The fast ones to East Croydon would probably still be run by southern not TfL
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TfL chief Sir Peter Hendy: Southeastern trains into capital are 'sh*t'
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The fast ones to East Croydon would probably still be run by southern not TfL
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Well when the whole of the East London Line was suspended because of a major signal outage on the whole New Cross-Highbury section Hendy was silent. When LU had cement following into the Vic Line signal centre, TOCs never called them *s**t* and I'm sure if someone reminded Hendy of the time when there was a huge safety breach with the "runaway train" on the Northern Line he wouldn't have bothered saying anything about Southeastern.
The fact is TfL operating NR routes make no difference in reliability overall. None, what so ever. Passengers feel short changed in London, Norwich, Penrith, everywhere. TfL are seen as expensive and unreliable just as much as any other service really. The cost of a single tube journey is ridiculous.
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Ok EC maybe but not for the others. TfL doesn't work like that really so I cant see them letting fasts as the paths would be cut for their all amazing stopping services.
I'm sure those customers who were former Silverlink Metro passengers may disagree with you.
gtr driver
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Yes, but it was unfair and unprofessional for him, as a transport industry insider, to blame the TOCs themselves for some of their actions. Because as an insider he understands the government's franchising system that tightly specifies the service level, and demands a premium, from a commercial body that it knows will cut costs (such as staff levels) in order to produce the premium and the quite small profits (relatively speaking) that a heavily-commuter based franchise such as SE can make. Southern runs more frequent and later services because they were specified in its franchise and partly funded by TfL. SE runs a generally poorer frequency because that it is all it has been asked to do. If it wants to go beyond its remit it has to demonstrate value for money to the DfT and it would probably have a job doing so. TfL's own rail concession is not subject to the same commercial pressures and is thus able to put the passenger first. It's undoubtedly a pitch for SE Metro (which I do support) and beyond but not a subtle or wise one. I have participated in every consultation that the DfT has held about SE London services recently and it made no one iota of difference. The South London service went. The Catford Loop stuck at 2tph post 2018. No improvement in late and Sunday frequencies. Short trains on summer weekend services that are worse than the morning rush hour. Attack the DfT not their pawns.
*plays devils advocate* What about Tattenham Corner (Zone 6) trains? A sensible system would mean Horsham/Dorking trains not being spilt from the Epsom/Sutton/Epsom Downs operations so slowing down isn't really impossible.
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I should have excluded its former Silverlink lines as I was talking about the routes not operated by them however, the infrastructure has been drastically changed on the NLL and the Watford DC isn't really doing any better than before. Most delays are still Network Rail responsibility or at fault of Freight operators.
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Example: Metropolitan Line.
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I thought the Tattenham fasts will run through the Thameslink core post 2018?
Ok, 1 example out of god knows how many lines they run. However I simply do not trust TfL rail to do the same. They will state that more frequent trains will be better than faster trains and it will keep them out of the way of the trains they don't run if they always shove them onto the slows.
No, I meant look at what they have done to the Met line timetable. All slows out off peak now. Baker St - Chesham takes way too long now.
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I honestly forgot about that, but people seriously want TfL to take all of Thameslink over anyway. While I think Thameslink and Crossrail should be branded like the Paris RER, it shouldn't be fully under TfL control.
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Really? Of course it is if you pay cash, but almost no-one does these days. Heathrow Airport to Earls Court for £1.50 off-peak. Only £3.10 if you continue into zone 1. £5.10 peak will get you from Uxbridge to Epping. Bargain!
Ahh sorry I thought they still done the fasts & semis(ooh err) but yep that's exatly what I think they will do . And mentioned something about keeping the fares low by doing so
Yes all good and well if you're going across the whole network but for £2.30 for one stop is a lot. Why should it cost £4.80 cash from London Bridge to Bond Street? But £2.30-£1.50 with Oyster? Its totally insane.
