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TFW December 2023 Timetable changes

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Bletchleyite

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An admission that a lot is going to be 2-car, and thus a very significant capacity downgrade on before, it seems, due to the amount of wasted space (e.g. the stupid galley area) in the 2-car units. In particular Pwllheli-Machynlleth on a Sunday afternoon, which is going to look like Bank in the evening rush hour pre COVID.

It says a lot to me that TfW are more interested in English conquests (i.e. Liverpool) than properly resourcing Welsh long distance services.
 

jamess

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So, Cambrian mainline goes hourly......but most services are 2 cars......is there much iof an increase in the number of seats throughout the whole day?

Also, an acknowledgement that some 197's wont be in service until 2024....

Most services on the Man to Cardiff route will be 5 car also
 

Bletchleyite

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So, Cambrian mainline goes hourly......but most services are 2 cars......is there much iof an increase in the number of seats throughout the whole day?

We've been here before. It was called CrossCountry, and 20ish years on it is still not fixed.

Big clue: if you double the service and get new trains, you are NOT going to get away with similar capacity to now without it being rammed. As I said for the Southern from Watford to Clapham - you need 8 car hourly, or you need 8-car half hourly, as with the higher frequency it is suddenly going to be more useful for a LOT of people.

Plus one toilet per train on a service that has no station toilets bar Machynlleth and the termini? That's going to work. Not.

My view remains that the Class 197 implementation on the Cambrian is going to be disastrous.
 

Kite159

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An admission that a lot is going to be 2-car, and thus a very significant capacity downgrade on before, it seems, due to the amount of wasted space (e.g. the stupid galley area) in the 2-car units. In particular Pwllheli-Machynlleth on a Sunday afternoon, which is going to look like Bank in the evening rush hour pre COVID.

It says a lot to me that TfW are more interested in English conquests (i.e. Liverpool) than properly resourcing Welsh long distance services.

Not just on a Sunday afternoon, but on a spring Saturday when the weather is nice. Those Machynlleth - Pwllhehi services do have a good number of passengers who board and exit at the main stations on the coast (Barmouth, Harlech etc)

But at least there is a gallery area lol
 

Esker-pades

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So, Cambrian mainline goes hourly......but most services are 2 cars......is there much iof an increase in the number of seats throughout the whole day?

Also, an acknowledgement that some 197's wont be in service until 2024....

Most services on the Man to Cardiff route will be 5 car also

Well, the current bi-hourly service continues to be 4 coaches to/from Machynlleth. The 'gap-fillers' are two coaches. Some peak strengthening too.


The draft timetables provided are SX only......
 

Bletchleyite

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Not just on a Sunday afternoon, but on a spring Saturday when the weather is nice. Those Machynlleth - Pwllhehi services do have a good number of passengers who board and exit at the main stations on the coast (Barmouth, Harlech etc)

But at least there is a gallery area lol

Those Liverpool services are also going to be rammed, I reckon. It is a capacity increase on the North Wales Coast, but again with new services and fancy trains comes high passenger loadings.

Does nobody ever pay any attention to the lessons of XC?
 

jamess

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I also note that it has Avanti timings in, showing the evening service to Shrewsbury runs via Chester
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I also note that it has Avanti timings in, showing the evening service to Shrewsbury runs via Chester
ie the morning Wrexham-Chester-Euston and evening return is extended from/to Shrewsbury calling at intermediate stations.
It will be interesting to see where it comes from/goes to, possibly the 80x depot at Oxley?
Good to see the whole Avanti service is in there (hourly to Chester).

Avanti services west of Chester seem to be a good bit faster than the TfW 197s, even with the same stops.
Some peak TfW services will be 5-car 197s Chester-Manchester Airport, plus the balancing services back.

Caution: I remember FNW had similar aspirations with the 175 fleet - it didn't turn out like that.
"All trains west of Chester will be 175s" is a phrase I remember from the time.
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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Basically says

Cardiff Holyhead all 3-197 or 5-MK4
Cardiff Manchester all 5-197 or 5-MK4 apart from last 2 of day
Bangor Manchester all 3-197 with some 4/5 at peak

Birmingham Holyhead/Aberystwyth 1tp2h dividing at Shrewsbury - 4-197 split into 2 (1tpd 6 car - 4 to Holyhead, and 1tpd 6 car - 4 to Llandudno vice Holyhead)

Birmingham Pwllheli/Aberystwyth 1tp2h dividing at Machynlleth - 4-197 split into 2

Liverpool Llandudno all 2-197 duh

Cardiff Gloucester mix of 2 and 3 197, presumably 756 not ready to take 231 off Rhymneys?

