Testing multi ticket journey with delay before Advance

[MikeWh]

No trains London bound on Sidcup line due to points failure between Dartford and Crayford. Using Oyster to get to East Croydon for 1133 to Polegate on Advance. Not yet at London Bridge after circulating via Dartford. Disturbingly the disruption is not showing on NRE. Hope Southern staff are ok with this.
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Update: straight onto a FCC at London Bridge so no chance to speak to SE staff there.
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Fail at East Croydon. Explained story. Not our problem. You'll have to get a new ticket and claimback off Southeastern. Didn't even look at Oyster to verify journey. Bought new ticket because I couldn't afford to argue for hours.

Will be writing strong letter. Have name of clerk who refused to endorse ticket.

 

[island]

The SET website reported delays on the Sidcup line due a lineside fire.

Last I checked, there were some disputes over the validity of PAYG on Oyster combined with a paper advance for delays on the first leg, although it seems to be accepted that Travelcards are fine.

 

[clagmonster]

The advance ticket FAQs state:
"If the passenger is delayed and the train company or it's partners [are] at fault, which should be check by [staff] control office, change to a train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of the combination of rail tickets held. Examples are:
...
Combination of rail only tickets.

e.g. Rail season ticket Skipton-Leeds and Advance Leeds-Peterborough, or adjoining advance fares;

Combination of rail and partner tickets.

e.g. Brighton-Zone U12 plus advance London-Manchester, or;

e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket, plus advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull;

All Zones Travelcards, PTE-products (where rail is included) plus advance fares, etc;"
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=48377
While you don't meet any of the exact examples, you do fit the spirit and it was a rail company at fault for the delay.

I would send in a print of your journey history and preferbly some comfirmation of disuption from South Eastern. I'm not sure how much of this a booking office could provide.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks both. Yes, eventually a notice was put on NRE, but it took a while. The fire was at the points where the spur from Slade Green joins the loop line.

What annoyed me about East Croydon was that they point blank refused to accept that a delay to any previous trains meant they should pass me on a later one. I went to the booking office because they have full Oyster capabilities there so they could verify that I was at Crayford in time for the 1022 which would connect at London Bridge onto the FCC (1102 I think) with enough time to get the 1133 to Polegate at East Croydon.

I assume that industry systems will show all the cancelled trains on the loop line, or do I really need to get Southeastern to verify that first?

 

[laphroaig]

As an aside to this topic, looks like you're the man to ask MikeWh, when changing over from Oyster PAYG to a paper ticket at East Croydon are there any validators on the platforms, if so, roughly whereabouts? I'm travelling via Willesden Junction / Clapham Junction to Gatwick next week and the cheapest way seems to be to do this; buying the East Croydon - Gatwick ticket before travel then touching in at South Kenton, so I'm hoping I can jump out at Croydon, touch out and jump back on the same train, as time might be tight.

 

[Mike395]

As an aside to this topic, looks like you're the man to ask MikeWh, when changing over from Oyster PAYG to a paper ticket at East Croydon are there any validators on the platforms, if so, roughly whereabouts? I'm travelling via Willesden Junction / Clapham Junction to Gatwick next week and the cheapest way seems to be to do this; buying the East Croydon - Gatwick ticket before travel then touching in at South Kenton, so I'm hoping I can jump out at Croydon, touch out and jump back on the same train, as time might be tight.

No validators at East Croydon AFAIK, and theres a very long ramp to the gates, so your chances of managing it are virtually zero sadly

Gatwick services are at least every 15 minutes, however.

 

[laphroaig]

Thanks for the quick reply, yes I remember that ramp, I can move pretty quickly when I need to but not that quickly! I'll get ticket starting from Clapham and touch out there then if time might be an issue.

 

[MikeWh]

OK, if I can get this back on topic, I'm home now and have managed to look into things in a bit more detail without fear of the battery running out. First off, from the Advance Fares FAQs thread:

Q22. Can a passenger travel on any other service than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A. the following principles apply.

1) Start of the Journey. It is the passenger responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the departure of the first train. If they miss it due to parking problems, taxis not turning up, etc, they must buy a new ticket,

2) Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the train company or it's partners [are] at fault, which should be check by [staff] control office, change to a train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of the combination of rail tickets held. Examples are:

Included: are passsengers on valid:

Through domestic or international tickets. e.g. Brighton-Scarborough route TOC X & connections;

Through rail and partner tickets for which there is a through bus, tube, ferry or metro fare, e.g. Zone U12-Leeds, Wisbeach coach-York, Ryde Pier-Hull, etc;

Combination of rail only tickets.

e.g. Rail season ticket Skipton-Leeds and Advance Leeds-Peterborough, or adjoining advance fares;

Combination of rail and partner tickets.

e.g. Brighton-Zone U12 plus advance London-Manchester, or;

e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket, plus advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull;

All Zones Travelcards, PTE-products (where rail is included) plus advance fares, etc;

Combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK and then either advance tickets from London terminals or "London Intnl CIV" or Lndon Eurostar CIV;

Not included for the avoidance of doubt, are:

Non train company travel on separate tickets, e.g. tickets that begin on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets. (this includes "PlusBus", which is a local day-rover bus ticket not compatible with a medium/long distance advance single ticket, so are kept as separate tickets), or;

Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards (allowable where electronically checked, verified and advance ticket endorsed in travel centres).

Please note that there is no change to :

a) Any other rules e.g. trains stopping where tickets join together (NRCoC 19), nor;

b) The need to verify that a train has been delayed on route and ticket endorsed, nor;

c) Any other passenger entitlements as defined by the NRCoC or CIV conditions, nor;

d) General ATOC disruption guidance

e) [Staff] discretion in extreme circumstances.

....

I've boldened the important bit. I was seeking to get my advance ticket endorsed at a booking office within the Oyster area where there are facilities to check Oyster cards. Can anyone see a flaw in my argument that I was in the right?

Secondly, when I send off my letter to Southern, should I enclose the actual tickets (after taking copies), or send the copies at first. I'll be waiting until I can screenprint my journey history over the weekend.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I should wait for others to confirm that you are correct in your substantive point that your tickets should have been accepted, not having much local knowledge, but I cannot see any justification for refusal.

I assume that industry systems will show all the cancelled trains on the loop line, or do I really need to get Southeastern to verify that first?

If you had any evidence of delays, then yes, but it should not be necessary for you to provide that evidence at this stage - that there were delays will surely be a fact accepted by both you and the TOC. The disagreement concerns how your tickets were dealt with following those delays.

Secondly, when I send off my letter to Southern, should I enclose the actual tickets (after taking copies), or send the copies at first. I'll be waiting until I can screenprint my journey history over the weekend.

I suggest sending a good quality photocopy or scan and keeping the originals. If, later, they ask for them as a condition of making a settlement, then that would be the time to provide them.