ticket on the day if you can't produce it when asked.

Edit: found the old thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rtunities-and-challenges.251175/#post-6303370
 
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m0ffy

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Surely when issuing tickets in a format relying on various bits of tech working correctly, the railway should acknowledge that things can go wrong? A fairer system would be to withdraw a penalty fare invoice on presentation of a valid e-ticket within 30 (for example) days.
 

Bletchleyite

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Surely when issuing tickets in a format relying on various bits of tech working correctly, the railway should acknowledge that things can go wrong? A fairer system would be to withdraw a penalty fare invoice on presentation of a valid e-ticket within 30 (for example) days.

That'd be workable if tickets were named. I do think it should be an option for them to be so, because I only ever buy tickets for me and this feature would be quite useful.
 

Bantamzen

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Ah, but did you foresee that phone batteries couldn't keep pace and you need to carry a brick (of battery packs) on longer journeys?
(Mods I'm assuming that the sort out has been done prior to this post, apologies if not!)

You don't need a brick as a battery back up, versions of power packs exist that are not much bigger than a cigarette lighter and carry enough storage for a full recharge of a modern smartphone. Plus many phones have much more capacity these days, my Sony Xperia 1 IV easily lasts a full day and more even with quite a lot if use. The whole "what about the battery" argument has largely been shown not to be an issue by the sheer number of people using e-tickets on mobiles.
 

stuu

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I've had mobile phones for coming up to 30 years, probably around 30 different phones including work ones, and I have never, ever had one run out of battery unexpectedly. If you have an e-ticket, and your battery is low, leave it alone and it won't run out. Most phones these days have a power saving option and can eke out the last ~10% of battery for longer than any train journey that people take without a power source. And the phone suggests that, it's not something you need any technical ability to switch on

Of course there is the outside possibility of something failing unexpectedly, but that must be vanishingly rare. Chargers are on sale at a lot of stations too, certainly for less than the price of a penalty fare. So I really don't think it's a problem the railway has to find a solution for.
 

Islineclear3_1

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I wonder if, with the increasing availability of being able to charge your mobile on a train, such excuses of "my phone died" will no longer wash. The railway have provided the facilities but it's not their responsibility if you choose not to use them
 

Sultan

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What "brick"?
My battery packs are 2cm x 2cm x 9.5cm!
It's a figure of speech! They are larger than the phone. But even they still need to be kept charged.

I've had mobile phones for coming up to 30 years, probably around 30 different phones including work ones, and I have never, ever had one run out of battery unexpectedly. If you have an e-ticket, and your battery is low, leave it alone and it won't run out. Most phones these days have a power saving option and can eke out the last ~10% of battery for longer than any train journey that people take without a power source. And the phone suggests that, it's not something you need any technical ability to switch on

Of course there is the outside possibility of something failing unexpectedly, but that must be vanishingly rare. Chargers are on sale at a lot of stations too, certainly for less than the price of a penalty fare. So I really don't think it's a problem the railway has to find a solution for.
Me neither. I always use 'Low Power mode' even when I have more than 100%. The battery lasts so much longer.
 

mike57

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I wonder if, with the increasing availability of being able to charge your mobile on a train, such excuses of "my phone died" will no longer wash. The railway have provided the facilities but it's not their responsibility if you choose not to use them
If I am going to be out all day on public transport I also keep my phone charged up, instead of waiting for 25% and then finding that the chargers on the service I am on are not working (even a lot of buses have usb charge ports). I have a small battery as well which is about 4 x 2 x 3/4 in and will give me a good boost charge if needed. This is small enough to go in my pocket or bag with my charging lead.

If you cant manage these basic steps to ensure your phone works then to be honest you deserve the penalty fare.
 

D365

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Fixed that for you
Batteries are a consumable. They degrade with or without use.

It is a shame that stations do not provide a facility to print paper duplicates of etickets.
 

Peter Sarf

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Batteries are a consumable. They degrade with or without use.

It is a shame that stations do not provide a facility to print paper duplicates of etickets.
+
Really? From close to or fully charged to zero in less than a day without significant use?
Indeed. I have had phones where the battery life has got quite short. It seems to shrink rapidly towards the end. Not so easy these days to replace the battery and indeed iPhone updates change the software on older phones to increase the rate of battery discharge.