Ebbw Maesteg solidly 3-197 with one 4 diagram

Swanline hourly 2-153, 2-197 from May 24
 

jamess

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ie the morning Wrexham-Chester-Euston and evening return is extended from/to Shrewsbury calling at intermediate stations.
It will be interesting to see where it comes from/goes to, possibly the 80x depot at Oxley?
Good to see the whole Avanti service is in there (hourly to Chester).

Avanti services west of Chester seem to be a good bit faster than the TfW 197s, even with the same stops.
Some peak TfW services will be 5-car 197s Chester-Manchester Airport, plus the balancing services back.

Caution: I remember FNW had similar aspirations with the 175 fleet - it didn't turn out like that.
"All train west of Chester will be 175s" is a phrase I remember from the time.
I've been trying to see where the 153's are still used..

Seems that Blaenau branch and Crewe-Salop shuttle and Crewe-Chester shuttle will all be 197

is it just Bidston and Swanline that see 153's?
 

Bertie the bus

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I like the fact it says 2-car 197 or 3-car 230 for Wrexham - Bidston. Presumably they're not confident the 230s will be in service this time next year.
 

jamess

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I like the fact it says 2-car 197 or 3-car 230 for Wrexham - Bidston. Presumably they're not confident the 230s will be in service this time next year.
all this puts pressure on the 197 fleet, of which they probably haven't ordered enough....
 

158841

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A big change for us on the Chester - Shrewsbury line sees most of the Holyhead - birmingham's no longer running and the Cardiff - Holyhead becoming hourly using 3 car 197s and us losing the morning peak 0745 Wrexham - Shrewsbury and the morning Liverpool service?
 

berneyarms

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A big change for us on the Chester - Shrewsbury line sees most of the Holyhead - birmingham's no longer running and the Cardiff - Holyhead becoming hourly using 3 car 197s and us losing the morning peak 0745 Wrexham - Shrewsbury and the morning Liverpool service?
I suspect that there's a mistake as the Chester to Liverpool table shows the 07:45 Chester to Liverpool service starting at Wrexham at 07:18.

The omission of the 07:50 Wrexham-Shrewsbury service must be a typo - I can't imagine that service being withdrawn.

At the same time, I am not sure how you think most of the Holyhead-Birmingham trains will be no longer running?

There will be Holyhead-Birmingham services at 09:30, 11:37, 13:21, 15:31 and 19:19.

The only one that's changed is the 07:35 ex-Holyhead which is diverted to Cardiff Central.

Holyhead-Cardiff isn't hourly all day, only in the morning peak - they run at 04:28, 05:32, 06:28, 07:35, 08:29, 10:39, 11:24, 14:34 and 16:34.
 
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30907

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I suspect that there's a mistake as the Chester to Liverpool table shows the 07:45 Chester to Liverpool service starting at Wrexham at 07:18.

The omission of the 07:50 Wrexham-Shrewsbury service must be a typo - I can't imagine that service being withdrawn.
There are some red-flag "reviews" below the table, as here "add train/stops."
 

Kite159

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A big change for us on the Chester - Shrewsbury line sees most of the Holyhead - birmingham's no longer running and the Cardiff - Holyhead becoming hourly using 3 car 197s and us losing the morning peak 0745 Wrexham - Shrewsbury and the morning Liverpool service?

Doesn't that Wrexham - Shrewsbury service only run due to the loco hauled set to Cardiff running nonstop between Wrexham & Shrewsbury for all the Welsh town council members to get to Cardiff a little bit quicker?
 

Llandudno

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Two trains per hour from Chester to Helsby and Frodsham departing within 8 minutes of each other..
xx45 Chester to Liverpool
xx53 Chester to Manchester Airport

Then nothing for 52 minutes!
 

cle

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Halton is just to Llandudno? Not a Shrewsbury/Cardiff portion?
 

craigybagel

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Okay people, put away the (sadly predictable) pitchforks for the timebeing. Please remember this is only the 2023 timetable, not the final 2024 offering. On most routes it's already an increase in capacity (yes, I can hear the shrill cries of "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CAMBRIAN?!?!?! already, I'll get to that), but with the promise of more yet to come.

