TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[Haywain]

Further to my earlier posts, my MP has now had a response from the Secretary of State, which I have inserted below. It makes it clear that as far as the DfT are concerned it's a mayoral matter and they have no intention to intervene.

 

[MikeWM]

Slightly off topic for this thread, but in that instance the Navigo decouvert would be what you'd need; €30.00 for seven days ( runs Monday to Sunday ) so just over €4.00 a day for unlimited travel within the zones ( which extend about 30 miles out of Paris ) on all modes including peak hours and there are no silly journey time limits on it either...

...and that's exactly the sort of ticket that we should be having in London.

I'm not usually there long enough to justify that, but I agree it is a very nice option to have. Paris (at least currently) has a decent range of tickets at reasonable prices to cover most needs. London appears to be going for a one-size-fits-all approach, and if you're not happy with the approach taken, hard luck.

 

[Haywain]

Slightly off topic for this thread, but in that instance the Navigo decouvert would be what you'd need; €30.00 for seven days ( runs Monday to Sunday ) so just over €4.00 a day for unlimited travel within the zones ( which extend about 30 miles out of Paris ) on all modes including peak hours and there are no silly journey time limits on it either...

...and that's exactly the sort of ticket that we should be having in London.

So the equivalent of a 7-day all zones Travelcard? Something we do, and will continue to, have.

 

[island]

Of course that's probably going to go away fairly soon too, which will be a similar shame to the withdrawal of Travelcards.

Mobilis is probably on the way out but you can get all day ticket on a Navigo smartcard for the same price, or a calendar week for less than the price of two days.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

So the equivalent of a 7-day all zones Travelcard? Something we do, and will continue to, have.

A bit better than that, given that if we had the same size zones over here, the zone boundaries would include places like Guildford, Woking, Stevenage, Dorking, Three Bridges, Maidstone, Chelmsford...

Imagine the apoplexy in the Treasury if we had all that lot for about £4 a day including peaks hours...

 

[island]

So the equivalent of a 7-day all zones Travelcard? Something we do, and will continue to, have.

Indeed, and the French version is a calendar week (valid till the next Sunday) and is not sold on Fridays, Saturdays, or Sundays.

 

[MikeWM]

So the equivalent of a 7-day all zones Travelcard? Something we do, and will continue to, have.

Which, after much wrestling with the TfL website to try to find out actual fares - which they seem to try to make as difficult to find as possible - appears to be £74.40, or about 3 times the cost of the Paris equivalent, for a much smaller area.

And I wonder how much longer that will last, to be replaced by the significantly less user-friendly 'capping', at the same price?

--

Mobilis is probably on the way out

Of course, it is a convenient ticket that is trivially understandable and doesn't require a 'smartcard'. Can't have that in this exciting modern world.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

which they seem to try to make as difficult to find as possible

1 google search for travelcard prices and then a drop down box for which zone to start, a drop down box for destination zone, and a drop down box to clarify if you have any discount entitlements is perhaps the simplest it could be

Caps and Travelcard prices

Covers Travelcards and Cap fares for Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and most National Rail services.

tfl.gov.uk

 

[redreni]

1 google search for travelcard prices and then a drop down box for which zone to start, a drop down box for destination zone, and a drop down box to clarify if you have any discount entitlements is perhaps the simplest it could be

Caps and Travelcard prices

Covers Travelcards and Cap fares for Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and most National Rail services.

tfl.gov.uk

Try finding the outboundary caps. I don't want to give too many clues but it involves a fair bit of scrolling and you have to download a pdf.

 

[jon81uk]

Try finding the outboundary caps. I don't want to give too many clues but it involves a fair bit of scrolling and you have to download a pdf.

Why would a tourist need to know them?

A bit better than that, given that if we had the same size zones over here, the zone boundaries would include places like Guildford, Woking, Stevenage, Dorking, Three Bridges, Maidstone, Chelmsford...

Imagine the apoplexy in the Treasury if we had all that lot for about £4 a day including peaks hours...

The transport in France is cheaper because it is subsidised properly by the government, which given in the letter above where the secretary for state doesn't even acknowledge that travelcard is a joint National Rail and TfL ticket, I don't think our government has any interest in actually managing railways.

 

[Haywain]

I don't think our government has any interest in actually managing railways.

Nail hit firmly and squarely on head.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I don't want to give too many clues but it involves a fair bit of scrolling and you have to download a pdf.

The .pdf that is the 4th link on Google?

Or are you referring the one that is the 8th and used by a very small number of people when taking into account the number of people travelling in London everyday?

