TFW December 2023 Timetable changes

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I understand the GWR Summer Saturday Pembroke services to be in the plan again for next summer.

Hilarious that demand isn’t apparently there for the 4 car trains on the North Downs and increased services around busy Bristol, but there’s apparently demand for 9 cars of fresh air going down to Pembroke Dump Dock

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Hilarious that demand isn’t apparently there for the 4 car trains on the North Downs and increased services around busy Bristol, but there’s apparently demand for 9 cars of fresh air going down to Pembroke Dump Dock

It’s 5 cars that run beyond Swansea and due to slightly different weekend service patterns the set is spare at weekends anyway. Tenby is the traffic objective and the trains aren’t fresh air - the Tenby branch struggled with overcrowding last summer.

What makes you think it’s fresh air? Last summer these trains ran as far as Carmarthen due to the inability to route refresh to Pembroke in time. They certainly weren’t carrying fresh air on that section.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s 5 cars that run beyond Swansea and due to slightly different weekend service patterns the set is spare at weekends anyway. Tenby is the traffic objective and the trains aren’t fresh air - the Tenby branch struggled with overcrowding last summer.

What makes you think it’s fresh air? Last summer these trains ran as far as Carmarthen due to the inability to route refresh to Pembroke in time. They certainly weren’t carrying fresh air on that section.

I’d agree there’s demand to travel to Carmarthen, but any time I’ve used the Pembroke Dock branch - last time was July - the 2 carriage 150 has been empty.

 

[Envoy]

I’d agree there’s demand to travel to Carmarthen, but any time I’ve used the Pembroke Dock branch - last time was July - the 2 carriage 150 has been empty.

I travelled on a HST (London > Pembroke Dock) on one of the last Saturdays that they ran. It was very full as far as Tenby but left rather empty for Pembroke Dock. Before it left, a packed 2 coach 150 Sprinter arrived from Pembroke Dock.

When on the south Pembrokeshire branch, I noticed the clackity clack of jointed rail which I guess must have been around since the days of steam? Surely, investment in new track on this (& other) branch lines would allow increased speeds? If this line was speeded up, then surely an hourly service to Tenby would be possible? Not only tourists but locals would also benefit. I see that a new hospital is planned for either Whitland or St.Clears. An hourly service on the south Pembrokeshire line would surely be most useful.

 

[Dai Corner]

I travelled on a HST (London > Pembroke Dock) on one of the last Saturdays that they ran. It was very full as far as Tenby but left rather empty for Pembroke Dock. Before it left, a packed 2 coach 150 Sprinter arrived from Pembroke Dock.

When on the south Pembrokeshire branch, I noticed the clackity clack of jointed rail which I guess must have been around since the days of steam? Surely, investment in new track on this (& other) branch lines would allow increased speeds? If this line was speeded up, then surely an hourly service to Tenby would be possible? Not only tourists but locals would also benefit. I see that a new hospital is planned for either Whitland or St.Clears. An hourly service on the south Pembrokeshire line would surely be most useful.

I suspect the line speed is more to do with curvature, clearances and the state of structures than the type of rails. Sorting those out and possibly resignalling to permit higher speeds and frequencies would not be cheap, especially if only needed for a few weekends a year. A lot of money has been spent on improving the roads in the area with high quality dual carriageway from the end of the M4 to St. Clears and new-build road onwards from there. It's hard to justify two transport infrastructures n the area.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I must say it is good news that Carmarthen gets 1tp2h GWR, as this gives Carmarthen a boost in capacity when it was feared they would suffer a loss with the cutting back of every other Manchester service!

This should mean it has
3tp2h to Cardiff Central, of which
- 1tp2h continues to London Paddington
- 1tp2h continues to Manchester Piccadilly

and its also worth noting the London services will consist of 26m carriages rather than 23m, and there will be guaranteed minimum 3.5 carriages of standard class.

 

[craigybagel]

I suspect the line speed is more to do with curvature, clearances and the state of structures than the type of rails. Sorting those out and possibly resignalling to permit higher speeds and frequencies would not be cheap, especially if only needed for a few weekends a year. A lot of money has been spent on improving the roads in the area with high quality dual carriageway from the end of the M4 to St. Clears and new-build road onwards from there. It's hard to justify two transport infrastructures n the area.

