TfW language policy

[styles]

If you hear one of those it will have been manually activated.

On TfW specifically? Because on a lot of trains it's just part of the boarding announcements.

 

[Krokodil]

On TfW specifically? Because on a lot of trains it's just part of the boarding announcements.

On 197s. I don't sign 231s etc.

 

[urbophile]

And currently, TfW services in Cheshire, Greater Manchester, Shropshire and soon West Midlands still prioritise Welsh first. Yet I notice those trying to be sanctimonious by telling us that Welsh should come first in Wales do not mind when English does not come first in England, and that is a double standard which I attribute wholly to virtue signalling and the shallow reality of those who claim to feel strongly about such issues. Trying to portray those who think differently as repellent to other cultures (xenophobic, basically) by comparing them to that article is frankly very poor.

Which is why we have something to learn from the Belgian approach. If the train/station is in England (or even a majority English-speaking part of Wales), prioritise English;otherwise, prioritise Welsh. I suspect the problem is that TfW haven't got up-to-date software that allows that flexibility.

On the other hand, if I was a first-language Welsh speaker, I would be righty infuriated by any suggestion that since I understood English, my native language in my native country need not be used.

 

[Krokodil]

the Belgian approach. If the train/station is in England (or even a majority English-speaking part of Wales), prioritise English;otherwise, prioritise Welsh.

Is that how it works in Belgium? Previous posters have implied that it tends to be "strictly local language only"

 

[urbophile]

Is that how it works in Belgium? Previous posters have implied that it tends to be "strictly local language only"

Well yes. I'm not really recommending that particularly, just the efficiency with which the systems can switch from one language to another when necessary/

 

[GusB]

I don't live in Wales and don't speak Welsh but I completely understand the reasons for the Welsh Government wishing to promote the Welsh language. If that means that announcements in English come second, so be it. Ultimately the order of ther announcements makes no difference to me as long as the relevant information is conveyed clearly in both languages. If it is the case that the English announcements are being cut short or omitted completely because there isn't enough time then the announcements are either too long or they don't begin early enough - either way, this is a technical issue that should be fairly easy to resolve.

I find the "English is the dominant language in the UK so it should come first above all others" attitude to be rather disappointing. As has already been pointed out in the thread, English is a second language for some Welsh speakers and people should not be forced to conduct their daily business in a language that is, in essense, foreign to them. The same applies to any other regional languages such as Cornish, Gaelic and Scots.

Languages will naturally change over time and some will die out as people move around and different cultures intermingle. I live in an area that was once Pictish, but eventually Gaelic took over and over time that language was gradually replaced by Scots - a language that is still quite widely spoken. Unfortunately, the demise of these languages was hastened by the ruling classes who decided that everyone should be educated in English only and daring to communicate in one's "mither tongue" at school was frequently punishable by violence.

Let's also not forget that the English that we speak today has developed from the languages of people who arrived here in small boats...

 

[tfw756rider]

If a train crash was imminent would warnings to passengers be Welsh first? (They might not get round to the English version…..)

There's actually at least one Cambrian guard who does manual bilingual announcements (yes, in the "Welsh then English" order), and I'd like to think that even they would make an exception in such circumstances, or at least English then Welsh.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==

As an Englishman I’m jealous of the passion the Welsh have for their identity.

Wales has a wonderful national anthem while we’re stuck with the mournful dirge of ‘God save the (insert gender)’.

The Welsh have a dragon flag that inspires, we’re torn between a mongrel multi-nation lash-up that often ends up upside down, or a simple cross that causes issues of racist overtones.

Personally, I love the pub I go to a few times a year where Welsh is as prevalent as English in the chatter. It reminds me (rightly) that I’m the foreigner.

But ‘Telford Canolog’?? Really?

