TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[Haywain]

Let me rephrase: how is the removal of day travelcards a precursor to switching period travelcards to ITSO only? Since all currently available travelcards could be issued entirely on ITSO right now, if desired.

The removal of day travelcards is not a precursor to switching period travelcards to ITSO, but I believe the withdrawal of paper period travelcards is an obvious and inevitable follow up.

Since there is a requirement to provide cross London (Maltese cross) magstripe support, I don't really see that discontinuing paper travelcards will be a priority until that is sorted.

The work required to remove the need for magstripe support for cross-London tickets is already underway - it's only a matter of time.

 

[reddragon]

For me a peak travelcard costs £8 and off peak £5.60 more than a return. The Zone 1-2 cap is £8.10 at all times or £14.90 zones 1 to 6.

Kids tickets are not much cheaper than Adult rates peak times.

Hassle + extra costs = less travel to London

 

[Hadders]

Personally, yes. Can I ask the 60 attendees of an event I’m organising to do it? Nope. Some would I’m sure, but there will be others who won’t want to travel if it means doing that. Even if they all did, then that’s 60 more expense claims going in, many by people who may never make them normally so a pain in the bum and a waste of more time.

I’m not sure what the solution is other than status quo.

What would you do if the event was in another city? Presumably a load of taxi claims, or bus fares or local rail fares?

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to see Travelcards withdrawn but for a simple return within Zone 1 or 2 they’re not usually the cheapest option.

 

[Skie]

What would you do if the event was in another city? Presumably a load of taxi claims, or bus fares or local rail fares?

Depends on the city obviously but generally event spaces are near to railway stations. Our travel portal can do any national rail station so any group travel is handled via that with no extra claims required.

London is also ridiculously expensive for events, so perhaps looking elsewhere is a net benefit anyway. We just had an event in Liverpool and the per delegate rates are £20+ cheaper for the same level of service and arguably better location (I may be biased )

 

[Deerfold]

What would you do if the event was in another city? Presumably a load of taxi claims, or bus fares or local rail fares?

In most cities I can get a PlusBus to cover me for the bus (and sometimes the trams). With Railcard discounts. Just over a week since my wife and I did that to see a band in Nottingham.

Any chance of London stopping being the only city to not have them (or accept them on their buses when they run in PlusBus areas)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In most cities I can get a PlusBus to cover me for the bus (and sometimes the trams). With Railcard discounts. Just over a week since my wife and I did that to see a band in Nottingham.

I bet the number of business travellers using PlusBus is very, very close to 0. Hardly anyone knows it exists.

Outside London the most likely thing to do is take a taxi.

 

[johncrossley]

(or accept them on their buses when they run in PlusBus areas)?

The Redhill Plusbus is valid on the 405.

Redhill PlusBus

Redhill PlusBus

www.plusbus.info

Participating operators:​

Metrobus, Compass Travel, Transport for London (red bus route 405), Southdown

What is the procedure for getting Plusbus accepted? Somebody must have done something to get it accepted on the 405.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The Redhill Plusbus is valid on the 405.

Redhill PlusBus

Redhill PlusBus

www.plusbus.info

What is the procedure for getting Plusbus accepted? Somebody must have done something to get it accepted on the 405.

My guess would be that Surrey CC had a hand in facilitating this.

 

[35B]

Personally, yes. Can I ask the 60 attendees of an event I’m organising to do it? Nope. Some would I’m sure, but there will be others who won’t want to travel if it means doing that. Even if they all did, then that’s 60 more expense claims going in, many by people who may never make them normally so a pain in the bum and a waste of more time.

I’m not sure what the solution is other than status quo.

As a regular claimer of expenses, for a company that does not do central settlement, my reaction to this scenario is that the changes proposed by TfL are exposing issues with your employer's management of employee expenses, and are not good reasons for TfL to sustain the status quo.

I write this as someone who is opposed to this change, believes it retrograde, and has grave doubts about it's compliance with TfL's duties under the Equalities Act due to the indirect discrimination it promotes.

