Temporary transfer of Turbostars from Chiltern to West Midlands Trains

[newtownmgr]

They aren’t going back. Chiltern don’t want them & they are off lease with Chiltern from the 31st December.

Leamington depot is not learning 196’s. Only Shrewsbury,Wolverhampton & Worcester with the slim possibility of the top link at New St if they retain the 2 Shrewsbury jobs they have!

 

[172007]

How is getting a fleet of new 196's saving money though? The 172's are perfect for WMT so why replace them at all?

The 196's are replacing the 170's and already departed 15X's. Some 170's have already gone to East Midlands so 172's are being used on a number of Hereford New St diagrams. Once the 196's started revenue service the 172's on the Hereford services will not be required therefore in the current low commuting climate leasing 4 X 172/1 would seem a complete waste of money.

 

[Sprinter107]

The 196's are replacing the 170's and already departed 15X's. Some 170's have already gone to East Midlands so 172's are being used on a number of Hereford New St diagrams. Once the 196's started revenue service the 172's on the Hereford services will not be required therefore in the current low commuting climate leasing 4 X 172/1 would seem a complete waste of money.

Those 172s are needed. Many Snow Hill line trains during the peaks and also certain off peak trains are full and standing. At least 4 times last week I left passengers behined.

 

[43102EMR]

Those 172s are needed. Many Snow Hill line trains during the peaks and also certain off peak trains are full and standing. At least 4 times last week I left passengers behined.

Having used the Snow Hill Lines for a good number of years, I 100% agree - also reduces the need for 196s to be used on the route to fully concentrate them on Shrewsbury and Hereford runs

 

[Stephen Lee]

The 196's are replacing the 170's and already departed 15X's. Some 170's have already gone to East Midlands so 172's are being used on a number of Hereford New St diagrams. Once the 196's started revenue service the 172's on the Hereford services will not be required therefore in the current low commuting climate leasing 4 X 172/1 would seem a complete waste of money.

Agree, PS when i think the 153s will leave WMR when the 172/0s arrived, but it turns out that the 153s are retained as a stop-gap for extra capacity in SHL/Hereford-Birmingham. And with the 172/1s arrived from Chiltern Railways and 196s in Revenue service, the 153s soon become surplus

Wouldn't it be prudent for a 6 month extension to the current assumed short term lease for the 172/1's. Get some 196's running then return these 172's to their owner. Start the ball rolling in saving money; same with a batch of 350's too.

Class 350/2s are going to be off-leased after 730/1-2s. However, there is a proposal of battery-electric conversion and according to the Strategy plan, a Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry-Leamington Spa and New through service from London Euston and Coventry to Trent Valley Stations are proposed, as I don’t think there are news about NUCKLE electrification is proposed so is it possible to deploy Battery 350/2s to those routes

 

[43102EMR]

Agree, PS when i think the 153s will leave WMR when the 172/0s arrived, but it turns out that the 153s are retained as a stop-gap for extra capacity in SHL/Hereford-Birmingham. And with the 172/1s arrived from Chiltern Railways and 196s in Revenue service, the 153s soon become surplus


Class 350/2s are going to be off-leased after 730/1-2s. However, there is a proposal of battery-electric conversion and according to the Strategy plan, a Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry-Leamington Spa and New through service from London Euston and Coventry to Trent Valley Stations are proposed, as I don’t think there are news about NUCKLE electrification is proposed so is it possible to deploy Battery 350/2s to those routes

The 153s have been off lease and stored for over a year now…

 

[Sprinter107]

Agree, PS when i think the 153s will leave WMR when the 172/0s arrived, but it turns out that the 153s are retained as a stop-gap for extra capacity in SHL/Hereford-Birmingham. And with the 172/1s arrived from Chiltern Railways and 196s in Revenue service, the 153s soon become surplus


Class 350/2s are going to be off-leased after 730/1-2s. However, there is a proposal of battery-electric conversion and according to the Strategy plan, a Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Coventry-Leamington Spa and New through service from London Euston and Coventry to Trent Valley Stations are proposed, as I don’t think there are news about NUCKLE electrification is proposed so is it possible to deploy Battery 350/2s to those routes

The WM 153s last carried a passenger in March 2020.

 

[172007]

Rationale for returning 172/1s to leasing company when 196's come into revenue earning service.

Looking at Traksy at 12:00 10/12/21

2 trains on Nuneaton to Coventey 2G79 2G78

11 trains on Snowhill line duties

4 trains on Herefords

2 on Shrewsbury's

Total 21 trains.

There will be in theory at end of 2022
39 172's
26 196's

6x4 car 196's coupled to 6x2 car so each train is 6 cars on all Hereford and Shrewsburys.

11 x 3 car 172 plus 11 x 2 car 172 makes all current Snowhill line services 5 car.

That leaves 4x3 car 172
1x2 car 172 / 2
8x2 car 172 / 0
4x2 car 172/ 1
To cover Coventry Nuneaton and Maintenance

8x4 car 196
6x2 car 196
To cover maintenance, 2 extra Shrewbury and what 2 trains going to King's Norton when the Camphill lines open.