Yes, really, Telford Canolog. And Birmingham Rhyngwladol.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==

This is actually completely wrong. Many school children in Wales don't speak English on the same level as Welsh, as they attend Welsh-medium schools and their exposure to English is quite limited when it comes to communication. A good friend of mine is quite noticeably weaker in English than in Welsh: she can banter in the pub like anyone else, but you can clearly see that she works in Welsh and did her entire education in Welsh, as she doesn't have the vocabulary for dealing with more complicated topics. For instance, she's very uncomfortable with topics like pensions in English, and she simply doesn't know (or use) the breadth of English that English native speakers use on a daily basis. I remember one night in the pub when we were grilling her on things like water meters, and she uses some very strange constructions in English to describe things.

She comes from a Welsh speaking family, her town is mostly Welsh speaking, and the idea that she's 'perfectly fluent in English' is just wrong. If she was to write a complaint to TfW, it would be in Welsh, not English.

And anyway, Welsh is an official language in Wales, so why wouldn't they have Welsh announcements?

Exactly. You went into a lot more detail than me on that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==

But equally, is there something specific in TfW announcements which you feel are unnecessary, inconvenient, or dare I say unsafe; which the likes of SBB CFF FFS don't have?

Most of this thread appears to be a broad complaint about Welsh being before English which I don't really think requires a week long meeting with Swiss counterparts to decide that maybe it should be English before Welsh.

I think the issue is with the whole announcement being done in Welsh, then the whole announcement being done in English. I know not every announcement is a platform announcement for a Swansea to Crewe (via the HoWL) service (which has/had a minute-and-a-half of Welsh before the minute-and-a-half of English), but still...

What do you think of:

• The basic information (platform number, departure time, operator, destination) in Welsh
• Then the basic information (platform number, departure time, operator, destination) in English
• Then the calling points in Welsh
• Then the calling points in English
• Then any request stops in Welsh
• Then any request stops in English

(something like that?)

 

[styles]

There's actually at least one Cambrian guard who does manual bilingual announcements (yes, in the "Welsh then English" order), and I'd like to think that even they would make an exception in such circumstances, or at least English then Welsh.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==


Yes, really, Telford Canolog. And Birmingham Rhyngwladol.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==


Exactly. You went into a lot more detail than me on that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==


I think the issue is with the whole announcement being done in Welsh, then the whole announcement being done in English. I know not every announcement is a platform announcement for a Swansea to Crewe (via the HoWL) service (which has/had a minute-and-a-half of Welsh before the minute-and-a-half of English), but still...

What do you think of:

The basic information (platform number, departure time, operator, destination) in Welsh.

Then the basic information (platform number, departure time, operator, destination) in English.

Then the calling points in Welsh.

Then the calling points in English.

Then any request stops in Welsh.

Then any request stops in English.

(something like that)

?

I think that would be fine also. If it's going to be split up then it does need doing in large enough chunks that it's not difficult to follow.

Plenty of cabin crew announcements on planes follow this pattern, particularly pre-take off.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Compare that to the new 197/231/398/756/MK4 trains which have endless extremely long scripts in both English and Welsh which go on and on and on and constant annoying See It Say It Sorted announcements. TFW onboard announcements have gone so downhill. The older remaining 150s / 158s / 230s are so much nicer to travel on with their simple short announcements.

On TfW specifically? Because on a lot of trains it's just part of the boarding announcements.

I can't comment on the 231/398/756s, but on a 197 "See it, Say it, Sorted" is definitely manually activated, and I'm not aware that such an announcement even exists on the Mk4s.

Unless you get a rogue unit that has somehow reverted to an older version, the main 197 announcements have been significantly slimmed down and have been for several months now:

On approach to station (Welsh then English):
"We are now approaching <station>."

When doors are released (Welsh then English):
"Welcome to <station>. We will be travelling to <station>."

When train starts moving (Welsh then English):
"We will be travelling to <station>."

What do you think of:

• The basic information (platform number, departure time, operator, destination) in Welsh
• Then the basic information (platform number, departure time, operator, destination) in English
• Then the calling points in Welsh
• Then the calling points in English
• Then any request stops in Welsh
• Then any request stops in English

(something like that?)