Not to mention the time taken to carry out the token exchange at Tenby under the NSTR system, and a number of train crew operated level crossings....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Overall, a really positive looking plan in general. I do think more 197s (albeit with bi-mode capability) should have been ordered in lieu of the FLIRTS and MK4 sets, as this timetable plan alone shows the benefits of homogeneity, but it is what it is.

 

[louis97]

and its also worth noting the London services will consist of 26m carriages rather than 23m, and there will be guaranteed minimum 3.5 carriages of standard class.

That's the maximum standard carriages you'll get on GWR from Carmarthen. 9 cars are not permitted to beyond Swansea. Whilst the plan for 1t2ph Carmarthen to London is great it does mean there is a possibility of a 5 car running throughout. Combined with the plans in the future for the Swansea Metro service you could see Llanelli to Swansea having up to 4.5tph.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That's the maximum standard carriages you'll get on GWR from Carmarthen. 9 cars are not permitted to beyond Swansea. Whilst the plan for 1t2ph Carmarthen to London is great it does mean there is a possibility of a 5 car running throughout. Combined with the plans in the future for the Swansea Metro service you could see Llanelli to Swansea having up to 4.5tph.

Yes, five cars still an upgrade on a 158/175/197, but what we don’t want is it leading to five car operation on the full route up to London. Hopefully there’ll be some smooth splitting and attaching at Swansea, though I wouldn’t put money on it.

 

[The exile]

Yes, five cars still an upgrade on a 158/175/197, but what we don’t want is it leading to five car operation on the full route up to London. Hopefully there’ll be some smooth splitting and attaching at Swansea, though I wouldn’t put money on it.

At least the fact that it’s a terminus helps!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Hopefully there’ll be some smooth splitting and attaching at Swansea, though I wouldn’t put money on it.

Seems to happen quite reliably on Sundays where it happens throughout the afternoon.

 

[Esker-pades]

Yes, five cars still an upgrade on a 158/175/197, but what we don’t want is it leading to five car operation on the full route up to London. Hopefully there’ll be some smooth splitting and attaching at Swansea, though I wouldn’t put money on it.

Seems to happen quite reliably on Sundays where it happens throughout the afternoon.

The rolling stock plans exist to give 10 cars to/from Swansea.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The rolling stock plans exist to give 10 cars to/from Swansea.

Oh I don’t doubt that, but short forms are already very common on the route and that being before splitting is worked into the service.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Oh I don’t doubt that, but short forms are already very common on the route and that being before splitting is worked into the service.

Very common? Yes they happen but wouldn’t say it’s excessively.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Very common? Yes they happen but wouldn’t say it’s excessively.

I would from seeing the 5 cars pass over St Mary St bridge daily. No, they’re not going to Penzance.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I would from seeing the 5 cars pass over St Mary St bridge daily. No, they’re not going to Penzance.

Yes but are those short-formed or booked 5 cars? Not everything is booked 9 or 10.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes but are those short-formed or booked 5 cars? Not everything is booked 9 or 10.

If they’re now booking London Swanseas as 5 cars, then maybe I’m not so happy about IETs replacing Castles after all…

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If they’re now booking London Swanseas as 5 cars, then maybe I’m not so happy about IETs replacing Castles after all…

There’s been a couple of quieter Swansea trains booked 5 cars since covid. Some of the Cardiff services have been ever since IETs were introduced.

 

[allaction]

Is it really that lucrative a proposition to run GWR trains to Pembroke Dock given the need to manage costs in the light of tighter budgets? Surely to run, it needs to cover its own costs as a non essential part of the GWR service?

It has always had good loadings to and from Tenby (but admittedly not beyond there) in the past and is written into GWRs ‘contract’ (or whatever) for the South Wales services.

 

[Starmill]

It has always had good loadings to and from Tenby (but admittedly not beyond there) in the past and is written into GWRs ‘contract’ (or whatever) for the South Wales services.

You could probably get away with a 153 on Tenby - Pembroke Dock shuttles and turning the five car 800 around at Tenby. Wouldn't save much though for the hassle.

