TFW North Wales - Should this service Switch to Manchester Victoria?

[FrodshamJnct]

I’ve just been reading on the Railways of North Wales FB group about a rumour doing the rounds of all TFW North Wales services switching to Manchester Victoria (away from Piccadilly) at the next timetable change.

Is there any truth to this? As some have mentioned on the FB post there would surely be far too much route learning to be done in time for the May change?

 

[Glenn1969]

if it happens it will be December

 

[Whistler40145]

Is this to reduce the bottleneck on the Manchester Piccadilly to Ordsall Lane Junction section?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Is this to reduce the bottleneck on the Manchester Piccadilly to Ordsall Lane Junction section?

I assume so, yes. I don’t know whether it would be for all TFW services or just services at peak times.

 

[PHILIPE]

How would the Airport be served ?

 

[Ianno87]

It's what Modern Railways suggests will happen.

Makes sense in concentrating both 'fast' Chester services at Victoria, and helps connections onwards to Leeds etc, that are probably more useful than those available at at Piccadilly (that can be achieved from Chester via other routes).

 

[Ianno87]

How would the Airport be served ?

It wouldn't. Though a same-platform connection would be possible at Newton-le-Willows, or over the bridge at Victoria (it would only be locations Runcorn East and beyond that would lose the direct link).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this to reduce the bottleneck on the Manchester Piccadilly to Ordsall Lane Junction section?

The other thing it would achieve is to remove another end-doored service from Piccadilly P13/14, leaving only the hourly EMT normally operated using end-doored units (not that the Northern random unit generator can't of course chuck them out on other stuff).

But I think in principle it's recognised that there need to be 2 or 3 services per hour removed from Castlefield to restore punctuality/reliability, and it's an easy bit of low-hanging fruit that isn't going to annoy too many people.

 

[Purple Orange]

.... and the three TPE end door services too. My personal experience of those trains so far on that stretch of line has been positive so far.

 

[clagmonster]

The other thing it would achieve is to remove another end-doored service from Piccadilly P13/14, leaving only the hourly EMT normally operated using end-doored units (not that the Northern random unit generator can't of course chuck them out on other stuff).

But I think in principle it's recognised that there need to be 2 or 3 services per hour removed from Castlefield to restore punctuality/reliability, and it's an easy bit of low-hanging fruit that isn't going to annoy too many people.

The TPE Newcastle - Airports largely use end doored 802s. In time, I believe that the plan is that the bulk of Redcar - Airport trains will use mark 5s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TPE Newcastle - Airports largely use end doored 802s. In time, I believe that the plan is that the bulk of Redcar - Airport trains will use mark 5s.

Fair point, though the advantage of those is their length and so number of doors, the TfW service is a short unit, typically 2 or 3-car. The door position makes much less difference when the train is not overcrowded.

 

[Flyingsprinter]

Is there enough capacity at Victoria for another terminating service from the west taking up at platform? Seems a bit of an iffy plan. Yes it will relive some congestion through castlefield but it will just move it to Victoria.

 

[Starmill]

This has been mooted for a rather long time. It hasn't happened because it's not an easy win.

Turning back at Manchester Victoria is difficult, going beyond to Stalybridge or Rochdale requires more resources, and the congestion relief benefits, while not zero, are not so very large as the train still negotiates Ordsall Lane and Salford Central.

Of course, this could all be solved now.

TfW also promised Bangor services to Manchester Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I half recall reading they're going to put a reversing siding in east of Vic for it?

 

[Ianno87]

This has been mooted for a rather long time. It hasn't happened because it's not an easy win.

Turning back at Manchester Victoria is difficult, going beyond to Stalybridge or Rochdale requires more resources, and the congestion relief benefits, while not zero, are not so very large as the train still negotiates Ordsall Lane and Salford Central.

Of course, this could all be solved now.

TfW also promised Bangor services to Manchester Airport.

Does it need more resources? The round trip time to, say, Stalybridge wouldn't be hugely different to the current Airport round trip timem

 

[The Planner]

Makes a massive difference to the ability to divert stuff when the WCML is shut too.

 

[krus_aragon]

TfW also promised Bangor services to Manchester Airport

In 2022, by which time TfW will be operating 197s with their doors-at-1/3s layout.

