xitz2012@gmail
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TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion
- Thread starter Leyland Bus
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BlitzFan87
On Moderation
the new electrics at Oldham are making good progress so far with the majority of the fleet to be functional by the end of this week
mayneway
Member
There was a fault with one of the banks of charging points at Oldham depot last night so they requested some of the 8 buses that had moved over to queens road hours earlier back to make service!
As most of that batch were already out in service at Queens road some others were sent up to help out. They should be returning to queens road in the earlier hours or tomorrow (Friday)!
36733 is a tracking error as it’s currently off with RTA damage. The ticket machine was most likely taken off it and fitted to one of the ex Oldham MMC’s which has then returned to Oldham to help out today.
Class 466
Established Member
This is an error caused by a tracking issue a few days ago where many vehicles lost months worth of tracking. I travelled on 37633 in June for example.
mayneway
Member
Yeah the damage was caused last week it was out in service before that.
xitz2012@gmail
Member
They are being given 8 Streetdecks by TfGM for Stockport.
The vehicle tracking as 37633 is actually 11521 (SK20AVW)
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MCRTransitYT
Member
Its interesting that stagecoach manchester/stockport have ordered new streetdecks as they don't usually get them
xitz2012@gmail
Member
They haven’t ordered them. They are being given 8 Streetdecks by TfGM for Stockport depot.
citybus2500
Member
They are not being "given" them. They were ordered by TfGM and an agreement is in place for Stagecoach to take them.
see message #1760
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47550
Member
Do you know if these are part of the 123 ordered by Tfgm that we assumed were all for Metroline, the additional order for 20 (see the Tfgm freedom of information response in post #1419) are an entirely new order ?
xitz2012@gmail
Member
In an interesting change of pace, Bolton depot routes 8/10 seem to be primarily operated by electrics today whereas the 36/37/471 seem to be using primarily Streetdecks! Does anybody know why this has happened?
Citibus
Member
Where did the extra buses Diamond use for the recent 132 enhancements come from? I suspect it was just enhanced utilisation of the existing fleet.
Electric buses don't like cold weather and battery life is reduced so less miles operated
jeffery9098
On Moderation
Those 94 ZEB would be what has been ordered from the 'franchise operators'.
Stagecoach Order: 59 Enviro400EV + 4 Enviro100EV + 12 BZL-Midi [Separate order from 170 BZL. Intended for Middleton]
Go-Ahead Order: 19 Streetdeck Electroliners
Now if you add them up together... It prints out 94 Electrics
Then you have ADL Enviro400CiTY order(s) which are two orders not 'one'
Stagecoach ordered 31 ADL E400CiTY, so they could use them in service as they don't belong to TfGM.
Then you have TfGM ordered 50 ADL E400CiTY that are sat in place at army place until 5th January
As for the 20 Streetdecks that were bought by 'one of the bus operators', now that's difficult to sort them. As, If Stagecoach got 8 streetdecks from TfGM from that 123 Order... They wouldn't have the fleet number in the factory but when it's a depot in GM... The same logic with Metroline didn't add fleet numbers until they were delivered to the place but this 20 streetdeck order is 'very' confusing...
The 31 E400Citys were ordered by TfGM, to make up for the fact that Stockport won't be electrified in time and so they'd novated the big BZL Stagecoach order.
They have only seen use at Tranche 2 depots, replacing existing TfGM assets, hence why they've made it into service.
They have only seen use at Tranche 2 depots, replacing existing TfGM assets, hence why they've made it into service.
Class 466
Established Member
No, they have no need to use them before then.
jeffery9098
On Moderation
They weren't ordered by TfGM...
If you actually considered reading the source rather "making up silly lies from your imagination" then you would understand, TfGM vehicles aren't allowed to enter service until the date that TfGM stated
Transport for Greater Manchester vehicle procurement for the Bee Network - a Freedom of Information request to Transport for Greater Manchester
Under the Freedom of Information Act, please can you send me the following information within 20 working days: Please supply a list of vehicles bought to operate the Bee Network. This should include the specification of each vehicle, how many were bought, where they were bought from, and how...