 

[allaction]

Splitting the services on the Pembroke Dock branch into two separate services for much of the day: a PD - Tenby shuttle meeting the longer distance services to and from Swansea, Cardiff and beyond at Tenby is unthinkable (apparently) for many locals, but might it not actually improve quantity and quality of services on the more heavily used Tenby section of the route?

(It would also confine the troublesome level crossings to the shorter, quieter part of the line.)

Something for TfW to consider in 2023?

 

[Mark G]

Now the 197's are out working, what are the 175's allocated to now?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Now the 197's are out working, what are the 175's allocated to now?

The same routes, as they are not yet saturated enough by the 197s to change things much, other than coupling a few together where they wouldn't have before.

 

[Jez]

I saw a 5 car formation of 175s on one of the Swansea-Manchester's today. However we still have quite a few 175s being subbed by 150s and 158s. E.g the 1453 Cardiff-Manchester was a 150 today whilst the terminating 3 car 175 from Swansea which would have formed it before the TT change went on to form the next service to Holyhead. So i dont think there are as many 175s available as there was which is why we are seeing so many subbed by sprinters still.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I saw a 5 car formation of 175s on one of the Swansea-Manchester's today. However we still have quite a few 175s being subbed by 150s and 158s. E.g the 1453 Cardiff-Manchester was a 150 today whilst the terminating 3 car 175 from Swansea which would have formed it before the TT change went on to form the next service to Holyhead. So i dont think there are as many 175s available as there was which is why we are seeing so many subbed by sprinters still.

One of the Manchesters is actually booked a 150 currently due to the late introduction of Mk4 stock, which will be fully rolled out by May.

 

[Anonymous10]

It’s 5 cars that run beyond Swansea and due to slightly different weekend service patterns the set is spare at weekends anyway. Tenby is the traffic objective and the trains aren’t fresh air - the Tenby branch struggled with overcrowding last summer.

What makes you think it’s fresh air? Last summer these trains ran as far as Carmarthen due to the inability to route refresh to Pembroke in time. They certainly weren’t carrying fresh air on that section.

It did indeed to be fair to tfw they did try their best to run 3 carriage 15x or 175s occasionally even 4 carriages were laid on to attempt to cover for the high demand on the service

 

[craigybagel]

I saw a 5 car formation of 175s on one of the Swansea-Manchester's today. However we still have quite a few 175s being subbed by 150s and 158s. E.g the 1453 Cardiff-Manchester was a 150 today whilst the terminating 3 car 175 from Swansea which would have formed it before the TT change went on to form the next service to Holyhead. So i dont think there are as many 175s available as there was which is why we are seeing so many subbed by sprinters still.

Currently two former 175 diagrams have gone over to 197s, but the changes to Manchester - West Wales services to accommodate MKIVs actually increases the number of diagrams needed by 1 - and there are several 175s out of service at the moment anyway so you're not likely to feel the benefits just yet

One of the Manchesters is actually booked a 150 currently due to the late introduction of Mk4 stock, which will be fully rolled out by May.

Strictly speaking, the only diagram that is meant to be MKIVs that is actually booked for anything else is booked for a 175 until May (0830 &1630 from Manchester). All the others are still booked for MKIVs, but get various changes made each day to account for the MKIVs not being in service yet. On the train crew diagrams those services are still shown as worked by MKIVs, other than the diagram I mentioned above.

 

[30907]

Splitting the services on the Pembroke Dock branch into two separate services for much of the day: a PD - Tenby shuttle meeting the longer distance services to and from Swansea, Cardiff and beyond at Tenby is unthinkable (apparently) for many locals, but might it not actually improve quantity and quality of services on the more heavily used Tenby section of the route?

Quality - possibly.
Quantity - unlikely, as an hourly service isn't possible AND your Tenby terminator would have to have a sufficient turnround (as with the present evening example - incidentally, do both trains have to shunt between platforms, or are they now bidirectional?).

 

[Express380]

Strictly speaking, the only diagram that is meant to be MKIVs that is actually booked for anything else is booked for a 175 until May (0830 &1630 from Manchester). All the others are still booked for MKIVs, but get various changes made each day to account for the MKIVs not being in service yet. On the train crew diagrams those services are still shown as worked by MKIVs, other than the diagram I mentioned above.

When are the rest the MK4 services going enter service and stop being subbed in by units please? (With the exception of the 16:30 from Manchester)