TfL to take over most, if not all London suburban services

[LLivery]

The Mayor has today published the TfL business case for taking over more suburban rail services. This is a pretty substantive document, 99 pages, with costs, benefits, extra train numbers and future service patterns and frequencies all set out. The investment needed to support the improved services is also set out. This has gone to the DfT so it looks like something is going on - there is also a pretty decent list of supporters and supporting letters.

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rail-devolution-business-case-narrative.pdf

I know the forum rule is to cut and paste the document but 99 pages is rather too much so I hope I can be excused from breaking the rule on this occasion. Here is the summary.

Interesting how it basically ignored the South West Lines. Zero speak of the SW stations, services, rolling stock, anything really.

 

[ScotGG]

I agree in these areas london overground did make big improvements overall but the mayor's office assertions that allowing LO to take over all inner suburban services is going to mean no trains break down, no signals fail and capacity is going to double are just unrealistic. A tfl rail integrated inner suburban network is a good idea but they need to manage expectations because changing the operator cannot solve all the daily issues that hamper a good train service.

No one ever said those things such as no train will ever break down.

Why do opponents (flying in the face of masses of evidence) often come out with things like this to try to make it seem a bad idea?

No one ever expects no break downs or failures - they hope on Southeastern and the like that these things can be reduced as they clearly have elsewhere.

 

[Clip]

No one ever said those things such as no train will ever break down.

Why do opponents (flying in the face of masses of evidence) often come out with things like this to try to make it seem a bad idea?

No one ever expects no break downs or failures - they hope on Southeastern and the like that these things can be reduced as they clearly have elsewhere.

Well the mayor has said he will improve reliability

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...sadiq-khan-submits-plan-improve-rail-services

Rail passengers will finally get the same standard of service and reliability they get on the tube.

Ive seen no promises of brand new trains or infrastructure so with the same trains running on the same congested track for the first 5(?) years it will be interesting how he can manage this.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting how it basically ignored the South West Lines. Zero speak of the SW stations, services, rolling stock, anything really.

Probably waiting for a Crossrail 2 go ahead. Until that is made it might still be difficult to pin down which routes transfer where, and what the TOC would be retaining.

They've also previously said they cannot get organised quickly enough to take on SWT, the franchise renewal is imminent; so I don't think lack of hard info about the SWT network is that surprising...

 

[HH]

What is a mess? Surely they are on board managers rather than guards as they have no door opening and closing duties? What are they supposed to know about their train that they don't know?

Doesn't matter what they are called. They don't know where the train is actually going, because it keeps changing en route and their workings show what the Public TT shows. What actually happens is that the train goes on a big loop, but how it's announced depends on which station you catch it - it changes around 3 times en route.

 

[plcd1]

Probably waiting for a Crossrail 2 go ahead. Until that is made it might still be difficult to pin down which routes transfer where, and what the TOC would be retaining.

They've also previously said they cannot get organised quickly enough to take on SWT, the franchise renewal is imminent; so I don't think lack of hard info about the SWT network is that surprising...

A "final" route and station decision and, I think, a further consultation phase is imminent on Crossrail 2. This explains the lack of comment about South West services as you need CR2 to set the longer term framework and then you can infill as to what SWT (Gtr London) would look like under TfL stewardship including any capital works that may be needed. The trick there is to identify works solely needed for (enhanced) services into Waterloo and those which could be beneficial to CR2 and determining the timing of what you do and when and who pays. I suspect that's a big job all on its own.

 

[MikeWh]

whenever I see staffing mentioned from first to last trains I wonder about knockholt.

And Sundridge Park:cry:

Not sure about Knockholt, but I'd say Sundridge Park may be staffed in the same way as Emerson Park - i.e. a staff member gets off the train to assist anyone needing help and then gets back on.

 

[Goldfish62]

Takes more than 15 months to buy and build new trains. This is what the first overground trains looked like a few years after launch, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k8sivCsFT...U/P_oH7GsFGww/s1600/313103_at_Stratford_2.jpg

The latest image I've seen now has an orange front, in keeping with the standard TfL rail vehicle livery design.

 

[theironroad]

No one ever said those things such as no train will ever break down.

Why do opponents (flying in the face of masses of evidence) often come out with things like this to try to make it seem a bad idea?

No one ever expects no break downs or failures - they hope on Southeastern and the like that these things can be reduced as they clearly have elsewhere.

Fact check - I'm not an opponent and haven't said it's a bad idea. I've said above the improvements that LO brought in were good.