That's the link that has 'buses brought by TfGM and Successful Franchise Operator's + information regarding the bidding process between manufacturers who's won majority of euro 6 with Single Deckers, Double Deckers, Midibuses and [Minibuses]
It shows that TfGM ordered 247 Euro 6 buses for use in Tranche 3 and With Tranche 3 Operator's. The order consist of:
123 Streetdecks
32 E200MMC 9.7m
42 E200MMC 11.8m
50 Enviro400
which if you do the maths... 123 + 32 + 42 + 50 = 247
Now stagecoach ordered 31 Enviro400 which these orders were placed last year in November along with everything else. You can clearly see the differences with, Why did many CiTY's arrive to Stagecoach depots and why did many arrive to the army place.
Those 31 Enviro400CiTY are being used at Oldham to further push out the E400MMC away from Oldham to QR so that, they can slowly electrify QR which needs mass of diesel buses that don't require that much refuelling and maintenance further helping the construction to acceleration to be faster compared to them using unreliable vehicles that would 'clog up the depot' thus delaying the electrification process...
On top of that, TfGM vehicles are given to operators as part of contract but TfGM gives them an amount than reflects on the contracts they won e.g Metroline got whole 123 Streetdecks and Stagecoach only gained out of E200MMC... 4
Maybe if you considered reading the multiple sources that are out there, The information will further help your comment seem more reliable then fiction
Class 466
Established Member
Where’s the source for these Stagecoach ordered 31 Enviro 400Citys?They weren't ordered by TfGM...
If you actually considered reading the source rather "making up silly lies from your imagination" then you would understand, TfGM vehicles aren't allowed to enter service until the date that TfGM stated
Transport for Greater Manchester vehicle procurement for the Bee Network - a Freedom of Information request to Transport for Greater Manchester
Under the Freedom of Information Act, please can you send me the following information within 20 working days: Please supply a list of vehicles bought to operate the Bee Network. This should include the specification of each vehicle, how many were bought, where they were bought from, and how...www.whatdotheyknow.com
That's the link that has 'buses brought by TfGM and Successful Franchise Operator's + information regarding the bidding process between manufacturers who's won majority of euro 6 with Single Deckers, Double Deckers, Midibuses and [Minibuses]
It shows that TfGM ordered 247 Euro 6 buses for use in Tranche 3 and With Tranche 3 Operator's. The order consist of:
123 Streetdecks
32 E200MMC 9.7m
42 E200MMC 11.8m
50 Enviro400
which if you do the maths... 123 + 32 + 42 + 50 = 247
Now stagecoach ordered 31 Enviro400 which these orders were placed last year in November along with everything else. You can clearly see the differences with, Why did many CiTY's arrive to Stagecoach depots and why did many arrive to the army place.
Those 31 Enviro400CiTY are being used at Oldham to further push out the E400MMC away from Oldham to QR so that, they can slowly electrify QR which needs mass of diesel buses that don't require that much refuelling and maintenance further helping the construction to acceleration to be faster compared to them using unreliable vehicles that would 'clog up the depot' thus delaying the electrification process...
On top of that, TfGM vehicles are given to operators as part of contract but TfGM gives them an amount than reflects on the contracts they won e.g Metroline got whole 123 Streetdecks and Stagecoach only gained out of E200MMC... 4
Maybe if you considered reading the multiple sources that are out there, The information will further help your comment seem more reliable then fiction
There’s only 50 in Manchester (11881-11930) (the TfGM ordered ones) at the moment of which some are in use at Oldham/Middleton until January. Some were initially delivered to Hyde Road as there was a plan to put them straight into service in September out of Middleton/Queens Road that was shelved.
23 will go into service at Oldham/Middleton to which will displace classic Enviro 400s for Schools work from Middleton & Queens Road (with 11825-28 transferring from Oldham to the latter). Come January these City’s will be replaced by 24 plates currently in South Manchester.
Then all 50 will be in use at Stockport.
jeffery9098
On Moderation
it's all listed in the link I've just sent....
if you don't want to open the link then it's up to you but I'll just send the screenshot anyway.
I'm trying to state that there is intotal 81 Enviro400 in total that have been ordered and there is 50 ordered by TfGM which are stored in that Army Place and There's 31 that Stagecoach ordered that are now being used as its there own vehicles
Attachments
47550
Member
Source is post #1419 - the freedom of information release by TfGM. It doesn’t say which body style they are though just that they’re E400s.
Must admit I assumed the 31 were the MMCs from the 11798-80 batch that were used in Tranche 2 depots by Stagecoach (since then 72 of the batch have been bought by TfGM). Happy to be wrong on this.