 

[Deerfold]

I bet the number of business travellers using PlusBus is very, very close to 0. Hardly anyone knows it exists.

Outside London the most likely thing to do is take a taxi.

Presumably that's a fault in advertising rather than with the scheme. I've certainly used it for business visits, as has my wife (not just for the same company we now work for). It arranging tickets centrally, it's as easy to get them with PlusBus as with a Travelcard.

Is it thus reasonable to assume everyone visiting London for business will use a Taxi?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it thus reasonable to assume everyone visiting London for business will use a Taxi?

Many indeed will, though fewer than elsewhere because the public transport is (a) excellent and (b) well understood.

 

[SWT_USER]

I've responded to to the consultation. The only real issue I have with this is not being able to add a Network Railcard discount to an Oyster card. I am doubly stung by the removal as my nearest Zone 6 station is Heathrow T4 where only anytime fares are available, so I am always paying a premium if I can't buy a discounted travelcard.

I assume the answer is no chance... but have there been any discussions at TFL re adding a Network Railcard discount to Oyster?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't the issue with the NSE implementing the £13 minimum fare? In essence, as that doesn't apply to Travelcards (and only Travelcards) you need to not discount any single fares but discount the cap, which is probably too complex for "old Oyster" to handle. "New Oyster" might be able to do it though, i.e. when Oyster is moved onto the contactless back-end.

 

[SussexSeagull]

So will Oyster users still be able to use services by other TOC such as Thameslink?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So will Oyster users still be able to use services by other TOC such as Thameslink?

Yes, why wouldn't they?

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't the issue with the NSE implementing the £13 minimum fare? In essence, as that doesn't apply to Travelcards (and only Travelcards) you need to not discount any single fares but discount the cap, which is probably too complex for "old Oyster" to handle. "New Oyster" might be able to do it though, i.e. when Oyster is moved onto the contactless back-end.

Also that a Network Card allows for multiple adults and children, which cannot be translated easily to Oyster or Contactless. Same with friends and family, two together, there may be others…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also that a Network Card allows for multiple adults and children, which cannot be translated easily to Oyster or Contactless. Same with friends and family, two together, there may be others…

Less of an issue than F&F and 2T though because a single person is a valid discount. Disabled I'm sure is added despite it allowing a companion which similarly isn't easy to implement.

 

[SWT_USER]

Also that a Network Card allows for multiple adults and children, which cannot be translated easily to Oyster or Contactless. Same with friends and family, two together, there may be others…

Also true of a Gold Card though, which can be added to Oyster - so presumably that is not the reason.

I hadn't considered the point about the minimum fare - that makes sense.

I'll just have to suck it up and decide if it's worth buying the cheapest Annual gold card for the discount.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Yes, why wouldn't they?

One could argue it is a slightly one sided deal as Londoners get to continue to use national infrastructure on the same ticket but the rest of us can't continue to use TFL services on the same ticket.

I would have a real problem if it isn't possible to get a point to point ticket to overground stations in London or they stopped people being able to travel across London to transfer between terminals using one ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hadn't considered the point about the minimum fare - that makes sense.

What we need to bear in mind is that Oyster is now nearly 25 year old technology (I feel old typing that! ) with a lot of the logic on the card, which means it can't readily be upgraded. That's one reason why the plan (not sure of timeline) is to move Oyster onto the contactless back-end.

 

[Haywain]

One could argue it is a slightly one sided deal as Londoners get to continue to use national infrastructure on the same ticket but the rest of us can't continue to use TFL services on the same ticket.

Anyone can have an Oyster card, and almost everyone has a contactless payment card - that's far from being restricted to Londoners.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Anyone can have an Oyster card, and almost everyone has a contactless payment card - that's far from being restricted to Londoners.

In essence they are stopping people buying tickets elsewhere and using TFL services. Surely that door swings both ways?

Nothing to stop Londoners buying a single or return ticket on Thameslink.