 

[notlob.divad]

This has been mooted several times and each time political pressure to keep North Wales connected to Manchester Airport wins out.

I think issues with turning it at Victoria are overblown given that it currently either spends 30 minutes sat in the Mayfield siding with the train crew trapped onboard, or doing a return trip to Manchester Airport. That would surely be enough time to get it up to Newton Heath to change ends. Then again I still see it as unlikely to happen due to my previous point.

 

[Glenn1969]

Send N Wales- Airport services via Crewe after Chester. Something has to be done to alleviate the congestion at Castlefield. I suspect this is a first step

 

[Bletchleyite]

Send N Wales- Airport services via Crewe after Chester

That would be the tail truly wagging the dog. The primary demand is to Manchester City Centre, not Ringway. The airport is a secondary terminus of convenience at present.

 

[Glenn1969]

Not according to most local politicians who see a direct Airport service as a badge of honour for their local authority area. Extending the Crewe- Chester shuttle at both ends is a way to placate them if paths can be found for it

 

[ys123]

Not according to most local politicians who see a direct Airport service as a badge of honour for their local authority area. Extending the Crewe- Chester shuttle at both ends is a way to placate them if paths can be found for it

Have a double train split ar Chester with one train going to Manchester and one going to the Airport via Crewe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have a double train split ar Chester with one train going to Manchester and one going to the Airport via Crewe.

That's an interesting option if 2-car units could be concentrated onto it, though I'm still not sure the demand actually exists.

 

[ys123]

That's an interesting option if 2-car units could be concentrated onto it, though I'm still not sure the demand actually exists.

A 2 car unit should be enough for the Chester to Manchester part as Northern also have a Chester to Manchester fast service (which continues to Leeds). Maybe if the Chester to the Airport via Crewe train would stop at Styal, demand would be overwhelming

I seem to recall reading a few years back about potentially linking the Airport to the Knutsford line (the slow Chester line). The Chester to the Airport train could then look like this
North Wales - Chester, at Chester the train splits:
1) Chester - Manchester
2) Chester to the Airport via Knutsford

 

[frodshamfella]

That would be the tail truly wagging the dog. The primary demand is to Manchester City Centre, not Ringway. The airport is a secondary terminus of convenience at present.

Totally agree, i've gone from Frodsham to Man Airport a few times, after Piccadilly there is hardly anyone on it.

 

[frodshamfella]

Not according to most local politicians who see a direct Airport service as a badge of honour for their local authority area. Extending the Crewe- Chester shuttle at both ends is a way to placate them if paths can be found for it

Why...there is already a Crewe to Manchester via Man Air. Most from Crewe to Chester shuttle are transferring for London.

 

[edwin_m]

Have a double train split ar Chester with one train going to Manchester and one going to the Airport via Crewe.

Reversing at Crewe would be a nightmare. From memory there's only one platform with access to both routes.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

As lovely as it is having a direct link from Llandudno to the airport, I often go via Crewe as even with an up to a half hour wait at Crewe I arrive quicker than taking the direct service, which is a bit crazy.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TfW don't have firm rights to the Airport, only to Piccadilly (a legacy of the way Airport services were contracted).
Typically, the northern interests (Mayors, TfN etc) think the TfW service should go to Victoria but nobody has asked WG!
TfW won't be in the least interested in going to Stalybridge (Northern go from Chester to Rochdale).

They shouldn't have closed Central! - that would fix the CLC stopping services through Castlefield Jn.
There's a whole viaduct going spare from Cornbrook (Metrolink only uses one of the two spans).

 

[jfollows]

Reversing at Crewe would be a nightmare. From memory there's only one platform with access to both routes.

Platform 6, I think.
There was such a service more than ten years ago, Chester-Crewe-Airport. At least you didn't need to check the departure boards at Crewe to find which platform it was using! I didn't live in Wilmslow at the time, but I'm not sure if even stopped at Wilmslow, and it only ran for one or perhaps two timetable years if my memory serves correctly. I can't imagine any way it could be resurrected without culling other calls at Crewe (eg the Liverpool-Euston services) to free up limited platform space.