For separate battery packs. I find they o deteriorate over time, even if I am not using them much. Perhaps it is the lack of use. I usually take out up to three but seldom use up one. Always top them up before a major trip (camping).

Furthermore cold weather does reduce the capacity of Lithium Ion batteries. So a mobile battery showing 50% whllst indoors can drop to 5-10% in the cold (for example a railway platform in winter).

I don't use the battery heavily as I stay of social media when out. But a burst of research when transport goes wrong can dramatically reduce the charge level (and my remaining data).
 
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stuu

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Furthermore cold weather does reduce the capacity of Lithium Ion batteries. So a mobile battery showing 50% whllst indoors can drop to 5-10% in the cold (for example a railway platform in winter).
Seriously? Perhaps in Yakutsk. Unlikely in Croydon
 

gallafent

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Not so easy these days to replace the battery and indeed iPhone updates change the software on older phones to increase the rate of battery discharge.
Pretty easy in my (iPhone) experience, just book an appointment and they'll change it for between £65 and £95, depending on model. Took about half an hour the last time I did it. And the second part of your statement isn't true (there have been bugs causing battery drain which came with some updates, but those are usually fixed quite quickly ...).

https://blog.solidsignal.com/tutorials/do-ios-updates-really-kill-battery-life/

It’s one of the most persistent urban legends of the last ten years. It’s the idea that when you get an operating system update on your iPhone, it’s going to kill your battery life. This myth is usually paired with a claim that a particular OS upgrade slowed down your phone in order to get you to buy a new one.

The fact is…​

The fact is that there’s no long-term data to suggest that there’s a negative effect on battery life when there’s an iPhone update. If you figure about 6 updates a year since 2007, that’s 90 OS updates give or take. If there were a long-term pattern of iOS updates killing batteries we would know about it by now. Occasionally there is an update that does have an effect, like the recent iOS 15.4, but it’s usually limited to a few models and a patch generally comes out within a week.
There is plenty of data to say that the first couple of days after an update can be hard on the battery, and there are a couple of good reasons why.

Reason 1: App updates​

When there’s an OS update, apps are tested by their makers to make sure they work perfectly. If they don’t, an update is issued. Installing that update takes more battery than just letting the phone sit still. You won’t notice one or two updates, but after a recent iOS/iPadOS update I noticed 47 apps with updates. That alone was enough to kill 15% of my battery while the updates took place. Once that bunch of updates was done, though, I only saw about 3 a day on average and that didn’t seem to be a big deal

Reason 2: OS behind the scenes stuff​

When you get a new operating system on your phone, the focus is on getting you up and running as quickly as possible. Yes, the average phone update keeps you offline for about half an hour. But, it can take hours to do everything that needs to be done. In some cases it can take up to two days for the entire update to complete, along with file checks, reorganizations, new logs, and all that behind-the-scenes stuff. All that work takes battery power. Most people who have observed excess battery drain right after an update have noticed that it gets better after 3-5 days.

Reason 3: You’re just noticing it​

Of course you’re going to use your phone more after an OS update, especially if there’s something new to look at. That means more screen time which uses battery. You’re also more likely to notice battery drain that you didn’t notice before. All batteries degrade over time, and phone batteries are the worst. Without heat management, they fail after 3-4 years. You might just be noticing poor battery life that you didn’t notice before.

The myth of slow phones after an update​

This one’s actually real, it’s been documented, and it’s no surprise. Depending on what’s in the update, it could slow your phone down. After all, if you have a new feature, it takes computing power. This is hardly unique, and it happens to practically every computing device. It’s why Apple only certifies its OS upgrades for newer phones. Older phones may not have the memory to update, and they may just give you a bad experience.
It’s not a plot to get you to replace the phone. Apple has no problem selling iPhones based on new features. They don’t need to intentionally cripple old ones. It’s just that every time you add new features, it slows things down. Nothing sinister about that.

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Bletchleyite

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And most people keep their battery in a pocket - unlikely to be very cold.


Not much good for anyone. Low Power mode (on an iphone) stops background activity only.

It's a sensible emergency option once you get below 5%, it'll happily sit at that for hours so your ticket is still usable. Even playing downloaded music has little impact.
 

Richardr

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I wonder if, with the increasing availability of being able to charge your mobile on a train, such excuses of "my phone died" will no longer wash. The railway have provided the facilities but it's not their responsibility if you choose not to use them
It relies on carrying the appropriate lead.
 

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