 

[Deerfold]

Many indeed will, though fewer than elsewhere because the public transport is (a) excellent and (b) well understood.

There's other places with excellent public transport, though few over an area as wide.

Presumably it just needs whoever books the tickets to be aware of PlusBus and tell those who will be using the tickets how to get to the event.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's other places with excellent public transport, though few over an area as wide.

Presumably it just needs wonder books the tickets to be aware of PlusBus and tell those who will be using the tickets how to get to the event.

I suspect you'd also need to address the issue that most business travellers turn their nose up at bus travel. As if to demonstrate that our expenses system doesn't have an option for bus travel (I put it in under rail as the VAT situation is the same).

I'd expect if say Metrolink, NET, Merseyrail or the T&W Metro is applicable that'll get used, but if someone arrives at MKC on a business trip they aren't going to subject themselves to Arriva's dross, they'll just turn left for the taxi rank or use Uber.

 

[43066]

In essence they are stopping people buying tickets elsewhere and using TFL services. Surely that door swings both ways?

Nothing to stop Londoners buying a single or return ticket on Thameslink.

You can buy tickets from anywhere to include London Underground, and Overground and the Elizabeth Line are national rail services, though.

 

[SussexSeagull]

You can buy tickets from anywhere to include London Underground, and Overground and the Elizabeth Line are national rail services, though.

You can at the moment until one day Travelcards are withdrawn.

I had to go to an event near Tottenham Court Road the Saturday before last. Putting aside having to get the bus from Worthing to Brighton due to the strikes and having to get to London for 0930 I worked out it would have actually been cheaper, by admittedly pence, to go from Victoria to TCR using contactless and getting a return ticket. As it happened I got a one day travelcard due to convenience but using contactless for the tube bit wouldn't have been a problem.

I hope in my example if Travelcards are withdrawn I get to buy a return ticket from Durrington to Tottenham Court Road, changing at Farringdon between Thameslink and Crossrail. Although this would presumably mean TFL getting no money from me as opposed to some?

 

[43066]

You can at the moment until one day Travelcards are withdrawn.

I had to go to an event near Tottenham Court Road the Saturday before last. Putting aside having to get the bus from Worthing to Brighton due to the strikes and having to get to London for 0930 I worked out it would have actually been cheaper, by admittedly pence, to go from Victoria to TCR using contactless and getting a return ticket. As it happened I got a one day travelcard due to convenience but using contactless for the tube bit wouldn't have been a problem.

I hope in my example if Travelcards are withdrawn I get to buy a return ticket from Durrington to Tottenham Court Road, changing at Farringdon between Thameslink and Crossrail. Although this would presumably mean TFL getting no money from me as opposed to some?

Could you not get a ticket via Victoria to TCR with a Maltese cross allowing you use the tube?

 

[paul1609]

Could you not get a ticket via Victoria to TCR with a Maltese cross allowing you use the tube?

You could, but on a saturday (and arriving after 10.45 m-f) it will be cheaper to get a Superoff peak return to Victoria and pay contactless on the tube.

 

[SussexSeagull]

At the moment on the Southern website if you try and get a return to Tottenham Court Road off peak they sell you a one day travelcard for £29.50 (without Network Card, etc. discount). If you want a single they offer one to zone 1-6 for £44.50.

I would hope that pricing gets reviewed once Travelcards are withdrawn.

 

[Deerfold]

I suspect you'd also need to address the issue that most business travellers turn their nose up at bus travel. As if to demonstrate that our expenses system doesn't have an option for bus travel (I put it in under rail as the VAT situation is the same).

I'd expect if say Metrolink, NET, Merseyrail or the T&W Metro is applicable that'll get used, but if someone arrives at MKC on a business trip they aren't going to subject themselves to Arriva's dross, they'll just turn left for the taxi rank or use Uber.

I did specifically refer to cities - and yes, many prefer trams to buses. I also only suggested their use where the public transport system was excellent.