It is easy to lose track of developments on here as there are so many posts and so many vehicle movements (that reference is over 400 posts ago for example !) so please can we bear that in mind and have patience when posting on here. Thanks.
Must admit I assumed the 31 were the MMCs from the 11798-80 batch that were used in Tranche 2 depots by Stagecoach (since then 72 of the batch have been bought by TfGM). Happy to be wrong on this.
It is easy to lose track of developments on here as there are so many posts and so many vehicle movements (that reference is over 400 posts ago for example !) so please can we bear that in mind and have patience when posting on here. Thanks.
mayneway
Member
They are only at Hyde road now for driver training (VF), and won’t see service until January.
They majority will be stored at either the army barracks in Eccles or at Selwyns yard in Sharston.
It's not so small when you consider the fleetnumber is printed on the ticket (afaik, it is in my area - bus, ticket, ticket machine, driver, route, duty, turn). Having to figure out whether those details can be trusted or not, at a later date, is not something you need during an official proceeding, such as an employment tribunal, insurance claim or accident inquiry.
I'd love to say this was a theoretical, for argument purposes only, but we do currently have a safety review in Manchester. They tend to pick up on things like this, and ask the question - is there a wider culture of ignoring standard procedures? It can be a very awkward day for a depot manager, clutching his company manual, emblazoned with all the usual slogans speaking to competence and diligence.
Class 466
Established Member
You’re putting 2+2 together to make 5 - the ones in service at Oldham are part of that 50 Vehicle TFGM Order for Stockport and will transfer there in January.
There nothing to suggest the other 31 have even been ordered by Stagecoach.
jeffery9098
On Moderation
Yeah, it's very easy to lose track of development. I've been focusing on that for a few weeks figuring on what the freedom of information means. It does show somewhat of a blueprint of bus orders that have been ordered and delivered and some buses that havent yet been delivered. The 72 Enviro400MMC which are now owned by TfGM doesn't inflict the bus orders that were placed in November 2023 which are 247 euro 6 buses ordered by TfGM however bus operators carry the bus financial side but TfGM still owns them hence why you don't see on buslistsontheweb "Transport For Greater Manchester" e.g. ADL E40D
in Bus Franchising Fleet pdf the 72 Enviro400MMC aren't tied to any Tranche but as TfGM stated "72 vehicles would allow for ‘interworking’ in the Large Franchises." Which explains that the 72 2024 E400MMC aren't tied to any Tranche's but only are tied to the Large Franchise e.g. Large Depots won by successful operators
If you want to go down to Ministry of Defence place in Greater Manchester and individually count how many E400 CiTY's be my guess. As you seem to be disagreeing that TfGM vehicles [Orderded for Tranche 3] are magically allowed to go into service in a different Tranche depsite being ordered for Tranche 3. As if this was the case, Why isn't Diamond + Go-Ahead North West Brand-New E200MMC aren't allowed to go into service depsite those E200MMC were a order that TfGM purchased back to November 2023 For Tranche 3.. and what makes Stagecoach have the special card "to use the buses early" for what?
Oh no there is shortage of buses in Tranche 2 and We must allow Stagecoach to start using the 50 Enviro400CiTY ordered for Tranche 3 for a Tranche 2 issue as this is now TfGM issue depsite TfGM isnt incharge for the lack of buses that Bus Operators can't provide for its services... It'll only fund on what needs to be funded and anything else would be down to bus operators...
Let's wait and see if the total amount of Enviro400CiTY's leads up to 31 being used in Tranche 2 and Let's see if the total amount of Enviro400CiTY's leads up 50 which are going to be used in Tranche 3.
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Leedsbusman
Member
I’m curious to know why this matters so much that people are getting their knickers knotted? In about six weeks we will know which buses are based at which depot and all will be calm. It seems fairly pointless trying to second guess it all!
jeffery9098
On Moderation
yes but I'm not discussing about "where the e400CiTY's are going. I'm more focused on understanding who owns them and understanding that freedom of information pdf
Class 466
Established Member
I was merely trying to correct a misunderstanding based on facts but moving on…
Scania usage at Queens Road should drop markedly over the next week as more MMCs arrive. In the end Queens will have 11263-71, 11504-29 & 11825-8 to replace 15 B9s, 20 Scanias and the 4 “Classic” Enviro 400s.