Surely that's even more confusing because you've got to listen out for 3 separate announcements?

 

[Falcon1200]

Learning multiple languages enhances your cognitive abilities.

I agree! However with English being spoken so widely there is less incentive for us to learn other languages, and as before, which should we learn?

I don't live in Wales and don't speak Welsh but I completely understand the reasons for the Welsh Government wishing to promote the Welsh language.

I agree with that too! However it has been shown that many Welsh people do not actually speak Welsh, therefore, as I suggested previously, Welsh announcements first where it is the dominant language, otherwise English first.

 

[Krokodil]

I agree! However with English being spoken so widely there is less incentive for us to learn other languages, and as before, which should we learn?

Learn any language you like, even Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. You'll still derive some benefit.

 

[thenorthern]

With road signage I know the convention is to have Welsh first then English which has been the case since 2016. As far as I know it's not done for prestige reasons rather just to have a uniform system throughout Wales. I am not sure if there is a convention with railways.

While the Welsh Government has some strange ideas for the Welsh language such as giving the new Senedd constituencies only Welsh names. I I am confident that TfW is not trying to erase English especially given their largest network (the Valley Lines) is in an overwhelmingly English speaking area. TfW will always conduct most of it's business in English.

 

[Yew]

...and as my examples show, it really does not put them at a disadvantage

The examples do not show that, though. Are you seriously suggesting that better English skills would not have increased their attainment, or opened up options to move to other areas and potentially progress faster?


People progressing well despite a disadvantage shows a great deal of dedication and personal effort, but to suggest that the existence of such people means that no such disadvantage exists is obviously wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2025 ==

Which is why we have something to learn from the Belgian approach. If the train/station is in England (or even a majority English-speaking part of Wales), prioritise English;otherwise, prioritise Welsh.

I think you've made a false equivalence there, the appropriate equivalent would be on the prevalence locally of the language. Taking your suggestion back to Belgium shows this as, ordering based on country does not make sense for Belgium, as its regions are not countries.

 

[urbophile]

I think you've made a false equivalence there, the appropriate equivalent would be on the prevalence locally of the language. Taking your suggestion back to Belgium shows this as, ordering based on country does not make sense for Belgium, as its regions are not countries.

It's not comparing like with like exactly. Belgium has very strictly defined language territories; in Wales there is a mix of languages in most places. But given the appropriate software it should be possible to prioritise Welsh in majority Welsh-speaking areas, and English in the others. In Belgium of course most announcements are monolingual apart from in the Brussels area; in Wales they would have to be bilingual. But there should be nowhere with announcements in English only.

 

[enginedin]

Are you seriously suggesting that better English skills would not have increased their attainment, or opened up options to move to other areas and potentially progress faster?

Absolutely, yes I am. I know at least 1 GP who works in a predominantly Welsh-language practice - a requirement of jobs like that is fluency in Welsh. I would be at a disadvantage for that job, given I am not a fluent Welsh speaker. Admittedly, someone who was raised in England could learn Welsh to that level, but it's much much easier if it's your first language, or you were raised bilingually. I've got friends who are welsh first language who have other higher degrees (PhDs, PGCEs) and many of them take full advantage of their Welsh language skills to get jobs in welsh-speaking areas, whilst also making full use of their education. i.e. they have more jobs open to them, not fewer, and monolingual English people are at a disadvantage.

 

[Krokodil]

Absolutely, yes I am. I know at least 1 GP who works in a predominantly Welsh-language practice - a requirement of jobs like that is fluency in Welsh. I would be at a disadvantage for that job, given I am not a fluent Welsh speaker. Admittedly, someone who was raised in England could learn Welsh to that level, but it's much much easier if it's your first language, or you were raised bilingually. I've got friends who are welsh first language who have other higher degrees (PhDs, PGCEs) and many of them take full advantage of their Welsh language skills to get jobs in welsh-speaking areas, while also making full use of their education

To add to this, I would say that it's easier to learn English as a second language than it is to have English as a first language and learn a second. I don't mean that the English language is easy - it's not. I mean it in a practical sense, because there are far greater opportunities to immerse oneself which is very helpful when learning.

