Temporary Timetable 13th Dec - 7th Jan

[43066]

There are ways it could be introduced over a period without anyone being made redundant, given that there are places where you'd want OBS type roles and given that the railway is heavily understaffed anyway in terms of too much running on overtime.

But it’s pretty clear no guarantees along these lines are being given. The money is clearly there to make an offer that would be acceptable to the unions, the government now appears to be prolonging the dispute for political reasons.

. Eventually land on a better wage, having taken a cut through training and a period of mostly night work trundling around a station/depot at walking pace. Say goodbye, largely, to the genuine pleasure of interacting with the public and sorting out their problems which I relish.

Yes, not a great position. If it were me I would try and avoid depot driving entirely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it’s pretty clear no guarantees along these lines are being given. The money is clearly there to make an offer that would be acceptable to the unions, the government now appears to be prolonging the dispute for political reasons.

Yes, and I think this was an incredibly stupid move, regardless of the desire for DOO. That bridge can be crossed later (or not).

Doesn't make it anymore satisfactory. I enjoy being a guard. It's a nice mix of challenges with some operational duties and managing people. Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, I'm excellent at both elements and my service record reflects that. I have no real concerns at ending up without a job in the end, but I do worry about paying my mortgage and my own satisfaction with my existence.

And I do empathise with this, if you've found your dream job then it's hard to contemplate it changing significantly. But employment exists because the job needs to be done, and the world moves (or may move*) on. I don't doubt that there were steam firemen who loved their job and never wanted to do anything else. Or signallers in remote boxes, or stationmasters at rural stations, or bus conductors, or.....

* I agree nothing would be gained on a debate on the actual merits and otherwise of DOO; it's been done to death.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure that there's any great benefit to DOO, particularly if you've conceded that a second person is needed on the train generally. Certainly what benefits might be there are far outweighed by driving the railway off of a cliff to achieve it.

In the context of this dispute, it seems to be more of a government fetish and in no way worth holding up a settlement for.

 

[Starmill]

I know you think the government are doing this because they are evil, but do you think the Treasury would let them leave money on the table?

Yes. Definitely. They are little interested in revenue and very interested in gross costs. In fact, I'm certain that is their view, because the industry has been attempting to lobby the government to let them spend a little more in order to earn more.



HMT are, of course, not buying it. Nor was there a realistic hope they would do. PS I never claimed they were 'evil'... I've actually tried to point out several times that most people in the industry would actually get further if they attempted to understand it from HMT's perspective, but of course nobody will ever change their mind.

First trains at 0800 has been very problematic at some locations with overcrowding for the first trains. 0900 might be better or worse depending on how many people still bother to travel.

Problematic for whom? The TOCs have been charging season ticket holders full price while pocketing the savings by not running before 0900. Sounds absolutely fine from their perspective?

 

[Class 466]

Is this why I can't find any daytime trains to Royston on 23 December?

TLGN services haven't been uploaded for that date yet regardless of Strike Action.

 

[Starmill]

Because if first trains are around 0900, then they might as well run nothing.

Correct. I expect most affected TOCs to issue the common refrain "do not travel" all day. When this advice is given people do tend to just follow it...

 

[Jurg]

I'm not sure that there's any great benefit to DOO, particularly if you've conceded that a second person is needed on the train generally. Certainly what benefits might be there are far outweighed by driving the railway off of a cliff to achieve it.

In the context of this dispute, it seems to be more of a government fetish and in no way worth holding up a settlement for.

Quite. It's almost as if the ruling party want the unions to reject the offer, in order to justify bringing in more draconian anti-union laws to benefit their donors. Almost.

If anyone thinks this is just about the railways, or just about public service workers, they need to think again.

 

[Starmill]

Still no news of the emergency timetable on the mainstream media. When will they cotton on .....

I note you're still trying to suggest this is the fault of journalists. Perhaps you can point me towards the press releases or media quotes from RDG and DfT? Of course, there are none...

