TfL to take over most, if not all London suburban services

[IKB]

I skim read the document. Lots of hot air in there.

Using existing LO routes (e.g. Richmond-Stratford) as a shining example of how TFL would transform south London commuter routes is wishful thinking IMO. That line in particular is pretty much a dedicated route.

South London on the other hand is a spaghetti breakfast that numerous pinch points and capacity issues. TFL would be faced with exactly the same issues as existing TOCs. The timetable is already rammed to capacity in many places.

It's hugely ironic, twenty years after the Tories privatised Network South East, we now have a Tory Mayor and a Tory Transport minister idolising the benefits of having a unified London commuter operator. Slowly we go full circle....

There is a wider issue about capacity here which stretches far beyond the railways. However much capacity you provide, people will eat it up. Lines which 15 years ago had an infrequent service now have regular peak time trains full and standing. The population of London grows by at least 100K every year. The extra capacity being provided as part of the Thameslink program (with extra and much longer trains) will itself be operating at capacity within 10-15 years. People will then be standing and complaining they 'don't have a seat' just as they do now. The railways will forever be playing catch-up.

At some point in the future capacity will be maxed out to such an extent that it won't be possible to run any more trains, to lengthen any more platforms or services. What then? It needs a serious long-term government led policy on population expansion in the south-east, of which housing and services will be a primary issues. London and the south-east is already slowly eating itself, with air quality and quality life in many places within the M25 already quite poor. Railway companies and politicians promising ever more extra capacity are simply heaping more fuel onto the fire.

 

[ijmad]

South London on the other hand is a spaghetti breakfast that numerous pinch points and capacity issues. TFL would be faced with exactly the same issues as existing TOCs. The timetable is already rammed to capacity in many places

What I wonder is if overall control by TfL could help untangle some of the SE London routes. A few things that might help pop in to my mind at least:

• More sensible interchange timings, for example, or interchanges involving London busses, trams or the tube valid on the same ticket.
• Trains being routed to a different terminal station than they have been historically to avoid pinch points, but your ticket being valid on the tube to get you where you need to go.
• Better management of disruption with more opportunities to divert trains via different routes, and use of London busses etc when things go awry.
• More sensible use of rolling stock during rush hour - trains can be swapped between routes that would previously have been run by separate TOCs

Just some thoughts anyway.

 

[ScotGG]

Some seem to think that changes that occurred on one TfL takeover will apply to others. Of course not. We know there's much difference in the operation of various areas.

But there are some things that can be uniformally applied. The DfT COULD have specified them. They didn't, so lets hope TfL do, and their record for doing so is very good. They are:

Staff at stations till the last trains. LO now feels FAR safer and welcoming and attracts those previously put off using public transport. The rapid rise in passengers shows this. Go on an LO train and see the wide demographic at 9pm. Go on some SE lines and see the narrow demographic, as no on-board staff nor at most stations results in intimidating stations and dodgy people hanging around at stations and on trains.

Publicity - TfL do a far better job at advertising lines and routes, helping alleviate road traffic. SE extended Victoria to Dartford services until midnight. Great news but they never tell anyone. Nothing on the website. Nothing at stations. And of course 90% of stations are unstaffed after 7pm anyway.

It's the kind of route that's half empty on SE. Give it to TfL and it will be much busier. It could also run at 3 tph instead of 2.

 

[IKB]

Some seem to think that changes that occurred on one TfL takeover will apply to others. Of course not. We know there's much difference in the operation of various areas.

But there are some things that can be uniformally applied. The DfT COULD have specified them. They didn't, so lets hope TfL do, and their record for doing so is very good. They are:

Staff at stations till the last trains. LO now feels FAR safer and welcoming and attracts those previously put off using public transport. The rapid rise in passengers shows this. Go on an LO train and see the wide demographic at 9pm. Go on some SE lines and see the narrow demographic, as no on-board staff nor at most stations results in intimidating stations and dodgy people hanging around at stations and on trains.

Publicity - TfL do a far better job at advertising lines and routes, helping alleviate road traffic. SE extended Victoria to Dartford services until midnight. Great news but they never tell anyone. Nothing on the website. Nothing at stations. And of course 90% of stations are unstaffed after 7pm anyway.