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/national-rail-adult-fares.pdf

 

[MikeWM]

The .pdf that is the 4th link on Google?

You shouldn't need to use a search engine to get basic information out of a website.

If I go to TfL's website and go to 'fares', I'd expect the actual fares to be obviously available. Instead I have to scroll down past rubbish about apps and two-factor authentication to finally get to the seventh (!) item that says 'find fares'.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The transport in France is cheaper because it is subsidised properly by the government, which given in the letter above where the secretary for state doesn't even acknowledge that travelcard is a joint National Rail and TfL ticket, I don't think our government has any interest in actually managing railways.

Excellent point.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

If I go to TfL's website and go to 'fares', I'd expect the actual fares to be obviously available. Instead I have to scroll down past rubbish about apps and two-factor authentication to finally get to the seventh (!) item that says 'find fares'.

Clicking 'Fares' and then 'Find Fares' and then clicking the subset to which your journeys apply for is not arduous and is certainly not 'made as difficult as possible' as you initially claimed. Alternatively, one can use the search box at the top of the page. Again, not 'made as difficult as possible'.

You shouldn't need to use a search engine to get basic information out of a website.

A tourist is more likely to Google 'TfL travelcard prices' or something to that effect, than they are to go directly to tfl.gov.uk

 

[jon81uk]

Clicking 'Fares' and then 'Find Fares' and then clicking the subset to which your journeys apply for is not arduous and is certainly not 'made as difficult as possible' as you initially claimed. Alternatively, one can use the search box at the top of the page. Again, not 'made as difficult as possible'.


A tourist is more likely to Google 'TfL travelcard prices' or something to that effect, than they are to go directly to tfl.gov.uk

Its not even something a tourist is going to need to know. Even if for some reason a tourist is staying out in Reading just know the single fare is £30 in the peak is enough information.

 

[MikeWM]

Clicking 'Fares' and then 'Find Fares' and then clicking the subset to which your journeys apply for is not arduous and is certainly not 'made as difficult as possible' as you initially claimed. Alternatively, one can use the search box at the top of the page. Again, not 'made as difficult as possible'.

I think it was fairly obvious I was being over-dramatic after being rather irritated at faffing around on their site for a few minutes trying to discover this most basic of information. Let's substitute with 'a lot harder than it should be'.

The fares page is quite clearly nudging you towards 'just travel using Oyster/contactless and hope that we'll charge you the right fare' as opposed to telling you what that right fare actually is, else 'find fares' would be the first thing on the 'fares' page rather than the seventh. I don't like that approach and I very much oppose this 'give us a blank cheque and cross your fingers we'll charge you correcly' approach to fares that is now being pushed. There are no such issues with Travelcards, and that is why I will be visiting London significantly less than I have over the last 15 years or so once Travelcards are withdrawn.

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note - this is an important ongoing thread about the withdrawal of One Day Travelcards. Discussion about topics such as contactless caps, tourist fares in Paris etc is interesting but should be made in a new thread to prevent this thread going off-topic.

Thanks.

 

[MikeWh]

It’ll have to be soon before it closes down

Actually, Crayford is one of the few Southeastern ticket offices NOT scheduled to close. Perhaps due to the number of travelcards they sell?

 

[Haywain]

Actually, Crayford is one of the few Southeastern ticket offices NOT scheduled to close. Perhaps due to the number of travelcards they sell?

If that's the case it's poor planning.

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note:
Discussion about alternative options for tourists when Travelcards are withdrawn has been split into this thread:

Alternative Options for Tourists when Travelcards are Withdrawn

Moderator Note - split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfl-proposes-to-withdraw-day-travelcards.247184/ So, back to Travelcards.... apologies if it's been covered in the last 1000 posts as I've not read them all, but the concept of PAYG with contactless for foreign tourists will...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

The withdrawal of one day Travelcards has appeared in latest TfL Board audit papers, which designates it as Mayoral Direction MD3142

It is page 23 of the papers, but basically says TfL think current formula splitting revenue loses them about £40m. Goes on to say if Train operating companies agree fairer formula the 6 month withdrawal notice could be redacted

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/aac-20230920-audit-and-assurance-committee-agenda-papers.pdf

 

[swt_passenger]

The withdrawal of one day Travelcards has appeared in latest TfL Board audit papers, which designates it as Mayoral Direction MD3142

It is page 23 of the papers, but basically says TfL think current formula splitting revenue loses them about £40m. Goes on to say if Train operating companies agree fairer formula the 6 month withdrawal notice could be redacted

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/aac-20230920-audit-and-assurance-committee-agenda-papers.pdf

That isn’t actually new info, the MD3142 paper has come up in this thread a couple of times before back in July when it was newly minted.