Where are we seeing 2 car services? Well Llandudno to Liverpool is mentioned a lot - but bear in mind that Liverpool since Covid has been 1 2 car service every 2 hours, so an hourly 2 car service is a doubled service (and the peak Wrexham is a 4 car). Llandudno as an hourly 2 car might seem worrying, but bear in mind the coast is also seeing extra Bangor services, most of which are 3 cars, so again extra capacity.

There are more changes to come. As others have noticed, South Wales will be temporarily borrowing some 197s to work the routes that are meant to see Stadlers. When they arrive, that frees up more 197s for other routes. I also don't believe these plans include the entire 197 fleet being in service either, given the final unit wasn't expected in service till 2024.

Now then, on to the Cambrian. As I've pointed out many MANY times, the Cambrian, and especially the Coast, only really gets busy in high summer. The odds of a full 197 service starting on the Cambrian by summer 2023 are pretty slim, so nothing to worry about for this year. And as I said earlier, 2024 is likely to be different.

This isn't Cross-country, despite how much certain posters may want it to be. This is an exciting first glimpse at the future, before things get even better.

This is a massive expansion - taking place at the same time as so many questions are asked of the future of the DfT run TOCs. I know which part of the UK I'd rather be traveling in next year.
 

Halish Railway

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I’m not convinced on the idea of running the additional Aberystwyth services as a portion of the Birmingham International to Holyhead services. I think it would have been better if they instead ran to Crewe, essentially being an extension of the two-hourly Crewe to Shrewsbury stopper.

Edit: I suppose this is to make the best use of ETCS-fitted 197s, where the ETCS essential Aberystwyth/Pwhelli to Birmingham International services interwork with the Holyhead to Birmingham International services.
 

ExpressTrain

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I’m not convinced on the idea of running the additional Aberystwyth services as a portion of the Birmingham International to Holyhead services. I think it would have been better if they instead ran to Crewe, essentially being an extension of the two-hourly Crewe to Shrewsbury stopper.

Edit: I suppose this is to make the best use of ETCS-fitted 197s, where the ETCS essential Aberystwyth/Pwhelli to Birmingham International services interwork with the Holyhead to Birmingham International services.
I can’t see how running the additional Aberystwyth trains to Crewe instead of Birmingham is going to be beneficial. I would expect there is going to be much more demand for direct services to Birmingham than Crewe from Mid Wales. With connections, any connectivity you have at Crewe you will probably also have at one of Shrewsbury, Wolverhampton or Birmingham.

The only drawback of the portion working I can see is that any four carriage services currently from Chester or Holyhead towards Birmingham would become two car services to Shrewsbury because they will join up and form a four carriage train there.
 

craigybagel

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Somewhat amusingly it would appear that people have been so quick to criticise they haven't noticed some of the benefits to the timetable, some of which are new things that hadn't been previously announced, so allow me to go through every route and give a breakdown

Chester - Liverpool/Manchester
Liverpool services go back from 2 hourly to hourly (not seen since Covid), with most extended to/from Llandudno. The existing Wrexham services continue, but are increased to 4 cars.

Manchester services stay at hourly, but see increased capacity through longer trains, with all bar the last departure at night a minimum of 3 cars, and 5 cars in the peaks. Most services run to Bangor or Holyhead instead of Llandudno

All services worked by 197s

Chester - Shrewsbury
Broadly similar to now, though with a slight increase in the number of 4 car services. Morning services run through to Cardiff instead of Birmingham. There are a couple of gaps, but there are also references to a review taking place to fill these again.

All services worked by 197s bar the 3 daily Cardiff - Holyhead MKIVs.

Chester - Crewe
Frequency and times broadly the same as now, but capacity increased from 2 car 153 to 3 car 197.

North Wales Coast
Big increases in capacity here, with Manchester services diverted from Llandudno to Bangor, and Liverpool services extended to Llandudno in their place. Manchester - Bangor services are all 3 cars minimum, as are the Cardiff - Holyheads. There are also slightly more of the latter services, in place of some Birmingham - Holyhead.