These are yes only 4 trains an hour on Snow Hill services but will it ever go to 6.

There is plenty of scope to return 4x172/1's to the Leasing company and save the lease costs. If in 3 years time everyone is back in the office then come lease them again.

 

[Suraggu]

Rationale for returning 172/1s to leasing company when 196's come into revenue earning service.

Looking at Traksy at 12:00 10/12/21

2 trains on Nuneaton to Coventey 2G79 2G78

11 trains on Snowhill line duties

4 trains on Herefords

2 on Shrewsbury's

Total 21 trains.

There will be in theory at end of 2022
39 172's
26 196's

6x4 car 196's coupled to 6x2 car so each train is 6 cars on all Hereford and Shrewsburys.

11 x 3 car 172 plus 11 x 2 car 172 makes all current Snowhill line services 5 car.

That leaves 4x3 car 172
1x2 car 172 / 2
8x2 car 172 / 0
4x2 car 172/ 1
To cover Coventry Nuneaton and Maintenance

8x4 car 196
6x2 car 196
To cover maintenance, 2 extra Shrewbury and what 2 trains going to King's Norton when the Camphill lines open.

These are yes only 4 trains an hour on Snow Hill services but will it ever go to 6.

There is plenty of scope to return 4x172/1's to the Leasing company and save the lease costs. If in 3 years time everyone is back in the office then come lease them again.

Have you accounted for the number of Class 196s being subleased to EWR as well?

 

[172007]

Have you accounted for the number of Class 196s being subleased to EWR as well?

That is speculation and rumour as far as I am aware.

 

[ABB125]

That is speculation and rumour as far as I am aware.

It was certainly "the plan" at the time, but plans can (and do) change. Who knows!

 

[Suraggu]

That is speculation and rumour as far as I am aware.

It isn't speculation and rumour though. They delivered that to stakeholders in a briefing a number of weeks ago.

That's what EWR are having subleased to them (as of November 2021) until they recieve a dedicated fleet. It will only be a short term sublease but a removal of units which means the continued requirement of the ex CR 172's.

 

[172007]

It isn't speculation and rumour though. They delivered that to stakeholders in a briefing a number of weeks ago.

That's what EWR are having subleased to them (as of November 2021) until they recieve a dedicated fleet. It will only be a short term sublease but a removal of units which means the continued requirement of the ex CR 172's.

Can't see any press releases on a Google search or eastwestrail.co.uk either.

 

[Sprinter107]

Rationale for returning 172/1s to leasing company when 196's come into revenue earning service.

Looking at Traksy at 12:00 10/12/21

2 trains on Nuneaton to Coventey 2G79 2G78

11 trains on Snowhill line duties

4 trains on Herefords

2 on Shrewsbury's

Total 21 trains.

There will be in theory at end of 2022
39 172's
26 196's

6x4 car 196's coupled to 6x2 car so each train is 6 cars on all Hereford and Shrewsburys.

11 x 3 car 172 plus 11 x 2 car 172 makes all current Snowhill line services 5 car.

That leaves 4x3 car 172
1x2 car 172 / 2
8x2 car 172 / 0
4x2 car 172/ 1
To cover Coventry Nuneaton and Maintenance

8x4 car 196
6x2 car 196
To cover maintenance, 2 extra Shrewbury and what 2 trains going to King's Norton when the Camphill lines open.

These are yes only 4 trains an hour on Snow Hill services but will it ever go to 6.

There is plenty of scope to return 4x172/1's to the Leasing company and save the lease costs. If in 3 years time everyone is back in the office then come lease them again.

Looks,good on paper doesn't it.

 

[fgwrich]

There is plenty of scope to return 4x172/1's to the Leasing company and save the lease costs. If in 3 years time everyone is back in the office then come lease them again.

And what is Angel Trains supposed to do with a small subfleet of 4 Class 172s until WMT needs them again? Because they aren't going to want to leave them in store until then, and they aren't going to want to lease them out on very short term contracts until WMT wants them back either. Once they're gone, they're gone. Keeping them at Tyseley with their other Class 172 fleet makes a lot more sense, both from a maintenance and parts point of view.

 

[Sprinter107]

And what is Angel Trains supposed to do with a small subfleet of 4 Class 172s until WMT needs them again? Because they aren't going to want to leave them in store until then, and they aren't going to want to lease them out on very short term contracts until WMT wants them back either. Once they're gone, they're gone. Keeping them at Tyseley with their other Class 172 fleet makes a lot more sense, both from a maintenance and parts point of view.

Absolutely it does. And im sure the accountants at WM know exactly what they are doing. I'm sure that if they thought they could send units off lease they would. We need those 172s, and im quite sure the weary fed up passengers on the Snow Hill lines would agree.

 

[172007]

Looks,good on paper doesn't it.