So having Welsh (or any other language) as a first language and then learning English later is very likely to put you ahead of someone who was brought up with English and tries to learn a second language later.

I say all this as someone who was brought up with English as a first language, did French at secondary school (11 is far too late to start learning, foreign languages should be part of the curriculum from the beginning of schooling) and has slowly been picking up Welsh as an adult.

 

[GusB]

I say all this as someone who was brought up with English as a first language, did French at secondary school (11 is far too late to start learning, foreign languages should be part of the curriculum from the beginning of schooling) and has slowly been picking up Welsh as an adult.

The best time to learn a second language is in the early years. I picked French (I could have chosen German, but not both) when I started secondary school and I'd liked to have continued with it after Standard Grade, but timetable constraints prevented me from doing so. My niece and nephews were exposed to foreign languages at a much earlier age.

I find it utterly baffling why so many people are against the tuition of foreign languages and more baffling that there's so much pushback when it comes to teaching native languages!

 

[styles]

The best time to learn a second language is in the early years. I picked French (I could have chosen German, but not both) when I started secondary school and I'd liked to have continued with it after Standard Grade, but timetable constraints prevented me from doing so. My niece and nephews were exposed to foreign languages at a much earlier age.

I find it utterly baffling why so many people are against the tuition of foreign languages and more baffling that there's so much pushback when it comes to teaching native languages!

I went to school in Wales from age 8, in an overwhelmingly English-Speaking part of Wales (we probably had more Scousers than Welsh-speaking gogs!) Naturally, we had to learn Welsh to GCSE short course standard minimum, full course standard optional. We learnt either French or German, without a choice of which one, until year 9, the year GCSEs 'start' if you like, then we could drop it.

I wasn't persuaded by anybody to continue learning German, and as my interests were all STEM, I opted for all my optional GCSEs to be STEM subjects.

As an adult, I wish I'd continued German, not because it would help my employment prospects, but because I think learning languages is part of understanding others' cultures and broadening horizons.

I actually wish I'd been given the choice of French or German (or other languages but obviously there are teaching resource constraints), as I would've chosen French. I've been to France plenty, more French speaking parts of Switzerland than Germany speaking parts, and Arabic countries where French is often understood by many far more often than I've been to Germany (3 times?) Of course once you learn a language you might find learning other languages in the same 'family' easier.

In my early 30s I contemplated learning a foreign language, as while I do enjoy Welsh, I'm not back in Welsh-speaking parts of Wales to practice it, and if I try speaking it where my family live in Wales, I get confused looks, e.g. from the Scouse bus drivers who don't speak a word of it. I have tried Duolingo and a couple of others but don't find I get on with it for some reason.

I'm not sure if this is because the medium (mobile apps) isn't for me, or because I'm 33 and my brain just isn't practised in learning languages, or indeed speaking multiple languages I already know. I suspect a mix. I've just moved house and on the lookout for language classes, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't nervous about the prospect.

The thing is though, schools in Wales do teach both Welsh and English. By law, both Welsh and English must be taught until age 16. After that you can drop both languages entirely for 6th form/college. So I'm really not sure what the issue is as, while there are certainly Welsh speakers who barely speak much English, the current curriculum legislation pretty much avoids this by requiring both to be taught to current pupils. I suspect the number of pupils who pass Welsh but fail English in 2025 is vanishingly small.

 

[zero]

From my own school days, where lots of students came and went, those with previously poor English who joined in or before Year 8 managed to leave school sounding just like natives. But those who arrived from Year 9 onwards all ended up with some imperfections.

