TfL Off Peak Friday Travel

[NigelH]

TfL have announced that, for a trial period starting on 8th March, all Friday travel will be charged as off-peak. I am interested in travelling from Reading to Gatwick airport on a Friday in what would previously have been morning peak period. TfL's single fare finder quotes a fare for this journey of £21.10, compared to a normal peak time fare of £44 and a ticket price (from BRFares.com) of £54.80 for any permitted route, or £31.70 via Gomshall. If I travelled via Paddington and Farringdon (or Paddington and Victoria) and used contactless payment then it seems clear that the TfL fare would apply, but would that also be the case with the direct service via Gomshall, which goes outside the TfL fare area?

 

[Mike395]

No - the TfL fares structure isn't valid on the direct route, you'd need to buy a paper ticket (or travel via London).

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately if you touch in at Gatwick Airport with contactless pay as you go, you could be charged a Penalty Fare if you're found on the train between Redhill and Reading. Your choice is therefore to travel via London Paddington, touching as needed, or buy the route Gomshall ticket for the through services.

 

[NigelH]

Thanks for the prompt replies; unfortunately, that was what I expected. It does seem a crazy system, though: if I remember correctly, it's possible to transfer between Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line at Farringdon without passing a ticket barrier, so it would be possible to travel all the way from Reading to Gatwick without any proof of having passed through London, and it seems to me plain stupid that paper tickets are a different price from contactless anyway. It's probably academic in my case, anyway: I have an advance ticket on the direct train I hope to catch, and if I miss it then it will almost certainly be quicker to go via London than take the next direct one.

 

[Starmill]

Thanks for the prompt replies; unfortunately, that was what I expected. It does seem a crazy system, though: if I remember correctly, it's possible to transfer between Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line at Farringdon without passing a ticket barrier, so it would be possible to travel all the way from Reading to Gatwick without any proof of having passed through London, and it seems to me plain stupid that paper tickets are a different price from contactless anyway. It's probably academic in my case, anyway: I have an advance ticket on the direct train I hope to catch, and if I miss it then it will almost certainly be quicker to go via London than take the next direct one.

You'd be charged the default fare if you used the direct train yes, although in this case it would appear there's only the default route and no other pay as you go options. That's not permitted though, and it is crazy that it's the way it works. Same for Feltham to Reading.

 

[boiledbeans2]

[...] It does seem a crazy system, though: if I remember correctly, it's possible to transfer between Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line at Farringdon without passing a ticket barrier, so it would be possible to travel all the way from Reading to Gatwick without any proof of having passed through London, [...]

From my experience on the North Downs Line (the Reading - Gatwick line), ticket checks are frequent, even at night. So it would be difficult to use contactless without getting caught.

 

[JonathanH]

it seems to me plain stupid that paper tickets are a different price from contactless anyway

The return fare from Reading to Gatwick is very much cheaper via Gomshall than London. It is just that Contactless is based on single leg pricing.

Where fares have been harmonised on a PAYG scale it has meant higher prices for many users and more restrictions.

if I remember correctly, it's possible to transfer between Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line at Farringdon without passing a ticket barrier, so it would be possible to travel all the way from Reading to Gatwick without any proof of having passed through London

Indeed, the interchange at Farringdon and lack of an internal gateline is a huge hole in the PAYG system for a number of different journeys on the PAYG system.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed, the interchange at Farringdon and lack of an internal gateline is a huge hole in the PAYG system for a number of different journeys on the PAYG system.

It's not much of a hole when the assumption is that journeys will by default pass through central London.

 

[miklcct]

It's not much of a hole when the assumption is that journeys will by default pass through central London.

but when Oval Phase 2 is rolled out, which covers the North Downs Line, the assumption will have to be a direct train by default - this is why journeys from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington are charged as a single-zone journey with the pass at Shoreditch High Street being undetectable.

When there are multiple reasonable routes, and one of them is a direct train, it is impossible to distinguish it from other routes unless the other routes have a gated interchange in between.

Journeys in the current network which have this loophole includes the like of West Brompton - Highbury & Islington, where a direct orbital train or going via Zone 1 can both be used.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed, the interchange at Farringdon and lack of an internal gateline is a huge hole in the PAYG system for a number of different journeys on the PAYG system.