The way it is being sold to the travelling public at large is that it is a panacea for all the problems in the current franchises. I hope that if tfl get South Eastern routes as a start it all works out well, but the travelling public's expectations need to be managed realistically.

 

[ComUtoR]

The way it is being sold to the travelling public at large is that it is a panacea for all the problems in the current franchises. I hope that if tfl get South Eastern routes as a start it all works out well, but the travelling public's expectations need to be managed realistically.

I'm on my 3rd franchise change I think and not once has it made a difference.

There is always a huge public perception that any new franchise will lead to less cancellations and better customer service.

TfL seem to have a good PR department

 

[HowardGWR]

I'm on my 3rd franchise change I think and not once has it made a difference.

There is always a huge public perception that any new franchise will lead to less cancellations and better customer service.

TfL seem to have a good PR department

I don't know about fewer cancellations but just calling it London Transport again would be a service to simple English.☺

 

[ScotGG]

The way it is being sold to the travelling public at large is that it is a panacea for all the problems in the current franchises. I hope that if tfl get South Eastern routes as a start it all works out well, but the travelling public's expectations need to be managed realistically.

Sold as a panacea by who exactly though? People I know don't expect the earth and TfL are very clear they can't upgrade peak frequencies. They keep pointing that out. They also point out things that are feasible and more than possible which will bring real improvements and which the DfT wont do if the past is any guide.

Maybe rubbish rags like the Standard do claim the earth but they talk rubbish about most subjects and many know it.
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I'm on my 3rd franchise change I think and not once has it made a difference.

There is always a huge public perception that any new franchise will lead to less cancellations and better customer service.

TfL seem to have a good PR department

The third franchise that the DfT have let? That's your answer. The DfT couldn't care less about SE Metro on the whole.

 

[physics34]

i like the ideas in that document to put sidings in at Wallington, Cheam (where there is space avaliable) and double track the Epsom Downs line as far as Belmont to provide 4 trains an hour down there.

All good schemes which couldve been done years ago.

 

[Antman]

Fact check - I'm not an opponent and haven't said it's a bad idea. I've said above the improvements that LO brought in were good.

The way it is being sold to the travelling public at large is that it is a panacea for all the problems in the current franchises. I hope that if tfl get South Eastern routes as a start it all works out well, but the travelling public's expectations need to be managed realistically.

Absolutely spot on, the way this has been overhyped is just ridiculous.

 

[ComUtoR]

The third franchise that the DfT have let? That's your answer. The DfT couldn't care less about SE Metro on the whole.

No. I've worked for 3 different franchises since starting as a Driver. Nothing changes other than the name on my payslip. Same problems, different TOC.

 

[Monty]

Interesting how it basically ignored the South West Lines. Zero speak of the SW stations, services, rolling stock, anything really.

Probably because it's too late to include them in any TfL takeover, The SW franchise competition has been on going for a while now and both First and Stagecoach would have made their bids on the understanding the metro routes would still be a part of it.

 

[matt_world2004]

Well the mayor has said he will improve reliability

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...sadiq-khan-submits-plan-improve-rail-services

[/quote]

Improving reliability is not the same as eliminating breakdowns completely

Ive seen no promises of brand new trains or infrastructure so with the same trains running on the same congested track for the first 5(?) years it will be interesting how he can manage this.

Skimming through the reports there is the discussion of implementing some turnback sidings on the routes , plus I imagine the stations will be deep cleaned and if they are not replacing the rolling stock. their internal configuration changed to better suit metro operation

 

[Sunset route]

Skimming through the reports there is the discussion of implementing some turnback sidings on the routes , plus I imagine the stations will be deep cleaned and if they are not replacing the rolling stock. their internal configuration changed to better suit metro operation

They will need to get in quickly with these turn back sidings plans for Wallington and Cheam as NR and Seimans have already signed the contract for the re-signalling and migration of the Sutton area (Victoria ASC panel 4) to TBROC to be commissioned Spring 2018. Not saying it can't be done afterwards just the price tends to rise nicely.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Probably because it's too late to include them in any TfL takeover, The SW franchise competition has been on going for a while now and both First and Stagecoach would have made their bids on the understanding the metro routes would still be a part of it.

That's what the TfL report says and talks of a later transfer of the listed SW lines in the report.

Although the report lists SW, SC and GN lines for transfer as well as the SE ones, it is the SE lines that the report majors on as they see those as the ones that could transfer first.

