TfL to take over most, if not all London suburban services

[HowardGWR]

Given that you aren't sure and neither of those are normally accepted abbreviations, I think that the poster should explain what they are as per forum rules.

Apologies, I thought they were. BTW (by the way) how is one supposed to know? They are normal to me.

I'm sure you could find spots like that at every single station - but the muggers and rapists can far more easily get you just down the road from the station, where there is no CCTV let alone "staff".

Yes, but that would not be TfL's fault would it?

 

[Skimble19]

Apologies, I thought they were. BTW (by the way) how is one supposed to know? They are normal to me.



Yes, but that would not be TfL's fault would it?

I'm not really sure how you could class it as their fault anyway? On this basis, shall we staff every single station in the country, on the off chance that a mugger might hide in a tree in the back of the car park? Whilst it would be lovely to have staff at every single halt its just not viable..

 

[HowardGWR]

I'm not really sure how you could class it as their fault anyway? On this basis, shall we staff every single station in the country, on the off chance that a mugger might hide in a tree in the back of the car park? Whilst it would be lovely to have staff at every single halt its just not viable..

No but this thread is about TfL. I know they have some remote stations too. Arguably this is a location where the last train should always see a constable turn up, just every now and then.

 

[Skimble19]

No but this thread is about TfL. I know they have some remote stations too. Arguably this is a location where the last train should always see a constable turn up, just every now and then.

BTP do patrol the stations in the evenings and at night, and the new Rail Enforcement Officers will be out and about on GN in a few months too.

I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing what difference TfL will make in this regard, there just isn't a viable case for staff there... If it got to a point where muggings etc were taking place I'm sure it would be reviewed but staffing can't be justified without evidence of it being needed sadly, especially at a station with such low usage.

 

[HowardGWR]

BTP do patrol the stations in the evenings and at night, and the new Rail Enforcement Officers will be out and about on GN in a few months too.

I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing what difference TfL will make in this regard, there just isn't a viable case for staff there... If it got to a point where muggings etc were taking place I'm sure it would be reviewed but staffing can't be justified without evidence of it being needed sadly, especially at a station with such low usage.

Good to hear that, thanks.

 

[IKB]

For my two cents worth, as someone who used to serve ER and wear a pointed hat, having staff at stations is no guarantee of safety and certainly wouldn't deter those intent on causing trouble. Times have changed. People are no longer scared of authority. On numerous occasions I've had people openly commit offences right in front of me and think nothing of it. Alcohol is obviously an aggravating factor. A staff member on a gateline might prevent some low level anti-social behaviour, but for those who are very pi**ed or simply intent on causing trouble, that staff member will be seen as an inconvenience to get around, with violence if necessary. I don't like to sound overly pessimistic, but that's just my experience. Staffed stations and gatelines are great and provide some reassurance to late night travellers (which is obviously important for peace of mind) but as an actual deterrent for trouble makers, the south London clientele really wouldn't even factor it into their thinking.

Anyway, back to TFL.....!

 

[petersi]

The TfL plans for this route don't appear that significant. New signalling and maybe a slight increase in frequency, but no mention of major works.

The Moorgate lines where to first part of the ECML ERTMS re signalling project. If this goes ahead in Cp6 it will happen any way nothing to do with TFL

 

[HarleyDavidson]

There's a lot of stations on my own patch that I as a member of staff wouldn't feel safe on either during the day or evening!

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the extension of the Bakerloo to Lewisham and Hayes (Kent), I feel that having 2 branches may introduce some unreliability in the service.

After all, I believe that the Bakerloo Line previously had a spell of having 2 branches, when the Stanmore branch of the Metropolitan Railway was transferred to the Bakerloo. This seemingly worked well for a while, until when there was congestion at Baker Street - the same problem that affected the MR. As we are all aware, the Stanmore branch was transferred to (and remains part of) the Fleet/Jubilee Line today, which is totally separate from both the MR and Bakerloo lines.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

http://www.citymetric.com/transport...ost-londons-rail-network-says-government-1765

This article disagrees stating St. Albans and Luton will go to TfL control. St. Albans isn't as far out of London as welwyn or Hertford and Stevenage will have to be TfL to as they wont fit any other operators trains round there to serve Watton. So if Stevenage is part of TfL then I can't see why Luton wouldn't be.

