TFW December 2023 Timetable changes

[craigybagel]

Quality - possibly.
Quantity - unlikely, as an hourly service isn't possible AND your Tenby terminator would have to have a sufficient turnround (as with the present evening example - incidentally, do both trains have to shunt between platforms, or are they now bidirectional?).

If it's the same as the HOWL which also uses NSTR, trains can only arrive on one platform, but they can return in the opposite direction from that same platform without needing to shunt.

When are the rest the MK4 services going enter service and stop being subbed in by units please? (With the exception of the 16:30 from Manchester)

The first diagram should switch over on January 9th, with the others following in the weeks behind. Full details can be found in this thread .

 

[allaction]

Quality - possibly.
Quantity - unlikely, as an hourly service isn't possible AND your Tenby terminator would have to have a sufficient turnround (as with the present evening example - incidentally, do both trains have to shunt between platforms, or are they now bidirectional?).

The 2000 arrival from Manchester Piccadilly arrives in Platform 1 at Tenby and departs for Cardiff from there soon afterwards, while the matching arrival from Pembroke Dock arrives on Platform 2 and returns to PD from there. It’s a magnificent spectacle.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Yes, the proposed Bidston-Wrexham timetable puzzles me more each time I look at it.

-The morning peak towards Liverpool is a big improvement, but the evening peak returning is as bad as it ever was. It isn’t going to help commuters on the line at all as it needs to work well in both directions;

-The evening service does nothing for the leisure market, with virtually no evening service still, and a very early last train as Llandudno mentions above;

-the semi-fasts only seem to save 1 or 2 mins end to end - eg the 1008 semi-fast Wrexham-Bidston takes 53 mins, but the 1035 all-stations takes only 54 mins … so why even skip the stops? And why skip Upton, about the most populous area?

As I’ve said in an earlier thread, this is a really important step forward, and I understand the freight constraints, but I’m concerned that the passenger service outcomes above are going to make it very hard to realise the potential in the commuter and leisure markets, as the clockface service enhancements are mainly at times when growth is going to be harder to generate.

Upton is the most least used station on Merseyside. I’ve never seen large amounts of passengers board on the existing services at Upton.

Judging by the pathing at Bidston, the fast Wrexham services would mostly need to run into Platform 1 and then reverse in the siding and run back into Bidston to avoid blocking Platform 2 for the XX:55 West Kirby service. However, those Merseyrail services will soon be recasted once the 507/508s have been removed from service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Now the 197's are out working, what are the 175's allocated to now?

Mostly on non-existent Mk4 diagrams.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Now the 197's are out working, what are the 175's allocated to now?

Covering the lack of available 67+mk4 sets

 

[SWML9102]

The addition of a second service every hour serving stations between Cardiff and Bridgend is a big improvement. Likewise increasing the Swanline service to hourly, which looks well timed to run shortly behind GWR trains in both directions. Hopefully both will tap in to latent demand.

However I'm very disappointed more couldn't have been done with the fast trains between Cardiff and Swansea. Eastbound is adequate with two fasts each hour spaced roughly 30mins apart. But westbound is awful - two fasts and the stopper all within 9mins then nothing for the rest of the hour!

 

[anthony263]

The addition of a second service every hour serving stations between Cardiff and Bridgend is a big improvement. Likewise increasing the Swanline service to hourly, which looks well timed to run shortly behind GWR trains in both directions. Hopefully both will tap in to latent demand.

However I'm very disappointed more couldn't have been done with the fast trains between Cardiff and Swansea. Eastbound is adequate with two fasts each hour spaced roughly 30mins apart. But westbound is awful - two fasts and the stopper all within 9mins then nothing for the rest of the hour!

Thats the problem tfw needs to look at pathing trains westbound

 

[SWML9102]

The obvious solution is to split the Manchester - West Wales services at Cardiff (which has already been done every other hour anyway). The Fishguard / Milford services could then leave Cardiff around 20/25 mins later. Westbound return workings need not be impacted as there is around 40mins layover at Milford and Fishguard in the present proposals.

Pembroke Dock timings may need to be tweaked to fit around that, but they run as independent shuttles to and from Swansea, so could easily be adjusted.