 

[yorksrob]

The treasury is an institution that is also due reform.

I note you're still trying to suggest this is the fault of journalists. Perhaps you can point me towards the press releases or media quotes from RDG and DfT? Of course, there are none...

The profession of journalist is supposed to entail more than sitting around on your arse waiting for a press release.

This is very much a public interest matter and journalists should be probing for a scoop.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I suppose the nuclear option is 3, leave - but then do what? I'm doing what I always wanted to do.

I spent my entire working career on the railway, doing something that essentially I enjoyed, after a few early years in the signalling grade, which in itself taught me a wealth of detail about the wider industry. But a combination of youth - being sixteen and already on shift work - I eventually realised I had a need to keep the grey cells continually active, which by the time I was eighteen and a grade B bobby, and having periods of inactivity wasn't working for me, so events eventually led me in to planning, where working out solutions to various timetabling, stock and crew diagramming problems kept one busy.
But by the time I took early retirement, the industry had changed out of all recognition, and there were (IMO) far too many people of a high level grade, who were more interested in ticking their own career climbing boxes, than in the actual (detail of the) job at hand. This often led to completely unrealistic/unworkable requests being hoist upon the planners, often at times when they were fully employed in other major work streams (I think Bald Rick in particular will understand from whence I come by all accounts), and in my case I had two options. One, take early retirement, or two, end up in a white coat. Whilst my decision to quit was for a number of reasons, the potential risk to my longer term health was the trigger that saw me leave - I am only thankful to this day, that I saw some of the early signs.

Getting back to Low Level. Sometimes in life, circumstances outside of one's own control, can lead one to take a break, or take a completely different route (career wise), if one is still youthful enough. There are no easy answers, as everyone will know their own strengths etc. Just as an aside, I do know of a former commercial guard who worked at a depot on my old patch, a few miles from me, but left early by all accounts. He still deals with railway matters, but on a much smaller 'scale' if you get my drift. Each to one's own is the key, but sometimes a complete change can do one some good, especially after many years in the same general environment.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, and I think this was an incredibly stupid move, regardless of the desire for DOO. That bridge can be crossed later (or not).

Given the govt are now well invested in their position and the need for the industry to close the financial gap they might as well dig in although to expect to kitchen sink a vast proportion of the workforce in one go was widely unrealistic. The way forward is for RMT to make a counter proposal about how they see the way forward on cost base in exchange for pay rises as they won't fully prevent what is needed and potentially only worsen the situation. Labour aren't going to be any salvation either as they will prioritise the NHS and education first.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The thing about change is that it is a lot easier if it is ones own idea. To have change imposed on one is not so pleasant. It is always nice(er) if the looming change can be owned by those who are going to be impacted by the change. But at the end of the day change does happen for all sorts of reasons (good, bad or unnecessary).

I have a feeling that there is change a'plenty knocking on the railway's door, how much of it is necessary/possible is another thing.

 

[bramling]

I'm not sure that there's any great benefit to DOO, particularly if you've conceded that a second person is needed on the train generally. Certainly what benefits might be there are far outweighed by driving the railway off of a cliff to achieve it.

From a purely logistical point of view, there is a clear benefit if you can eliminate the need for a train to run with a second person, as - whether there’s someone rostered or not - if the second person is unavailable then the train can still run. This is particularly beneficial when you’re perennially short of people, as currently seems to be the case in some areas at least.

Naturally there are good counter arguments in terms of safety, and in terms of providing a service to the end-user.

There is no right or wrong answer as to which of these factors is more important, though as alluded to before there certainly have been some incidents where lack of a guard has caused the driver to essentially lose control of a situation (Kentish Town, Lewisham, Peckham Rye).