I have two cousins who also proved this rule. They moved to an English-speaking country aged 12 and 14, having learned English as a foreign language before (from non-native teachers who also didn't use it in everyday life). Now in their 40s, the younger one cannot be distinguished from someone who was born in the area they moved to, but the older one still makes minor grammatical and pronunciation errors even though she has also picked up the local accent.


In places like Gwynedd, I'm not sure if English speakers may get ostracised at school which might make it harder to acquire Welsh. But I would think that an 11yo English speaker from Cardiff (who would have had Welsh lessons but perhaps never used it day to day) who moves there and attends a Welsh-medium school should be able to develop perfect fluency by 18. Likewise a Welsh-speaking 11yo who moves to Cardiff and happens to go to an English-medium school should have perfect English by the end.

The above situations would be different from an 11yo in the UK who does a few hours of French a week and never really has opportunities to speak it in real life.


While it is commendable that Welsh speakers are able to get jobs that let them serve their community in Welsh, such as being a GP as was mentioned above, I think other posters were making a different point. After all, there are plenty of doctors in England who have less than fluent English; so for a Welsh-speaking place that needs one, having a GP with not-so-great Welsh is better than having no GP. For an individual, even if they feel most at home in Welsh, surely it is still better to get their English to the highest possible level than limit themselves to only feeling comfortable in a majority Welsh-speaking area; then it is an active choice to stay (vis-a-vis English people finding it harder to move to other EU countries because of language, when we were in the EU)

 

[styles]

Edit: created a new post to discuss the general topic of English/Welsh language education in Wales: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-welsh-and-english-languages-in-wales.286219/

 

[tfw756rider]

Surely that's even more confusing because you've got to listen out for 3 separate announcements?

Is it though? Surely you'd gather, after hearing the first bit in both Welsh and English, and then the second bit in Welsh, that that will then be followed by the second bit in English, etc.?

I thought that it would "spread it out" a bit, so that English-only-speaking people wouldn't have to wait as long to start hearing "their" information, while still (theoretically) satisfying the legislation by playing each part in a "Welsh then English" order?

 

[Jantra]

Could someone please tell me why on earth the English 'Onboard' announcements on the new 231/756 trains are read by someone with a very pronounced North Wales Accents? If you are going to have a regional accent why not use someone with a Valleys or Cardiff accent? I suspect the reason is most of the communications roles in TfW are mandated to be bi-lingual and hence most of the staff are from North Wales.

 

[cb a1]

Today was my first time ever on a TfW train heading home from a visit to Cardiff travelling from Cardiff to Manchester Piccadilly.
I thought it was pretty cool having bilingual announcements.

 

[chrisjo]

Could someone please tell me why on earth the English 'Onboard' announcements on the new 231/756 trains are read by someone with a very pronounced North Wales Accents? If you are going to have a regional accent why not use someone with a Valleys or Cardiff accent? I suspect the reason is most of the communications roles in TfW are mandated to be bi-lingual and hence most of the staff are from North Wales.

Next thing you know, we'll be having a discussion about whether the Welsh announcements on various parts of the network should be in Gog, Dde, Ddwyrain, or Gorllewin Gymraig. Or even garbled, bastardised Benfro. Isn't it all getting a bit silly?

(When I took Welsh lessons in Pembrokeshire, my Cardiff raised first-language Welsh speaking brother-in-law wanted to know why I was being taught to speak like a 'yokel'.)

 

[Jantra]

Next thing you know, we'll be having a discussion about whether the Welsh announcements on various parts of the network should be in Gog, Dde, Ddwyrain, or Gorllewin Gymraig. Or even garbled, bastardised Benfro. Isn't it all getting a bit silly?

(When I took Welsh lessons in Pembrokeshire, my Cardiff raised first-language Welsh speaking brother-in-law wanted to know why I was being taught to speak like a 'yokel'.)