Although Grayling and Khan have "form" as opposing each other and the business case exercise is seen as a DfT "bar raising" ploy, the amount of public and political support for transfer is almost overwheming. Normally sceptical Conservative County Councils are now on board and that will play.

 

[Goldfish62]

Probably because it's too late to include them in any TfL takeover, The SW franchise competition has been on going for a while now and both First and Stagecoach would have made their bids on the understanding the metro routes would still be a part of it.

The ITT mentioned that bidders should take into account the possibility of TfL becoming more closely involved in running some of the services in the future, so any bidder who hasn't taken this into account will be marked down in the evaluation.

 

[Monty]

The ITT mentioned that bidders should take into account the possibility of TfL becoming more closely involved in running some of the services in the future, so any bidder who hasn't taken this into account will be marked down in the evaluation.

That's different from being told they should expect to have some routes removed from them mid franchise though.

 

[Robertj21a]

That's different from being told they should expect to have some routes removed from them mid franchise though.

If they're committing £m's to the necessary research and hard graft needed to prepare their final submissions then I'd be amazed if they hadn't considered ALL likely permutations throughout the life of the new franchise.

 

[HH]

If they're committing £m's to the necessary research and hard graft needed to prepare their final submissions then I'd be amazed if they hadn't considered ALL likely permutations throughout the life of the new franchise.

No need to. If the Metro is removed then it will be Change and they will be compensated. It would be seen as an opportunity...

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The ITT mentioned that bidders should take into account the possibility of TfL becoming more closely involved in running some of the services in the future, so any bidder who hasn't taken this into account will be marked down in the evaluation.

I would simply expect bidders to make some nice noises about working with TfL. They know that if TfL want changes then they'll have to pay for them. It's an opportunity...

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Probably because it's too late to include them in any TfL takeover, The SW franchise competition has been on going for a while now and both First and Stagecoach would have made their bids on the understanding the metro routes would still be a part of it.

It's an opportunity lost; most probably by the DfT, who are losing part of their 'empire'. The franchise would, IMO, have been more attractive to potential bidders if they were going to lose the Metro and they may have gotten more than two bidders. It's too big as it stands; it's no coincidence that First & MTR bid this jointly.

 

[Goldfish62]

That's different from being told they should expect to have some routes removed from them mid franchise though.

You are not serious, surely.

 

[hwl]

No need to. If the Metro is removed then it will be Change and they will be compensated. It would be seen as an opportunity...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I would simply expect bidders to make some nice noises about working with TfL. They know that if TfL want changes then they'll have to pay for them. It's an opportunity...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's an opportunity lost; most probably by the DfT, who are losing part of their 'empire'. The franchise would, IMO, have been more attractive to potential bidders if they were going to lose the Metro and they may have gotten more than two bidders. It's too big as it stands; it's no coincidence that First & MTR bid this jointly.

Exactly just as TfL paid Southern to improve late night and Sunday services in the post 2009 franchise. Which would be very popular with SWT metro passengers if TfL were to do the same there with better service levels after 2030 week days for example. An nice opportunity for some incremental revenue outside the DfT envelope for the winner.

 

[matt_world2004]

Exactly just as TfL paid Southern to improve late night and Sunday services in the post 2009 franchise. Which would be very popular with SWT metro passengers if TfL were to do the same there with better service levels after 2030 week days for example. An nice opportunity for some incremental revenue outside the DfT envelope for the winner.

why should tfl pay a private company to run a train service if it is getting none of the ticket revenue from that service.

 

[ScotGG]

Get on and approve the Southeastern Metro transfer already.

It's overwhelmingly supported by all sides. Christ the DfT are holding back SE London and areas of Kent near London.

 

[Barn]

why should tfl pay a private company to run a train service if it is getting none of the ticket revenue from that service.

Presumably the ticket revenue was thought insufficient to fully meet the costs of the service, but you would hope that the expected revenue was offset against those costs to decrease the subsidy payable by TfL.

 

[Antman]

Get on and approve the Southeastern Metro transfer already.

It's overwhelmingly supported by all sides. Christ the DfT are holding back SE London and areas of Kent near London.

Supported by those with unrealistic expectations? Signal failures, points failures, leaves on the line and broken down freight trains aren't all going to suddenly become things of the past.

 

[TrenHotel]

Supported by those with unrealistic expectations? Signal failures, points failures, leaves on the line and broken down freight trains aren't all going to suddenly become things of the past.

Crummy unstaffed stations, howlingly bad customer communications, lousy evening and Sunday service levels and a fare structure that penalises south Londoners for switching from rail to tube, however, may be.