Downside to this would of course be lack of through trains from the north west to points west of Cardiff, but would overall benefit majority of passengers. By my observations the majority of West Wales passengers board/alight at Cardiff anyway (less so on London services). It would also offer more flexible connections from Midlands, Bristol and South West to west of Cardiff.

My guess is that removal of through services between West Wales and points East of Cardiff would be a political issue more than a timetabling one.

 

[el_lnrd]

The timetables are not available on the website anymore.
https://tfw.wales/draft-timetables-2023 returns access denied.

I would disagree with this view. Cardiff Central tracks are very poorly suited to any kind of terminating trains either incoming from the west or the east. The layout is such that to attain any stabling position or turning point and then coming back on the platform, trains have to cross the mainline therefore creating both a pathing constraint and a reliability hazard. I was worried about the 2022 timetable due to the fact that it increased the number of Cardiff terminators substantially.

Secondly, Cardiff is not a nice station to change at, it is busy and your trains are not always leaving from the convenient platform (e.g. use of the 0 platform Eastbound and couple trains leaving from 3/4 Eastbound). Loads of stairs and a connection time that cannot be brought under 5 minutes. I would argue that in spite of its location Swansea has the benefit of providing a level floor nearly fully covered. Connection times could be around the 5 minutes. It also has lower level of traffic limiting pathing conflicts out of the station and is a natural terminus for traffic coming from the West.

Hence operationally, even if there is less than a Mk4 set every 2hours, pushing further west to Swansea could be easier to deal with.

As for the pathing of westbound trains the problem is the Maesteg branch it also represents a major reliability hazard in everyday trafic and a huge pathing constraint. The second hourly GWR train in the evening is domesticated west of Cardiff. There are not many ways to improve it. The easiest way to dispense with it would be to run shuttles but that won't be easy to accept. In turn another swanline type service would have more flexibility to deal with this if it leaves behind the GWR service.

 

[anthony263]

The timetables are not available on the website anymore.
https://tfw.wales/draft-timetables-2023 returns access denied.

I would disagree with this view. Cardiff Central tracks are very poorly suited to any kind of terminating trains either incoming from the west or the east. The layout is such that to attain any stabling position or turning point and then coming back on the platform, trains have to cross the mainline therefore creating both a pathing constraint and a reliability hazard. I was worried about the 2022 timetable due to the fact that it increased the number of Cardiff terminators substantially.

Secondly, Cardiff is not a nice station to change at, it is busy and your trains are not always leaving from the convenient platform (e.g. use of the 0 platform Eastbound and couple trains leaving from 3/4 Eastbound). Loads of stairs and a connection time that cannot be brought under 5 minutes. I would argue that in spite of its location Swansea has the benefit of providing a level floor nearly fully covered. Connection times could be around the 5 minutes. It also has lower level of traffic limiting pathing conflicts out of the station and is a natural terminus for traffic coming from the West.

Hence operationally, even if there is less than a Mk4 set every 2hours, pushing further west to Swansea could be easier to deal with.

As for the pathing of westbound trains the problem is the Maesteg branch it also represents a major reliability hazard in everyday trafic and a huge pathing constraint. The second hourly GWR train in the evening is domesticated west of Cardiff. There are not many ways to improve it. The easiest way to dispense with it would be to run shuttles but that won't be easy to accept. In turn another swanline type service would have more flexibility to deal with this if it leaves behind the GWR service.

Many people complaining about how close together the westbound service to seansea is. Pity tfw can't look at this. Main.issue seems to be theyve tried to use the swanline service to give a extra train each hour to pontyclun etc.

 

[craigybagel]

Many people complaining about how close together the westbound service to seansea is. Pity tfw can't look at this. Main.issue seems to be theyve tried to use the swanline service to give a extra train each hour to pontyclun etc.

The paths out of Manchester are pretty fixed. The only way you can run the TfW services west of Cardiff at a more even interval from the GWR services is to separate them from Manchester services every hour.

 

[anthony263]

The paths out of Manchester are pretty fixed. The only way you can run the TfW services west of Cardiff at a more even interval from the GWR services is to separate them from Manchester services every hour.