There are absolutely loads of cases where that happens, from London Bridge between national rail operators, to Moorgate between all routes, to Bond Street between the Elizabeth line and LU lines, and so on so forth. All conceptually the same as Farringdon. In reality, it's handled easily by some journeys being charged as if they were via zone 1 even if they're not. The exceptions are really very minor. The prices for singles via Gomshall are actually higher than the cpay. Off Peak Returns would make a small saving.

 

[Wolfie]

but when Oval Phase 2 is rolled out, which covers the North Downs Line, the assumption will have to be a direct train by default - this is why journeys from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington are charged as a single-zone journey with the pass at Shoreditch High Street being undetectable.

When there are multiple reasonable routes, and one of them is a direct train, it is impossible to distinguish it from other routes unless the other routes have a gated interchange in between.

Journeys in the current network which have this loophole includes the like of West Brompton - Highbury & Islington, where a direct orbital train or going via Zone 1 can both be used.

Re your first para you forgot the direct Overground service via Willesden Junction between Clapham Junction and Highbury and Islington.

 

[miklcct]

Re your first para you forgot the direct Overground service via Willesden Junction between Clapham Junction and Highbury and Islington.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no way for the system to detect the additional zones without passing through barriers, if there exists a cheaper direct train.

 

[Wolfie]

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no way for the system to detect the additional zones without passing through barriers, if there exists a cheaper direct train.

That l agree.

 

[Tetchytyke]

but when Oval Phase 2 is rolled out, which covers the North Downs Line, the assumption will have to be a direct train by default

I’m sure that, in that case, it will simply result in the removal of the cheaper ‘via Gomshall’ fare on PAYG.

 

[mangyiscute]

its very unlikely the paper ticket fares will be removed, in which case all that is happening is the customer is getting more choice.
This is what has happened with Reading to London fares - as someone with a railcard, sometimes its cheaper to buy a paper ticket, sometimes its cheaper to use contactless, but having that option is great since I can always choose the cheaper option.

 

[JonathanH]

This is what has happened with Reading to London fares - as someone with a railcard, sometimes its cheaper to buy a paper ticket, sometimes its cheaper to use contactless, but having that option is great since I can always choose the cheaper option.

It is what happened with Reading to London fares as the 'paper' structure was not amended to align with the Contactless structure. In the Project Oval area, there has been a greater attempt to align 'paper' and Contactless fares, including the removal of some routeing options.

As we know the Contactless option is heavily delayed on those routes, and, in particular, the users in the Project Oval area can't benefit from the Friday off-peak extension yet.

 

[NigelH]

Indeed, the interchange at Farringdon and lack of an internal gateline is a huge hole in the PAYG system for a number of different journeys on the PAYG system.

As it happens, I returned via London. I passed a yellow card reader at Farringdon with a sign advising people to tap their card to be charged the correct fare, but no barriers; a bit like the pink ones that are at certain stations, it seems.

 

[Hadders]

As it happens, I returned via London. I passed a yellow card reader at Farringdon with a sign advising people to tap their card to be charged the correct fare, but no barriers; a bit like the pink ones that are at certain stations, it seems.

The validators at Farringdon at the top of the Elizabeth Line escalators (and on the Underground platforms) are not like pink readers.

They should only be used when switching from a traditional ticket to Oyster/contactless at Farringdon. Touching them mid-Oyster/contactless journey could have unintended consequences if your card is inspected after the tap at Farringdon.

 

[Watershed]

The validators at Farringdon at the top of the Elizabeth Line escalators (and on the Underground platforms) are not like pink readers.

They should only be used when switching from a traditional ticket to Oyster/contactless at Farringdon. Touching them mid-Oyster/contactless journey could have unintended consequences if your card is inspected after the tap at Farringdon.

I think they're set to continuation exit in recognition of the fact that people may incorrectly touch their card or device there when not needed.

 

[Hadders]

I think they're set to continuation exit in recognition of the fact that people may incorrectly touch their card or device there when not needed.

I believe that’s correct but we’ve seen issues in the past where, if you’re using Oyster PAYG and touch the validator mid-way through your journey and are then inspected onboard you shows you’re not touched-in.

ISTR @MikeWh intervening in at least one case in the past.

 

[MikeWh]

ISTR @MikeWh intervening in at least one case in the past.

Yes, I did. It was at Kentish Town (before the current closure). The penalty fare was rescinded on appeal once I explained exactly how the system worked.