It's the kind of route that's half empty on SE. Give it to TfL and it will be much busier. It could also run at 3 tph instead of 2.

I hear you re staffing, but as you mention, if these have not been 'musts' required by the DFT, then TOCs will save costs by not doing it. Nobody likes DOO, but it saves money.

I've had experience of the late night clientele on SE. You are correct in what you say. Staffed ticket barriers at every station until the last train would improve things slightly, but even scum bags have Oyster cards.

What you're advocating could easily be provided for if DFT wanted it.

 

[jopsuk]

If you really wanted to make with the crayons, reroute (adding chords, grade sperating junctions etc where needed) the south London network so that all non-metro, non Thameslink south central services go to Victoria and all non-metro south east services go to London Bridge/Charing Cross/Cannon Street

 

[ScotGG]

I hear you re staffing, but as you mention, if these have not been 'musts' required by the DFT, then TOCs will save costs by not doing it. Nobody likes DOO, but it saves money.

I've had experience of the late night clientele on SE. You are correct in what you say. Staffed ticket barriers at every station until the last train would improve things slightly, but even scum bags have Oyster cards.

What you're advocating could easily be provided for if DFT wanted it.

I agree but the DfT just don't care. I don't see that changing. TfL is probably the only hope. It can't be worse.

I agree what you say about future long term capacity. More plans need speeding up for 10-20+ years. In the meantime there is still scope for 20% improvements in capacity. About 5% of peak Southeastern metro trains are 12 cars. Thta's a relatively cheap 'win' that needs enacting. TFL's record of sourcing additional stock post takeover bodes well they will do more to utilise longer trains in the near future. DfT could do the same but I have little faith in them.

 

[IKB]

I agree but the DfT just don't care. I don't see that changing. TfL is probably the only hope. It can't be worse.

I agree what you say about future long term capacity. More plans need speeding up for 10-20+ years. In the meantime there is still scope for 20% improvements in capacity. About 5% of peak Southeastern metro trains are 12 cars. Thta's a relatively cheap 'win' that needs enacting. TFL's record of sourcing additional stock post takeover bodes well they will do more to utilise longer trains in the near future. DfT could do the same but I have little faith in them.

Agree on the last point. It's not only at peak times either - its irritating when SE Saturday and Sunday services go down to 2 or 3tph on some routes yet are still only 4 carriages which are rammed full, often with families going shopping in the west end etc.

The stock also needs some serious TLC. The 465's inside are completely disgusting. The seats could get up and walk by themselves !

 

[A-driver]

What I wonder is if overall control by TfL could help untangle some of the SE London routes. A few things that might help pop in to my mind at least:

• More sensible interchange timings, for example, or interchanges involving London busses, trams or the tube valid on the same ticket.
  
• Trains being routed to a different terminal station than they have been historically to avoid pinch points, but your ticket being valid on the tube to get you where you need to go.
  
• Better management of disruption with more opportunities to divert trains via different routes, and use of London busses etc when things go awry.
  
• More sensible use of rolling stock during rush hour - trains can be swapped between routes that would previously have been run by separate TOCs
  

Just some thoughts anyway.

Won't really be as simple as that. Trains can already be diverted during disruption-from Moorgate to kings X, from Charing X-cannon street, from vic to London Bridge etc. Even if this led to one single big LO franchise (which it won't) they won't have more diversion options-they won't divert Moorgate trains into Euston etc-still have the same drivers signing routes and capacity/spare platforms and paths issues we have today.

As for stock, it certainly won't mean a uniform stock for all LO routes. Each route will have individual stock specific to its needs as it does now. For example, Moorgate will need far shorter trains than any other line complete with dual voltage capability. They wouldn't be able to borrow an 8 car unit from Waterloo in the evening peak as it wouldn't fit down the tunnels.

On most of those levels, this won't change anything from how it is now. Just that instead of the DfT pulling the strings it will be TfL. There will still be individual private operators running individual franchises.

 

[The Ham]

I agree but the DfT just don't care. I don't see that changing. TfL is probably the only hope. It can't be worse.