If TFL are after quick and 'easy' wins, surely the service ripe for it is converting the Sutton loop, doubling the capacity by having it terminate at Blackfriars.
IIRC all the timetabling has already been done, and they wouldn't have to listen to an MP who speaks for no-one/the minority of people on only part of the route. How that decision was ever reached needs serious investigation

 

[AM9]

If TFL are after quick and 'easy' wins, surely the service ripe for it is converting the Sutton loop, doubling the capacity by having it terminate at Blackfriars.
IIRC all the timetabling has already been done, and they wouldn't have to listen to an MP who speaks for no-one/the minority of people on only part of the route. How that decision was ever reached needs serious investigation

Whatever the impact on overall Thameslink capacity, running the sutton loop services through the core did reduce the notional total No. of class 700 cars required by replacing some 12-car sets with 8-car ones. Maybe the up-front saving was too tempting so any asessment of the real cost of such a change was quietly forgotten.

 

[infobleep]

Cleaning and presenting the stations and trains acceptably, contributing to an improved ambiance and an increased feeling of security; staffing stations with trained CSAs rather than clueless hired security goons; offering a simple-to-understand fares structure that can be represented as a two-dimensional table; and providing adequate customer care and information when things go wrong, so as to create a good passenger experience, leading to increased off-peak custom and fares revenue, and positive public perception?

Even accounting for the age of the rolling stock, one cannot deny that the Moorgate line is disgustingly presented - the trains and the stations are positively filthy, dingy environments, and I'd be astonished if the new trains stayed clean for very long. It's also a popular spot for tissue beggars. Even if it was the most reliable, most frequent railway in the world (which it isn't) the 'soft product' is extremely poor. This applies to a lot of Southeastern's routes too.

They already need to improve them the fare information they give out. The single fare finder does not tell you what the default route is.

There are times where the route that always come back, when during a travel search, is not the default route. You need to specify the correct interchanges to get the default route but how can you do that when you don't know what the default route is!

Why is the default route not the one that comes back most often in the journey planner anyway?

So TfL already need to make improvements but I can't see them doing them anytime soon. Surely the same will apply to some of the lines they take over.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Name one train operating company other than TfL that would sort this mess out?

And I don't mean adding a bit of pink paint to the entrance.

There is a solution. Simply make it a heritage station and then the fixtures and fittings can remain for historical purposes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a lot of stations on my own patch that I as a member of staff wouldn't feel safe on either during the day or evening!

Care to name them or at least the lines they fall on?

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't think they've thought this through... I think it's over ambitious - let's see improvements on the TfL Rail line and the Overground out of Liverpool Street first of all. And where's the money coming from? This is just Boris' last throw of the dice before he goes back to Parliament :P

TfL Rail will soon be replaced by Crossrail. If that's not an improvement I don't know what is.

 

[Envy123]

As someone who commutes on the ECML locals:

-Stations are not very publicised. The ECML locals are not on the tube map and I see rammed trains on the Piccadilly Line, while GN trains are relatively quiet.
-GN stations are poorly positioned compared to their Piccadilly neighbouring stations.
-Stations outside of London have more trains per hour to London (Potters Bar, Hatfield, WGC...etc), ironically enough.

Plus sides:

+The stations look better than Moscow's suburban rail stations.
+I've seen more tissue beggars on the tube lately than on GN.
+I feel safe in New Southgate at night.

I don't think TfL can magically fix the negatives, except for the first one.

 

[ScotGG]

GN stations are woefully advertised in some cases. You can barely make out the signs or station entrances. Such small things to get right. TfL would put up a big roundel, light it up, a big sign and make locals aware a station exists. With such a transient population in many areas many don't even know about stations and lines.

 

[BRX]

If TFL are after quick and 'easy' wins, surely the service ripe for it is converting the Sutton loop, doubling the capacity by having it terminate at Blackfriars.
IIRC all the timetabling has already been done, and they wouldn't have to listen to an MP who speaks for no-one/the minority of people on only part of the route. How that decision was ever reached needs serious investigation

I agree - the campaign to keep the through services was misled. Every time I get to the station and see several loop services cancelled I am reminded of this. I'd be very pleased to see it run as a self contained TfL route.

 

[A-driver]

GN stations are woefully advertised in some cases. You can barely make out the signs or station entrances. Such small things to get right. TfL would put up a big roundel, light it up, a big sign and make locals aware a station exists. With such a transient population in many areas many don't even know about stations and lines.

I really don't think it's an issue! Those trains are packed in the peaks.

Plus I don't think railways get much passing trade really-people don't exactly walk around and think 'oh look, a station. Perhaps I'll go and catch a train somewhere'!