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No worries, they changed it years ago. As for the keeping fares low, that is nonsense, fares aren't any higher because half of Southeastern services avoid Lewisham and skip St Johns and New Cross - unless they mean because less track will have to be looked after, which I understand. However, New York has express trains every hour of the day and the fares are flat rate and very cheap. All LU have done is make people want to crush onto Chiltern services by making them all stations.
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I thought his "s**t" comment in particular was referring to Southeastern trains, as in the rolling stock itself.
And he's right in that the current internal condition of the 465/466 fleet is nowhere near the standard of the South West Trains or Southern metro and suburban units. Not quite as bad as Abellio Greater Anglia though...
in an ideal world there would be, along each route, separate tracks for a high-frequency all-stations metro service out to a Watford equivalent, preferably paired to a service across the opposite side of London. On some routes there would then be a pair of tracks for services stopping only once or twice (stations such as Stratford, East Croydon etc) out to the Metro limit, and then a mix of services beyond. On the busiest/long distance routes you'd then have a third pair (and it could be UL DL UR DR UM DM or UL US UF DF DS DL) for long distance express services. Grade separation everywhere would be mandatory. That would minimise conflicts and mean that a failure on one system (the metro, the suburban or the intercity) would not impact on any of the others. But that would be enormously expensive to retrofit onto the existing system, so especially in South London there's an awful lot of mixing.
Cash fares were artificially inflated to coax passengers into getting an Oyster card initially. Same now with One Day Travelcards where an off-peak TC z1-6 is now £12.00 compared to the lower price Oyster/Contactless caps.
The 376s are decent though, the lack of a toilet notwithstanding.
I was basing my comment on the reported comment that:
If there is a context, the interview was several weeks ago during the worst of the issues at London Bridge. But thats not an excuse. Passion is no excuse for insult. Sorry. (posting #133)
If an attack on the state of Southeastern rolling stock were set off by train service and station control issues, which predominantly affected the Central Division side of London Bridge, this would raise further questions about the gentleman concerned's judgement. In any case the "Gestapo" comment plainly doesn't relate to the state of the rolling stock.
My concern is that, in response to problems with Southern, Mr Hendy has chosen to launch an attack on Southeastern. Why? The man I suspect was being either a "knave or a fool" - I doubt that he is the latter. In other words he picked on Southeastern for a reason and I suspect that somewhere in this thread that reason has been mentioned!
But most informed people are not asking for TfL takeovers due to increased reliability. That cannot be fixed quickly or by TfL alone. It's because they want a railway that has stations that are staffed from first to last train, does not allow fare evaders such an easy pass and makes sure more revenue comes in which can then be invested. Fare evading on many Nat Rail routes is a breeze. There's other benefits such as weekend 24hr running that is coming progressively to various TfL modes, and which in a busier 24hr city is very much needed. By 2020 much of London will have quick and easy 24 hour weekend routes for leisure and helping shift workers but much of SE London will have incredibly slow night buses. And the engineering line shouldn't really apply - it's only 2 nights a week that would be 24hr and that's after London Bridge rebuild is complete.
Plus there's the better advertising and publicity from TfL that helps to get people out of cars and onto trains increasing passenger numbers and the railway's self-sustainability. SE have some good timetable changes coming up but you can be sure advertising will be non-existent.
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It's not just transport in London that has that problem. Something like 10% of my phone bill is some made-up nonsense figure slapped on by BT because I pay it in cash.
There is no way on earth I would have an oyster card even if I did live in London, for two reasons:
- It takes away my control over my own money. If I'm going to pay for anything then the person or system taking my money must inform me that the price is some specific amount and then receive my permission to take that specific amount. A system which just puts its hand in my pocket and takes what it wants without either telling me how much it's taking or allowing me to say yea or nay is totally unacceptable.
- It collects personal information without my permission. This is also totally unacceptable.
Seems there is no way to prevent either of these other than forcing it to act like a normal ticket, by buying one card per journey and paying onto it, in cash, only the cost of that one journey, then throwing it away afterwards. (Or, better, giving it to someone else so as to corrupt the personal data collection.) I don't know if this is even possible, let alone convenient.