I agree what you say about future long term capacity. More plans need speeding up for 10-20+ years. In the meantime there is still scope for 20% improvements in capacity. About 5% of peak Southeastern metro trains are 12 cars. Thta's a relatively cheap 'win' that needs enacting. TFL's record of sourcing additional stock post takeover bodes well they will do more to utilise longer trains in the near future. DfT could do the same but I have little faith in them.

Given that southern is at least 5 years away from going over to TfL that means that 20% could disappear by then. (5 years of 3.7% would be 20%)

 

[jon0844]

I skim read the document. Lots of hot air in there.

Using existing LO routes (e.g. Richmond-Stratford) as a shining example of how TFL would transform south London commuter routes is wishful thinking IMO. That line in particular is pretty much a dedicated route.

I had to use the line twice today (Highbury & Islington to Stratford, and back, then back to Stratford a couple of hours later and back).

I have to say that while it all ran to time, it was bloody busy. What the heck is it like in the peaks? This was a Saturday - first run was around 10.45-12, second 'run' 1430-1700. All 5 car trains (I assume they all are now?).

I can't help but wonder how LO is going to look in 5 or 10 years time when populations continue to grow and usage keeps rocketing.

What can/will TfL be doing to make sure the honeymoon period doesn't end and it all becomes a misery line.

 

[Philip C]

Just a couple of comments about the 'success' of LO. Many of the lines currently converted are peripheral and attract ridiculously low fares as long journeys can be made within non-central zones. This will be less of a factor on the inner-suburban lines yet to be transferred to TfL 'control'.

In addition free travel is given to holders of Freedom Passes, including during the peaks. This is a recipe for a complete nonsense on already crowded peak-time services. It may be popular with some of the elderly, which may please some local politicians but, on a national scale, will lead to further diversion of resource to London projects to relieve the problems it causes.

It is said that much of infrastructure is paid for by London folk and companies. I point out that the profit made by so-called London-companies is largely made by selling the same products/services at the same prices to everyone (irrespective of where they live). As for the premiums paid to London folk (Weighting Allowances, bankers' bonuses) this is paid for by us all either through taxation or product price. I'm not blaming the individuals, not least as I benefited for many years from 'the system', merely pointing out that arguments based on local funding need much qualification.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Can many of the ELL stations have their platforms extended or would ASDO be needed to have longer trains?

 

[Skimble19]

I don't see what improvements tfl will be able to make to Moorgate services.. A lot of the stations are currently in the process of being staffed 24 hours, plus having gate lines fitted - those that aren't really do not need it (Welham Green anyone?!). New trains are now on the way and capacity is pretty much full without money that I just can't see them investing.

Am I missing something, but what can they actually do? Other than fragment the railway even further?

 

[Via Bank]

I don't see what improvements tfl will be able to make to Moorgate services.. A lot of the stations are currently in the process of being staffed 24 hours, plus having gate lines fitted - those that aren't really do not need it (Welham Green anyone?!). New trains are now on the way and capacity is pretty much full without money that I just can't see them investing.

Am I missing something, but what can they actually do? Other than fragment the railway even further?

Cleaning and presenting the stations and trains acceptably, contributing to an improved ambiance and an increased feeling of security; staffing stations with trained CSAs rather than clueless hired security goons; offering a simple-to-understand fares structure that can be represented as a two-dimensional table; and providing adequate customer care and information when things go wrong, so as to create a good passenger experience, leading to increased off-peak custom and fares revenue, and positive public perception?

Even accounting for the age of the rolling stock, one cannot deny that the Moorgate line is disgustingly presented - the trains and the stations are positively filthy, dingy environments, and I'd be astonished if the new trains stayed clean for very long. It's also a popular spot for tissue beggars. Even if it was the most reliable, most frequent railway in the world (which it isn't) the 'soft product' is extremely poor. This applies to a lot of Southeastern's routes too.

 

[jopsuk]

Can many of the ELL stations have their platforms extended or would ASDO be needed to have longer trains?

SDO is already being used for 5-car trains at some stations I think, and I think Canada Water, which is a very busy interchange, is one of them. Happy to be corrected. I think though there's still an active project investigating 6 car/120m train operation.

Regarding stock:

We've already seen that "unified stock" is not going to be an Overground thing. The new stock for WA/GOBLIN/Watford DC/Rominster is quite different to the existing 378s, and even then will have two distinct subfleets.