I’m not entirely sure why the government wishes to stir this one up now, however. There remain plenty of trains in service which aren’t suitable for DOO, the Sprinter fleet for one, as well as plenty of routes where the infrastructure simply isn’t suitable. Seems like it’s been raised as the government simply wants to chuck as much petrol on the fire as they can. Responsible government, eh?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I have a feeling that there is change a'plenty knocking on the railway's door,

I too get that gut feeling.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Any word yet from the RMT on the Network Rail offer? I feel like I'm waiting for the smoke to come out of the Vatican chimney....
(I'm assuming white for acceptance, black for rejection. Or should other colours be used? )

 

[YorkshireBear]

Any word yet from the RMT on the Network Rail offer? I feel like I'm waiting for the smoke to come out of the Vatican chimney....
(I'm assuming white for acceptance, black for rejection. Or should other colours be used? )

This is the key to the shutdown. If the NR offer is accepted then railway can be open even if the TOCs stay in dispute. Which at least means Christmas work can go ahead!

 

[Starmill]

The profession of journalist is supposed to entail more than sitting around on your arse waiting for a press release.

This is very much a public interest matter and journalists should be probing for a scoop.

It is a matter of public interest, but journalists will chase the stories which get the most attention, of which frankly this is not really one. Rail strikes are just one of many forms of industrial action which are currently in the news, and there are already lots of articles about this action. There is simply no scoop to be had here. Most readers will already know there's disruption coming if they're affected, and among those readers not affected more articles will make absolutely no difference.

I know that you personally think that this is going to be a much bigger deal, but unfortunately, most journalists have a clearer idea than you do about what their readership wants to read. It seems really rather unfair therefore for you to criticise a whole profession as "sitting on their backside", just because you're so annoyed at how this will disrupt your personal life and plans.

I sympathise with your unhappiness but please blame the actual parties involved, namely Ministers, Network Rail, TOCs and RDG, the Union executives, and the Members.

Labour aren't going to be any salvation either as they will prioritise the NHS and education first.

Not as if they can be blamed though for that - they will prioritise improvements in what the general public are most interested in. Currently this is health, police and education before any kind of transport.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Seems like it’s been raised as the government simply wants to chuck as much petrol on the fire as they can. Responsible government, eh?

I've said it before on a number of occasions, but this government is a pub covers band version of Thatcherism desperate for its Scargill moment.

It's quite pathetic really, playing politics instead of actually running the country properly.

Clearly the DOO/DCO thing is being thrown in to a) provoke the RMT and b) break the relationship between the RMT and ASLEF. The next step will be offering ASLEF members a big fat pay rise but only the proviso that they accept DCO/DOO being added into their contracts.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m not entirely sure why the government wishes to stir this one up now, however. There remain plenty of trains in service which aren’t suitable for DOO, the Sprinter fleet for one, as well as plenty of routes where the infrastructure simply isn’t suitable. Seems like it’s been raised as the government simply wants to chuck as much petrol on the fire as they can. Responsible government, eh?

Indeed, it's all fairly academic on the rural Northern network.

 

[ainsworth74]

Okay I think we're getting a bit away from the point of this thread. It's about the temporary timetable that may or may not be coming down the line for introduction shortly. Not the wider dispute and deals/insults (delete as appropriate) that have been put on the table over the weekend. So I would ask that we leave it there for the wider dispute discussion thank you

 

[yorksrob]

It is a matter of public interest, but journalists will chase the stories which get the most attention, of which frankly this is not really one. Rail strikes are just one of many forms of industrial action which are currently in the news, and there are already lots of articles about this action. There is simply no scoop to be had here. Most readers will already know there's disruption coming if they're affected, and among those readers not affected more articles will make absolutely no difference.

I know that you personally think that this is going to be a much bigger deal, but unfortunately, most journalists have a clearer idea than you do about what their readership wants to read. It seems really rather unfair therefore for you to criticise a whole profession as "sitting on their backside", just because you're so annoyed at how this will disrupt your personal life and plans.

I sympathise with your unhappiness but please blame the actual parties involved, namely Ministers, Network Rail, TOCs and RDG, the Union executives, and the Members.