The new tfw December 2023 has swanline separate from the Manchester but leaving Cardiff 5 minutes behind them to swansea

 

[Esker-pades]

The new tfw December 2023 has swanline separate from the Manchester but leaving Cardiff 5 minutes behind them to swansea

The logic behind that is to give Pontyclun/Llanharan/Pencoed a near half-hourly service from Cardiff. Maesteg goes at xx:16, Swanline at xx:50.

 

[craigybagel]

The new tfw December 2023 has swanline separate from the Manchester but leaving Cardiff 5 minutes behind them to swansea

Indeed, but my point is that the TfW service is always going to end up very close to the GWR service, so regardless of what you do with Swanline or Maesteg, the two semi fast services are going to be very close.

 

[route101]

Do any of the 197s and loco hauled TFW stock run to Manchester at the weekends?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Do any of the 197s and loco hauled TFW stock run to Manchester at the weekends?

No 197s ran today, but they have previously. Loco Hauled stock won't run anywhere on a Sunday so that DB can carry out loco maintenance.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Loco Hauled stock won't run anywhere on a Sunday so that DB can carry out loco maintenance.

Permanently? But not every 67 is in use Mon - Sat, so surely some can be maintained on the days they don’t get allocated?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Permanently? But not every 67 is in use Mon - Sat, so surely some can be maintained on the days they don’t get allocated?

My understanding is no Mk4s will run on Sundays for that reason yes. No booked work for them either.

 

[anthony263]

Would it be possible to swap the swanline and Maesteg service around so that swanline services run to Ebbw Vale with Maesteg trains terminating at Cardiff Central.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Would it be possible to swap the swanline and Maesteg service around so that swanline services run to Ebbw Vale with Maesteg trains terminating at Cardiff Central.

For what benefit? You’d also undo the plans for designated 3-231 on Ebbw Vale/Maesteg and 2-197 on Swanline.

 

[anthony263]

For what benefit? You’d also undo the plans for designated 3-231 on Ebbw Vale/Maesteg and 2-197 on Swanline.

Better spread of services westbound towards Swansea

 

[Woolos 22]

Is there any update on the changes ?

 

[allaction]

Timetables are here:

Train timetables | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

I think these are only the December 2022 and May 2023 timetables.

 

[berneyarms]

Apologies - jumping ahead of myself!

 

[FrodshamJnct]

No return to an hourly service for the Chester - Liverpool in the May change. Irritating for those of us trying to commute to Liverpool directly to get to the office at a reasonable time.

 

[frodshamfella]

No return to an hourly service for the Chester - Liverpool in the May change. Irritating for those of us trying to commute to Liverpool directly to get to the office at a reasonable time.

I use this route, the return to " normal " is taking for ever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I use this route, the return to " normal " is taking for ever.

It's probably the lowest priority route of all, because:

1. It's only relatively new, so few people have built up routines around it
2. Connectional options are available, so no journeys are impossible

Thus I suspect it won't return to hourly (and extend to Llandudno as is the eventual plan) until all the 197s are accepted.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

It's probably the lowest priority route of all, because:

1. It's only relatively new, so few people have built up routines around it
2. Connectional options are available, so no journeys are impossible

Thus I suspect it won't return to hourly (and extend to Llandudno as is the eventual plan) until all the 197s are accepted.

That’s my expectation too.

 

[frodshamfella]

It's probably the lowest priority route of all, because:

1. It's only relatively new, so few people have built up routines around it
2. Connectional options are available, so no journeys are impossible

Thus I suspect it won't return to hourly (and extend to Llandudno as is the eventual plan) until all the 197s are accepted.

The only connections available is via Chester which no one would use because it takes too long. Even with the poor timetable, its a busy service. Lots of potential when TFW get their act together.

 

[anthony263]

I suspect the Llandudno to Liverpool service will be very popular. The previous Cardiff to Liverpool trains were popular so all going to plan i wouldn't be surprised to see demand for the 2 hourly service to be increased to hourly.

I noticed there's a late even Birmingham International to Manchester service via Shrewsbury and Wrexham instead of it going to Holyhead which surprised me.

Any idea if well here what feedback tfw have had from.these proposals. I know they've had quite a backlash for no swanline trains from Cardiff to Swansea after 2100 whereas the 2315 from Cardiff is always a busy service.