Moorgate and SW Windsor side have two different variants of the Desiro City on order. If LO/TfL took over those fleets would stay. Broadly, the rest of SW metro will be absorbed by Crossrail 2. A small follow-on order of Desiro City may be possible for SW.

The South East and South Central divisions will need decisions made about stock. SE Metro uses a mix of post-privitisation 376s and pre-Networkers. Refitting the Networkers to an outer-suburban spec and keeping them together in a revised SE franchise operating out of London wouldn't go amiss if new stock were ordered.

South Central has a mix of Fairly elderly 455s and Electrostars with an unsatisfactory "hybrid" layout. A full new fleet would allow the 455s to retire and the Electrostars to go to outer suburban use.

 

[450.emu]

So if I wanted to go from, say, St Pancras to Stevenage or Welwyn North (under the Thameslink programme) who would cover that?

I don't think they've thought this through... I think it's over ambitious - let's see improvements on the TfL Rail line and the Overground out of Liverpool Street first of all. And where's the money coming from? This is just Boris' last throw of the dice before he goes back to Parliament :P

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't see what improvements tfl will be able to make to Moorgate services.. A lot of the stations are currently in the process of being staffed 24 hours, plus having gate lines fitted - those that aren't really do not need it (Welham Green anyone?!).

I've had at look there with GE and SV. It looks just the right place for a mugger or rapist to hang out behind the trees in the car park. Why do you think it does not need supervision?

 

[swt_passenger]

Can many of the ELL stations have their platforms extended or would ASDO be needed to have longer trains?

Many can be extended. On the section south of New Cross Gate they nearly all are full length anyway. Some will require significant work, such as at Dalston Junction.

The important issue is the main interchange with the Jubilee line at Surrey Quays will be extremely difficult to extend due to the way it was originally built, and the adjacent gradients. This station has serious overcrowding now AIUI, and is not believed suitable for extended use of ASDO.

The two original stations either side of the Thames tunnel are also very difficult to extend - it is often suggested (and has been mentioned in TfL reports over the years) that Rotherhithe and Wapping would be more likely to close than undertake major work below ground.

 

[Class 170101]

I don't see what improvements tfl will be able to make to Moorgate services.. A lot of the stations are currently in the process of being staffed 24 hours, plus having gate lines fitted - those that aren't really do not need it (Welham Green anyone?!). New trains are now on the way and capacity is pretty much full without money that I just can't see them investing.

Am I missing something, but what can they actually do? Other than fragment the railway even further?

Personally I think TfL should extend Crossrail 2 services from New Southgate to Welwyn Garden City. This means the capacity used by Moorgate service to run to Welwyn can be diverted to the Hertford North branch with many 6 car trains per hour. Welwyn services can be lengthened as much as possible using 8+ car Crossrail 2 trains. Its easier to lengthen the platforms of surface stations than of the Underground stations.

 

[AM9]

i've had at look there with ge and sv. It looks just the right place for a mugger or rapist to hang out behind the trees in the car park. Why do you think it does not need supervision?

ge? Sv?

 

[ScotGG]

Given that southern is at least 5 years away from going over to TfL that means that 20% could disappear by then. (5 years of 3.7% would be 20%)

I was referring to Southeastern having a 20% capacity increase 'easy win' by running maximum trains for its platforms, not Southern.

I think Southeastern's growth is even bigger the past couple of years than Southern, so that 20% could be used up in 5 years or less too. Still, it has to happen at least as a stop gap, alongside some seat reductions like c2c and SWT have done.

Doesn't Southern have nailed on train lengthening plans to maximise platform lengths? Southeastern doesn't. Sure, some plans for more trains in franchise documents but it's still not signed off by the DfT, and I'm wary of them doing so. With TfL I'm less wary, though both have financial pressures.

 

[swt_passenger]

ge? Sv?

Google Earth and its Street View, I think...

 

[jopsuk]

Personally I think TfL should extend Crossrail 2 services from New Southgate to Welwyn Garden City. This means the capacity used by Moorgate service to run to Welwyn can be diverted to the Hertford North branch with many 6 car trains per hour. Welwyn services can be lengthened as much as possible using 8+ car Crossrail 2 trains. Its easier to lengthen the platforms of surface stations than of the Underground stations.