There ought to be a law that the price charged for anything must always be the same regardless of how you pay for it, in order to prevent these kinds of scams. (Indeed I have half an idea that there used to be, but they either got rid of it or made it ineffective just at the time when it would have started to be really useful...)
Oyster is now old technology; we've moved on*.
Use a contactless payment card.
Use a pre-paid contactless card then!
I'm pretty sure someone told me they exist just a few days ago, but one of our resident card experts can confirm if my memory is correct...
It's not really a "scam" in any meaningful sense though.
* Assuming you're either not entitled to any discounts, in which case you're stuck as contactless doesn't (yet?) support discounts
The barriers now talk to contactless bank cards in the same way as they talk to oyster cards, and there has been enough publicity about the risk of it picking up the wrong card if you have both that I have managed to hear about it without going to London
It is the same system, just going direct without the oyster card acting as an intermediary, and has the same disadvantages.
The only 24 hr rail services in London at the moment is Thameslink and Southern - so I don't buy that. Even the 24hr LO service won't be on NR tracks but between Highbury & New Cross Gate only, even though Thameslink will begin resume 24hr services through the Sydenham corridor after London Bridge works. So by that logic you're more likely to have a service not run by TfL on NR infrastructure to be 24hr.
With fare evasion I agree, but there are still many LO stations without barriers. I could easily go from Penge West to Harringay Grn Lanes without a ticket. Barriers are not practical everywhere and staff don't ask to see tickets at stations without them.
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Indeed, it is totally wrong. It should all be the same.
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And lack of Air Con.
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Seriously, please stop being paranoid and set up a direct debit and start using a PAYG Oyster or contactless card.
Your fear of multiple conspiracies must be quite literally costing you a fortune. Why would you pay extra to BT for the sake of it? You get a bill and have to pay it, so why not use the most cost effective method?
You'd also be mad to buy paper tickets (bar a Travelcard perhaps) in and around London.
An unregistered Oyster card does not collect personal data.
The fares chargeable for Oyster journeys are published clearly on the TfL website. You give it permission to take that amount by touching your Oyster card on the yellow reader. It tells you how much it's taking by means of the electronic display (except on a small number of stations with very old ticket gates).
I agree with your concerns about utility bills I pay my gas and electric only after I have received and verified the bill and will under no circumstances pay grossly overestimated direct debit amounts. I choose suppliers who do not apply a surcharge for doing so. However, having worked in payment services industries most of my working life, I can confirm that direct debits are the cheapest method to accept as they are automatically liked to your account and require no staff time.
I didn't think there were anymore paper tickets other than the Travelcard?
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He probably realised what a fool he made of himself!
Busaholic
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Slightly off-topic, but as the subject has been alluded to in a few recent posts, ticket checks on TfL buses certainly happen regularly. On my most recent London trip, I travelled on buses three times in Central London and experienced ticket checks twice. Both times the checks were on (non-conductor) Borismasters, so maybe fare evasion is as prevalent on these as on the bendies? Would agree that travelling in the suburbs ticket checks far less likely, except on Tramlink.
I have much more faith in TfL adopting 24 hrs in the next 5-10 years than the DfT stipulating it. Their lethargy at pushing improvements for SE going back 10 years doesn't give me confidence in them. Maybe NR are the obstacle but would TfL be better at levying pressure on them to change?
As for barriers LO have some unbarriered but around 80% of SE metro stations can be accessed without a barrier due to numerous side gates or have barriers left open almost all day - a far higher percentage than LO have. In many cases some relatively simple work could bring all entrances into one station building area but it needs the powers that be to specify - DfT don't but TfL would given records on lines they've taken over.
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Indeed. Out of the stations which LOROL/TfL took over between New Cross Gate and West Croydon/Crystal Palace, only two are not gated, the least used Penge West and Anerley.
I've commuted on that line for most of my life and travelling is a lot more safer than it used to be under NSE/Connex/South Central/Southern. The same can't be said for Southeastern, especially on the Greenwich line which has it's fare share of ungated stations and fare evaders.
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