The idea of train announcements is for the majority of people be easily able to understand them, not to announce a station where none of the locals even pronounce the way the train announcer says it, that is just plain stupid.
Here in Penarth, we had for several years a station announcements that said "Pen Barth", I have no idea where they dug that one up from!

 

[Mrwerdna1]

I think the easiest tweak to the system would be to follow the Swiss (not Belgian principle) of inverting the order of announcements depending on where the train is located. I understand that there can be a debate around where in Wales Welsh should be prioritised (personally, I think it would be easiest and simplest to keep everything within Wales Welsh first), but at a bare minimum, English announcements should come first when the TfW train is travelling in England. The latter makes complete sense.

The Swiss system is just so beautifully elegant. Not only does it invert the order of announcements (if it is a train travelling from the German part to the Frenh part, the order starts off: German, French, English - then flips to French, German, English, for trains travelling from the German part to the Italian part it is: German, Italian, English - then flips to Italian, German, English etc / vice-versa.), but the SBB announcement jingle preceeding the announcement is also inverted. They actually have a full jingle using the German, French and Italian variant in ads. In everyday use, you will only hear the jingle reflecting the specific region at stations and in the trains, whilst within that region. Genius. Nice and simple. Got to love how the Swiss run their railways...

 

[AY1975]

Do TfW guards and revenue protection staff say "tickets please" in Welsh first and then English when doing ticket checks? And if someone presents an invalid ticket but doesn't say anything, how do they decide which language to speak to that person in?

 

[AlterEgo]

Do TfW guards and revenue protection staff say "tickets please" in Welsh first and then English when doing ticket checks? And if someone presents an invalid ticket but doesn't say anything, how do they decide which language to speak to that person in?

There’s no requirement for staff to speak Welsh. The language act relates to public facing information such as websites, written signs, and correspondence.

 

[DelW]

Yes, really, Telford Canolog. And Birmingham Rhyngwladol.

Those seem needlessly confusing to me, since the names in that form won't be seen anywhere on or near those stations.

In phrases like "the central Telford station" or "the international Birmingham station" it's appropriate to translate those adjectives. But the Central and International are part of the station names, like Birmingham New Street or Bristol Temple Meads. It surely wouldn't be sensible to make literal word by word translations of them?

I think the issue is with the whole announcement being done in Welsh, then the whole announcement being done in English. I know not every announcement is a platform announcement for a Swansea to Crewe (via the HoWL) service (which has/had a minute-and-a-half of Welsh before the minute-and-a-half of English), but still...

What do you think of:

• The basic information (platform number, departure time, operator, destination) in Welsh
• Then the basic information (platform number, departure time, operator, destination) in English
• Then the calling points in Welsh
• Then the calling points in English
• Then any request stops in Welsh
• Then any request stops in English

(something like that?)

I noticed recently (prompting this post) that at least some TfW platform announcements and departure boards put both English and Welsh names (where they differ) in a single list in the order in which the train calls, which seems to me to be preferable to separate lists by language. This was for a Marches line train, where most but not all stations have different names in Welsh and English. So the order went something like:

• station 1 Welsh
• station 1 English
• station 2 Welsh
• station 2 English
• station 3 single common name
• station 4 Welsh
• station 4 English
• ... etc.

That seems to me to be a good practical solution. Arguably in England the English names ought to come first in each pair, but I don't think that's worth fighting over!

 

[zero]

Those seem needlessly confusing to me, since the names in that form won't be seen anywhere on or near those stations.

In phrases like "the central Telford station" or "the international Birmingham station" it's appropriate to translate those adjectives. But the Central and International are part of the station names, like Birmingham New Street or Bristol Temple Meads. It surely wouldn't be sensible to make literal word by word translations of them?

Is that really any different to translating proper nouns, as you won't see "Manceinion" or "Llundain" on any signs in the relevant stations either.

For the languages I know, I would instantly identify "International" as the intended English translation of the relevant word. I would guess that the same is true for Welsh speakers and "Rhyngwladol".