 

[Clip]

I really don't think it's an issue! Those trains are packed in the peaks.

Plus I don't think railways get much passing trade really-people don't exactly walk around and think 'oh look, a station. Perhaps I'll go and catch a train somewhere'!

Exactly. They suffer from the problem on the ELL too - just go look at Penge West - you really wouldnt know its there unless you knew it was there. And its dark and dingy around there too at night so that part of the argument falls down too.

 

[LLivery]

GN stations are woefully advertised in some cases. You can barely make out the signs or station entrances. Such small things to get right. TfL would put up a big roundel, light it up, a big sign and make locals aware a station exists. With such a transient population in many areas many don't even know about stations and lines.

Make locals aware a station exists? How do we survive in South London then? Putney had a usage of 11 million - double East Putney tube. Penge West (6tph Overground/Southern) has a lower usage than Penge East (4tph Southeastern). The SWT suburban stations apart from North Sheen, Berrylands, Strawberry Hill as well as the Shepperton, Chessington & Hampton Court branches have high-very high usage. As did the Shenfield Metro before TfL operation. If the frequency and population is there then the passengers will be.

The idea that somehow TfL are going to make usage rocket on SW, SC and SE routes is frankly silly. South London knows they are there, we rely on them. The former Silverlink lines were in a awful state, but usage was growing. No doubt TfL helped grow them further, but the very nature of the areas have changed and they were able to increase frequencies, something broadly speaking, they won't be able to do in South London. Remember the NLL was already on the tube map!

 

[Envy123]

GN stations are woefully advertised in some cases. You can barely make out the signs or station entrances. Such small things to get right. TfL would put up a big roundel, light it up, a big sign and make locals aware a station exists. With such a transient population in many areas many don't even know about stations and lines.

Agreed.

Currently, GN is my road less travelled to avoid the crowds, but I also see the general struggles to get home from the City and West End from other people.

I really don't think it's an issue! Those trains are packed in the peaks.

Plus I don't think railways get much passing trade really-people don't exactly walk around and think 'oh look, a station. Perhaps I'll go and catch a train somewhere'!

Not as packed as the Piccadilly Line trains. I sometimes have to resort to using GN at times when the Piccadilly Line is so rammed with people that I have to let 3 trains pass by before I can get on.

And knowledge of alternative routes help immensely during times of disruption. My mother didn't even know the existence of New Southgate until I told her when the Piccadilly Line was part suspended, and she had to be at work in the West End in an hour. She got there with plenty of time to spare, which wouldn't have been possible if I wasn't a rail enthusiast.

However, I can see your point. Without more capacity and more frequent trains, the disadvantages could outweigh the advantages. I still don't see how TfL could vastly improve the GN line when the DfT sets service frequencies and Moorgate has a certain capacity. And bus routes to GN stations are less good than their tube stations.

So while ideally, I would love the load to be spread between the Piccadilly and GN lines, as a GN commuter, there are indeed lots of hurdles to overcome for that to happen.

 

[A-driver]

Agreed.

Currently, GN is my road less travelled to avoid the crowds, but I also see the general struggles to get home from the City and West End from other people.



Not as packed as the Piccadilly Line trains. I sometimes have to resort to using GN at times when the Piccadilly Line is so rammed with people that I have to let 3 trains pass by before I can get on.

And knowledge of alternative routes help immensely during times of disruption. My mother didn't even know the existence of New Southgate until I told her when the Piccadilly Line was part suspended, and she had to be at work in the West End in an hour. She got there with plenty of time to spare, which wouldn't have been possible if I wasn't a rail enthusiast.

However, I can see your point. Without more capacity and more frequent trains, the disadvantages could outweigh the advantages. I still don't see how TfL could vastly improve the GN line when the DfT sets service frequencies and Moorgate has a certain capacity. And bus routes to GN stations are less good than their tube stations.

The DfT won't be setting service frequencies though. That is what TfL will be taking over.

 

[Envy123]

The DfT won't be setting service frequencies though. That is what TfL will be taking over.

Really? Thanks for telling me.

Still, Moorgate has a fixed capacity. Not sure whether TfL could increase the capacity so that more trains could run. Having commuted on the line for several years, I don't quite see how it could be possible.

 

[The Ham]

The idea that somehow TfL are going to make usage rocket on SW, SC and SE routes is frankly silly. South London knows they are there, we rely on them. The former Silverlink lines were in a awful state, but usage was growing. No doubt TfL helped grow them further, but the very nature of the areas have changed and they were able to increase frequencies, something broadly speaking, they won't be able to do in South London. Remember the NLL was already on the tube map!