 

[fkofilee]

Dear Fkofilee



Further to our previous correspondence regarding the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, considering ending Day Travelcards, please see below the response my office has now received, after a number of follow-up emails, from the Deputy Mayor for Transport, Seb Dance;



Thank you for your email regarding your constituent’s concern at the withdrawal of Day Travelcards on the Transport for London (TfL) Network. As Deputy Mayor for Transport, I have been asked to respond on the on the Mayor’s behalf. I am sorry for the delay in responding to you.



It is a condition of TfL’s funding settlement with the Government – a deal that was required solely because of the impact of the pandemic – for TfL to deliver considerable savings and generate significant amounts of new additional income. The Mayor has been clear that the withdrawal of Day Travelcards is not something he would be considering were it not for the requirements of the funding deal.



The Mayor has now considered the proposal from TfL, an Equality Impact Assessment (EqIA) and the requirements under TfL’s funding settlement with the Government. After careful consideration, the Mayor has reluctantly instructed TfL to give the required minimum six months’ notice to withdraw from the relevant provisions of the Travelcard agreement. Further information can be found via the Mayoral Decision. The existing daily pay as you go caps on contactless or Oyster, which are used by the overwhelming majority of those travelling, will not be affected by this.



While this six-month process is now underway, it is important to note that this remains reversible and does not mean that Day Travelcards will be withdrawn. The Mayor and TfL are actively exploring all options with the Department for Transport, the Rail Delivery Group and the train operating companies, to consider if it is possible to reverse this decision while continuing to meet the requirements of the government funding agreement. We hope to be in a position to update on the outcome of these discussions in the autumn.



We would like to reassure you that while these discussions take place Day Travelcards will remain available for customers to purchase.



Thank you again for raising this important issue with the Mayor.



You may be interested to know that last month I launched a petition of Crawley residents urging the Mayor to scrap this damaging proposal. Further information including how to sign is available at: www.henrysmith.info/savethedaytravelcard



Please be assured of my continued attention.



Yours sincerely



Henry Smith MP

Crawley Constituency

 

[1D54]

Nothing being heard from TOCs, or anyone else, about any potential financial help towards the cost of keeping Travel Cards after given date in January so all hope is probably lost for these useful (for some of us) ways of getting around the capital.

 

[Mgameing123]

Nothing being heard from TOCs, or anyone else, about any potential financial help towards the cost of keeping Travel Cards after given date in January so all hope is probably lost for these useful (for some of us) ways of getting around the capital.

Yeah it's a shame how little this government cares about the railway or maybe even public transport in general. The buses get a £2 fare cap and the trains get fare increases.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah it's a shame how little this government cares about the railway or maybe even public transport in general. The buses get a £2 fare cap and the trains get fare increases.

For many use-cases it won't be a fare increase. Many who bought Anytime Day Travelcards by default without thinking will find the alternative cheaper.

 

[Parjon]

If it doesn't result in a fares increase in most cases then why would TfL bother withdrawing them. Of course it will cost more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it doesn't result in a fares increase in most cases then why would TfL bother withdrawing them. Of course it will cost more.

It will cost some people more (those hit hardest are Railcard holding enthusiasts, so the distaste for it here is entirely understandable). It won't cost everybody more, as many just buy a Travelcard by default when in fact a day return and two* contactless Tube or bus singles (or two Santander cycle trips) will cost less, particularly at peak times.

It also varies hugely as to what the mark-up for the Travelcard is - which is a point TfL was making - it really should be the same mark-up for everyone, and higher than it is in some cases, e.g. some South Coast ones barely cost a quid more (and then there's the Network Railcard minimum fare that sometimes makes it cost £0 extra). TfL are open to the Travelcard Agreement being changed so people pay more for it to close the revenue gap and allow it to be retained, but it seems DfT/RDG have no interest in that.

A Zone 1-2 PAYG cap is £8.10. I suspect TfL would be fine with it if the uplift for all passengers was maybe an undiscountable £6-7 or so (taking into account that many people buy them and only make two Zone 1 journeys on the Tube) and perhaps restricted to zone 1/2, but would they sell any if it were that high? It's very often quite a bit lower.

* The majority of people going to London are going to one place, e.g. the office or the theatre.

 

[Haywain]

If it doesn't result in a fares increase in most cases then why would TfL bother withdrawing them. Of course it will cost more.

It won't necessarily cost more - many people buy Travelcards for convenience and will find that the cost is reduced.