All services worked by 197s bar the 3 daily Cardiff - Holyhead MKIVs.

Blaneau Ffestiniog
No major changes, other than 153s upgraded to 2 car 197s

Wrexham - Bidston
Service doubled to half hourly all day, with the extra service running semi - fast. Rolling stock unconfirmed, either 197 or 230.

Manchester - Cardiff/West Wales
No changes to frequency here but big improvements in capacity, with all services bar the last two at night from Manchester formed of alternating MKIVs and 5 car 197s. The 197s run through from Milford Haven, and return through to Fishguard Harbour (see below). MKIVs services are sped up slightly, presumably through running at MU speeds

Crewe - Shrewsbury local
Remains broadly the same as now, but upgraded from a single 153 to 2 car 197

Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth
Increase in frequency with services now running hourly all day. Most services run through to and from Birmingham, and every second splits at Machynlleth for Pwllheli as now. Splitting services run as 4 car 197s, purely Aberystwyth are 2 car 197s.

Cambrian Coast
Timetable broadly same as now. 2 car 158s replaced with 2 car 197s.

Shrewsbury - Birmingham International
Timetable broadly as now, but with some former Holyhead services running to/from Aberystwyth instead. Other than early morning and late at night all services are at least 4 car 197, with one 6 car in each peak.

Shrewsbury - Cardiff
Frequency same as now, but big increases in capacity. As mentioned above, nearly all Manchester services are 5 cars, either MKIVs or 197s. Additionally, all Cardiff - Holyhead services are at least 3 car 197, on top of the current 3 MKIV services per day.

Shrewsbury - Swansea via HOWL
Improved timetable introduced this month continues, but sees slight increase in capacity from 2024 with all solo 153s running as 2 car sets.

Cheltenham - Cardiff
Increase in frequency to hourly all day. Only runs East of Cardiff, no longer runs through to/from Maesteg. 2 X 2 car and 1 X 3 car 197.

Ebbw Vale - Newport/Cardiff
Frequency remains at hourly on both routes, but Newport services extended through to Ebbw Vale. Cardiff services extended to/from Maesteg in place of Cheltenham services. Cardiffs are all 3 car 197 bar 1 late night service, Newport 2 car 197

Cardiff - Swansea
Slight increase in frequency, with Swanline local services now running hourly all day, with 2 car 153 (replaced by 197 in 2024). Swanline services now stop all stops between Cardiff and Bridgend. Hourly TFW semi fast alternates between 5 car 197 on through services to/from Manchester (to Fishguard, from Milford Haven) and 2 car 197 on services terminating Cardiff. 1 service each way per day MKIVs (as per current timetable but not yet in service).

Maesteg branch
Frequency remains hourly, but as mentioned above services now run to/from Ebbw Vale. All are at least 3 cars, with a 4 car every 4 hours.

Swansea - West Wales
Some big pleasant surprises here. Swansea - Pembroke and Milford Haven both remain 2 car as now, with Milford services running east to Manchester and west from Cardiff as 2 car 197s. Pembroke services remain as 153s for now, but due to go to 197s in 2024.
Fishguard gains a 2 hourly all day service, formed of 2 car 197s, running West from Manchester and East to Cardiff. Extra capacity east of Carmarthen is provided by GWR extending their London - Swansea services to Carmarthen every 2nd hour all day.

I think that's everything, but I might have missed some of the details here and there. All told it's a big improvement over the tired ex Arriva timetable and fleet, both of which needed replacing years ago. There's also promises of further improvements to come when the entire Stadler and 197 fleets are in service in 2024. Exciting times!
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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Cheltenham - Cardiff
Increase in frequency to hourly all day. Only runs East of Cardiff, no longer runs through to/from Maesteg. 2 X 2 car and 1 X 3 car 197.

Ebbw Vale - Newport/Cardiff
Frequency remains at hourly on both routes, but Newport services extended through to Ebbw Vale. Cardiff services extended to/from Maesteg in place of Cheltenham services. Cardiffs are all 3 car 197 bar 1 late night service, Newport 2 car 197
I wonder where the 231s come in then. On Rhymneys until 2024? Are the 756s that delayed?
 
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