I agree that there is a big difference between what has happened on the current LO services (a five fold increase in passengers in about 9 years) and what is likely to be happen on the lines south of the Thames.

However, as an example, the Wessex Route Study had assumed that passenger growth would be about 40% over a 32 year period (2011 to 2043). Even without TfL making significant changes, it is possible for rail growth to be higher than this (as an example Richmond - network rail station - has seen between 2011 and 2014 passenger growth of about 13.5% or in other words in just 3 years it has seen about 1/3 of the total growth expected for a time period 10 times longer). Therefore there is a risk that combining this higher than expected growth and TfL making improvements (such as increasing frequencies, even if it is just on branch lines to connect with other services) that rail growth could be significantly higher than has previously be "designed" for.

If this were to happen then there could be the risk that TfL would look to using capacity that they create (i.e. Crossrail 2) to further strengthen the metro services at the expense of longer distance services by giving to the Metro services (probably on some of) the extra paths which are currently assumed to be used by long distance services.

 

[deltic]

Turning south London orange Centre for London campaign sets out some £12bn worth of upgrades and new links in south London to match rail accessibility levels in north London - it includes new stations or platforms at Battersea, Beddington, Brockley, Clapham east, Camberwell, Clapham High Street, Streatham Hub, Tooting St Georges.

TfL/GLA recogonise there will be no Treasury funding for such an upgrade and will be looking for private sector investment to make it happen.

Full details can be found http://centreforlondon.org/publicat...-rail-to-support-londons-next-wave-of-growth/

 

[jopsuk]

Note that the Centre For London (which is a thinktank) report was published before the TfL/DfT Prospectus AND is focused solely on the South Central (Southern) division.

 

[jon0844]

I really don't think it's an issue! Those trains are packed in the peaks.

Plus I don't think railways get much passing trade really-people don't exactly walk around and think 'oh look, a station. Perhaps I'll go and catch a train somewhere'!

Most stations along the ECML on GN have very bright lighting (if not now, soon, of the LED type). I think the platforms feel a lot safer now as a result.

The issue is that the station name signs are quite widely spaced out, often not under the lighting. And there's no lower roundel signs that can be seen by people standing on a busy 313 who won't see the signs anyway as they're too high.

If course all the new trains should have a fully working and reliable PIS (I hope!) so I don't think we need TfL taking over to fix this issue.

As it stands, if someone is confused they usually ask other passengers who will say what station it is - although often they're not sure either!

 

[A-driver]

Most stations along the ECML on GN have very bright lighting (if not now, soon, of the LED type). I think the platforms feel a lot safer now as a result.

The issue is that the station name signs are quite widely spaced out, often not under the lighting. And there's no lower roundel signs that can be seen by people standing on a busy 313 who won't see the signs anyway as they're too high.

If course all the new trains should have a fully working and reliable PIS (I hope!) so I don't think we need TfL taking over to fix this issue.

As it stands, if someone is confused they usually ask other passengers who will say what station it is - although often they're not sure either!

The poster was refers g to advertising station names on the street so passing drivers/pedestrians see it and think "hmm, I think I'll catch a train to somewhere".

 

[HarleyDavidson]

There's a simple method for dealing with a wayward PIS. And that's PIS off.

 

[jon0844]

The poster was refers g to advertising station names on the street so passing drivers/pedestrians see it and think "hmm, I think I'll catch a train to somewhere".

I think I replied to the wrong comment. But, you're right that most people don't see a train station and just decide to go somewhere random!

(Plus there are many LUL stations that aren't easily found. Brent Cross is one such example, but there are many more). I don't see an issue, as these days anyone doing route planning on something like Google Maps can easily find the stations/bus stops.

 

[urpert]

Turning south London orange Centre for London campaign sets out some £12bn worth of upgrades and new links in south London to match rail accessibility levels in north London - it includes new stations or platforms at Battersea, Beddington, Brockley, Clapham east, Camberwell, Clapham High Street, Streatham Hub, Tooting St Georges.

TfL/GLA recogonise there will be no Treasury funding for such an upgrade and will be looking for private sector investment to make it happen.

Full details can be found http://centreforlondon.org/publicat...-rail-to-support-londons-next-wave-of-growth/

That was an interesting read, if occasionally a little crayonista-happy (new tunnels Streatham Hill - Streatham Common and Norwood Jn - Kent House!)