Not as if they can be blamed though for that - they will prioritise improvements in what the general public are most interested in. Currently this is health, police and education before any kind of transport.

On the contrary, the mainstream media has been picking up on the more traditional strikes as they've shown up on tv news, talk shows, newspapers etc.

In this context, not having an evening service between mid december and mid january would seem a very big deal indeed, and I can only assume that the reason it's not being reported is that no one's noticed yet.

 

[bramling]

Not as if they can be blamed though for that - they will prioritise improvements in what the general public are most interested in. Currently this is health, police and education before any kind of transport.

That might soon change if people can’t move about freely, or if the above services are impacted because staff or users can’t access them.

In my view it’s pretty negligent of the government to overlook transport, though of course transport isn’t the only sector currently having IR issues.

 

[Starmill]

On the contrary, the mainstream media has been picking up on the more traditional strikes as they've shown up on tv news, talk shows, newspapers etc.

In this context, not having an evening service between mid december and mid january would seem a very big deal indeed, and I can only assume that the reason it's not being reported is that no one's noticed yet.

Noticed what? Some anonymous posts on an online forum, whose authors give scant details, and when pressed with questions don't respond?

 

[Mathew S]

Did the media report any of the other details or just the 4$ rise and no compulsory redundancy ?

I'd venture to suggest that most of the media don't understand there is anything more on the table for discussion than pay & redundancies/modernisation; the RMT haven't done a very good job of communicating the dispute in simple enough terms (think, "Can I explain it in a news bulletin, in 10 seconds or less?").

In this context, not having an evening service between mid december and mid january would seem a very big deal indeed, and I can only assume that the reason it's not being reported is that no one's noticed yet.

Realistically - not least because the broadcast media have to cover both sides of this dispute fairly and the TOCs/DfT aren't talking about it - nothing's going to be said until a revised timetable's published, if it is.

 

[43066]

the RMT haven't done a very good job of communicating the dispute in simple enough terms (think, "Can I explain it in a news bulletin, in 10 seconds or less?").

It’s actually really difficult to do that, at least in a way people outside the industry will understand, which is part of the problem.

 

[Mathew S]

It’s actually really difficult to do that, at least in a way people outside the industry will understand, which is part of the problem.

Oh, I absolutely agree; until recently it used to be my job (not for the RMT thankfully!!) and it's flipping hard work. Also, pretty impossible to compete against the inevitable, "Train strikes ruin cute childrens' Christmas," headline. If, of course, that's what happens.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ahem...

Okay I think we're getting a bit away from the point of this thread. It's about the temporary timetable that may or may not be coming down the line for introduction shortly. Not the wider dispute and deals/insults (delete as appropriate) that have been put on the table over the weekend. So I would ask that we leave it there for the wider dispute discussion thank you

 

[Jan Mayen]

Would anyone care to suggest what might happen on the Brighton Main Line if the RMT Network Rail overtime ban goes ahead? I'm hoping that it might not be as bad as only open 0600 to 1800. I need to plan for evening shifts etc.
Many thanks

 

[yorksrob]

Realistically - not least because the broadcast media have to cover both sides of this dispute fairly and the TOCs/DfT aren't talking about it - nothing's going to be said until a revised timetable's published, if it is.

Noticed what? Some anonymous posts on an online forum, whose authors give scant details, and when pressed with questions don't respond?

Or put it another way, we're just a couple of chaps on an internet forum.

Surely the point of investigative journalism is to be able to take scant rumours and press their contacts for more information.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Or put it another way, we're just a couple of chaps on an internet forum.

Surely the point of investigative journalism is to be able to take scant rumours and press their contacts for more information.

I would like a journalist to send an email to their Network Rail contact and ask if there is any truth behind these twelve pages of forum postings.
Said contact then replies:
a. No comment
b, yes
C, no
If it's c, just spike it and move on to something else.
If it's a or b, it's a story. Possibly.
Anyone know any journalists?