Absolutely it does. And im sure the accountants at WM know exactly what they are doing. I'm sure that if they thought they could send units off lease they would. We need those 172s, and im quite sure the weary fed up passengers on the Snow Hill lines would agree.

We don't need them after the 196's omtroduced at some point next year. As soon as 4x 196's are working then the 172/1's are unnecessary.

Leasing companies take the risk that at some point leases won't be renewed, they are in the gambling businesses and are fully aware that they could end up in this situation. It's called business. The bosses of a leasing company wouldn't think twice of cutting jobs in their organisations if reuqir3d to save money so why would they really blink twoce a 4 trains (or more of you look at Class 350's) are returned as surpluss to requirement.

 

[43102EMR]

Can't see any press releases on a Google search or eastwestrail.co.uk either.

It was confirmed in a government statement regarding East West Rail - can’t remember exactly where but it’s likely on the ORR’s website

 

[O L Leigh]

We don't need them after the 196's omtroduced at some point next year. As soon as 4x 196's are working then the 172/1's are unnecessary.

Remind me. How many of EMR’s Cl170s are WMT currently using…?

 

[Sprinter107]

We don't need them after the 196's omtroduced at some point next year. As soon as 4x 196's are working then the 172/1's are unnecessary.

Leasing companies take the risk that at some point leases won't be renewed, they are in the gambling businesses and are fully aware that they could end up in this situation. It's called business. The bosses of a leasing company wouldn't think twice of cutting jobs in their organisations if reuqir3d to save money so why would they really blink twoce a 4 trains (or more of you look at Class 350's) are returned as surpluss to requirement.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I think we do.

 

[centraltrains]

These are yes only 4 trains an hour on Snow Hill services but will it ever go to 6.

I emailed TfWM about it and they said it's staffing levels should allow restoration towards the end of next year, but may be financial reasons depending on rail usage. The 20-40 minute split on Dorridge/Whitlock's branches is a pain to live with.
The Cross City reductions justification is more as to allow for Camp Hill services which SHL doesn't have?

Shrewsbury had just received a 2nd hourly train pre-pandemic too...

Originally one of the selling points, on franchise launch, of the 196s was to increase Snow Hill Line capacity. Would 8 additional 172 coaches have been the quota for this? To me this would have seemed small given the number of 3-car scheduled standing-squashed 172s out of Snow Hill in the evening peak.

 

[43102EMR]

Remind me. How many of EMR’s Cl170s are WMT currently using…?

16 I believe - 501, 502, 504-510, 512-514, 516-517, 533 and 535.

 

[Suraggu]

Can't see any press releases on a Google search or eastwestrail.co.uk either.

I must of been imagining it whilst sitting through that briefing then, taking notes and such.

 

[centraltrains]

I must of been imagining it whilst sitting through that briefing then, taking notes and such.

According to a forum poster, it was a magazine headline/article from the June 2021 edition of Modern Railways.

WMR Class 196 Build and Implementation

Wonder why Donnington was not chosen to store this one.

www.railforums.co.uk

Magazine available as a digital back issue if anyone wants a read: https://pocketmags.com/modern-railways-magazine/june-2021#popup1
Not purchased that issue myself, would like to know the magazines source - but don't want to buy, would anyone who has a copy know?

 

[Class172]

According to a forum poster, it was a magazine headline/article from the June 2021 edition of Modern Railways.

WMR Class 196 Build and Implementation

Wonder why Donnington was not chosen to store this one.

www.railforums.co.uk

Magazine available as a digital back issue if anyone wants a read: https://pocketmags.com/modern-railways-magazine/june-2021#popup1
Not purchased that issue myself, would like to know the magazines source - but don't want to buy, would anyone who has a copy know?

I have access to the issue and have just checked: no source is given, with the wording being “Modern Railways understands,” which would suggest to me the information may have come from an industry insider who wishes to remain anonymous in this situation.

(I’m currently not in a position where I can copy any of the text)

 

[Wyrleybart]

I have access to the issue and have just checked: no source is given, with the wording being “Modern Railways understands,” which would suggest to me the information may have come from an industry insider who wishes to remain anonymous in this situation.

(I’m currently not in a position where I can copy any of the text)

If I had to "take sides" in a dispute of validity of information, I would be taking Modern Railways everytime. The editorial team have a lot of industry support, which cannot be officially credited, but it is good enough for me. Pretty sure that was where I read the EWR class 196 info at the time.

 

[Liam L]

Anyone have any updates on the progress of 172103? Has it returned to Tyseley yet?

 

[Liam L]

172101/102/104 all on Tyseley today, 103 still in Doncaster I imagine?

 

[railphotoghw]

172101/102/104 all on Tyseley today, 103 still in Doncaster I imagine?

103 returned to Tyseley earlier in the month. Rumours are WMR are doing so more work on it at XTS before it goes into traffic though

 

[172007]

Been past Tysleye today. 101, 102, 103 all lined up on the depot line nearest the main lines. Are they awaiting 104 and off on mass off lease?