On the draft plans that simply isn't going to happen. CR2 is going to surface to the east of the existing lines, the new platforms will be to the east, and the new depot north of the station. If there's any rail connection here it'll basically be for engineering trains. What you suggest would need an additional tunnel to bring northbound CR2 trains to the west of the existing lines and into the down slow platform. This would also mean an underground junction between that flyunder and the track into the CR2 terminating platform/depot.

And CR2 trains are likely to be 200m/10 car.

 

[AM9]

Google Earth and its Street View, I think...

Given that you aren't sure and neither of those are normally accepted abbreviations, I think that the poster should explain what they are as per forum rules.

 

[Skimble19]

I'll reply to each point..

Cleaning and presenting the stations and trains acceptably,

The trains and stations are being cleaned and many are considerably improved from FCC - yes there's some way to go (a lot at certain stations, I'll grant you) but by 2021 it will definitely be done. The trains will all be brand new..

contributing to an improved ambiance and an increased feeling of security

Lovely words, but do please explain how changing the name will do that?

staffing stations with trained CSAs rather than clueless hired security goons

Already being done, most stations that are now 24hr have been done and the remaining ones are being recruited at the moment.

offering a simple-to-understand fares structure that can be represented as a two-dimensional table

Again lovely words but please explain how this will work in reality to improve things for anyone..

and providing adequate customer care and information when things go wrong, so as to create a good passenger experience, leading to increased off-peak custom and fares revenue, and positive public perception?

Already happens at a lot of places and those that it doesn't I'm sure will be fixed by 2021.

Even accounting for the age of the rolling stock, one cannot deny that the Moorgate line is disgustingly presented - the trains and the stations are positively filthy, dingy environments, and I'd be astonished if the new trains stayed clean for very long. It's also a popular spot for tissue beggars. Even if it was the most reliable, most frequent railway in the world (which it isn't) the 'soft product' is extremely poor.

This is largely just nonsense, but RE: the tissue beggars, they've more or less moved on but any that remain I'm pretty sure will be gone by 2021.


So, have you got any more *actual* reasons or just more TFL PR guff?

I've had at look there with GE and SV. It looks just the right place for a mugger or rapist to hang out behind the trees in the car park. Why do you think it does not need supervision?

I'm sure you could find spots like that at every single station - but the muggers and rapists can far more easily get you just down the road from the station, where there is no CCTV let alone "staff".

 

[JaJaWa]

The trains and stations are being cleaned and many are considerably improved from FCC - yes there's some way to go (a lot at certain stations, I'll grant you) but by 2021 it will definitely be done.

So, have you got any more *actual* reasons or just more TFL PR guff?

Name one train operating company other than TfL that would sort this mess out?

And I don't mean adding a bit of pink paint to the entrance.

 

[A-driver]

Name one train operating company other than TfL that would sort this mess out?

And I don't mean adding a bit of pink paint to the entrance.

It looks no worse than most tube stations. I can't see TfL doing too much to it-they arnt going to be throwing money around.

 

[jon0844]

What's wrong with that? These stations were refreshed not that long ago. Cleaned surfaces, new tiles in places, brand new lighting (and cleaned diffusers that were filthy).

At HHY yesterday, there were a lot of people waiting for a train so it seems the weekend services are proving very popular. I did notice the wall at the northernmost end of the platform was particularly dirty though. Not sure why?

Besides that, I don't see a problem. People just want the trains to run on time and not be too packed. I was glad the trains were 6 car even on Saturday. Hopefully they are on Sunday too?

The TfL plans for this route don't appear that significant. New signalling and maybe a slight increase in frequency, but no mention of major works.

 

[Skimble19]

Not the best of photos and not particularly recent either based on the posters on the wall.. Whilst I agree the tunnel walls could do with a clean the actual stations aren't exactly "dirty".. As A-Driver says above, it's not much different to a typical tube station with similar usage, and I'm sorry but I just can't see TfL coming in and splashing unlimited cash at places like that for very little reason.

 

[MikeWh]

Name one train operating company other than TfL that would sort this mess out?

And I don't mean adding a bit of pink paint to the entrance.

I reckon TfL will probably get rid of the NSE branding though.