TFW North Wales - Should this service Switch to Manchester Victoria?

[AndrewE]

Correct, platform 6 is the only one with access to both the Chester and Manchester lines at Crewe. What's an even bigger problem is the fact you'd need find another two windows to cross the WCML on the flat every hour. Either reason alone would probably be a deal breaker, but the two together.....

How long would it take to run the extra Chester-Crewe-Airport service via Gresty Lane and the independent lines then fast to Wilmslow now?
The extra Chester train is needed to get away from the current 20/40 minute intervals, a fast airport service could use platforms 11 or 12, it would certainly improve access by rail from the SW (and might be as quick as the current stopper,) and if 769s were used it would reduce diesel running a bit more.
The Chester services currently arrive in Crewe at about xx.20 and the slow airport trains leave at xx.16, so allowing for a traction change-over and the reversing move they could be fairly close arriving at the airport if that one was sent, but if an extra Chester train arrived around xx.40 then went to the airport it might work...

 

[Rhydgaled]

Do I detect just a hint of door-position prejudice here?

Just a hint. The door-position isn't the only reason I dread the 197s being built in large numbers. The ratio of toilets to seats (which fails to meet the Rail Delivery Group's best-practice) is a concern shared by nearly everyone I've talked to about them, as are the Fainsa seats. The seat pitch is less than a 175 but no extra seats are provided as a result and the number of table bays is reduced too. Not at all suitable for long-distance routes (some of them scenic) in my view.

 

[krus_aragon]

How long would it take to run the extra Chester-Crewe-Airport service via Gresty Lane and the independent lines then fast to Wilmslow now?

That'd be an interesting routeing, complete with reversal near Gresty Lane. I've no idea how slow it would be, but it'd surely warrant a mention on PSUL.

 

[AndrewE]

Only developing the thoughts in post #31, plus the need to avoid crossing N Junction on the flat.
I think a new pair of platforms on the Independents (for the Cardiff-Manchesters) is part of the plan to give extra capacity to make room for HS2 trains anyway...

 

[krus_aragon]

Only developing the thoughts in post #31, plus the need to avoid crossing N Junction on the flat.

Of course.

I think a new pair of platforms on the Independents (for the Cardiff-Manchesters) is part of the plan to give extra capacity to make room for HS2 trains anyway...

That could work eventually (using the Chester Independent lines to access the new platforms, and reversing there) but it'll depend on the strategy chosen for rebuilding Crewe for HS2. (I thought that rebuilding the independent lines and platform 12 area for HS2 services instead would have been a "goer", but apparently it's not one of the final options under consideration. See this thread for further details.)

 

[craigybagel]

That'd be an interesting routeing, complete with reversal near Gresty Lane. I've no idea how slow it would be, but it'd surely warrant a mention on PSUL.

Very slow. Especially as it's 10mph through the independent lines. I'm also struggling to think of a move from the platforms to the independents that is signalled to passenger standards.

 

[The Planner]

Only developing the thoughts in post #31, plus the need to avoid crossing N Junction on the flat.
I think a new pair of platforms on the Independents (for the Cardiff-Manchesters) is part of the plan to give extra capacity to make room for HS2 trains anyway...

Wouldn't hold your breath on that one...

 

[notlob.divad]

It's a shame the mixed-TOC train approach (eg. ScotRail+Northern Glasgow-Carlisle-Newcastle) isn't more-widely used. If you could apply that here, it might be possible to kill two birds with one stone. Could either of the TPE Manchester Airport - Victoria - Leeds - Redcar/Newcastle services map onto TfW's Chester-Manchester paths? If so, you could replace Llandudno-Man-air and Man-air-(Redcar/Newscastle) with a through Llandudno-Redcar/Newcastle service via Manchester Victoria. This would:

• remove 2tph from the Castlefield corridor
• remove 2tph from the Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport route (which I think the Modern Railways article was saying is also too congested)
• only remove 1tph from the Ordsall Chord (so that it is still used and doesn't become abandoned infrustructure), with 1 TPE per hour retained between Newcastle OR Redcar and Manchester Airport
  
• avoid the need to terminate trains in Manchester Victoria (thus avoiding concerns of limited platform/turnback capacity)

Of course it does run the risk of importing delays from the ECML to north Wales and vice versa, but I think it would be a net improvement once you consider that it frees up two paths in the delay amplifier that is the Castlefield corridor.

Assuming you can match the TfW path to a TPE at Manchester Victoria, the only problem is that it takes away the one TfW route on which the class 197s would not be a complete disaster (other than Crewe-Chester, Crewe-Shrewsbury and Conwy Valley which is at most 5 diagrams (if they increase frequency on two of those routes), more likely 3).

Do I detect just a hint of door-position prejudice here?

But yes, this does seem a reasonable idea in principle, and there have been through North Wales-TPE services before. I doubt it'll happen, though, because of the differing jurisdictions.

There must be a really good oppurtunity to re-map the following services:
1 Redcar(Middlesborough) -> Manchester Airport TPE is scheduled to go through Water Street Junction, immediately before the TFW Llandudno-> Manchester Airport
2 Manchester Airport -> Redcar TPE is scheduled to go through Water Street Junction immediately after the Manchester Airport -> Llandudno TFW
3 The Leeds-Chester and Chester-Leeds services which cross at Ordsall Lane junction within minutes of each other.
(It takes about 30 minutes each way between Ordsall Lane and Manchester Airport) and the Llandudno services currently cross within 5 minutes of each other at Chester.

Therefore the TPEs could be rerouted to Chester in the paths of the Llandudno service, with a proper layover in Chester (or even push on to Wrexham)
The TFW service to/from Llandudno could switch into the path of the Leeds-Chester service and continue to the airport, where a proper layover could be allowed for.
The Leeds<->Chester could be cut back to the Bay platforms at Manchester Victoria which would save a couple of DMUs off the Calder Valley diagrams to strengthen / cascade elswhere.

A decent connection onto the Newcastle <-> Airport trains at Darlington for people travelling from the Teeside area who don't want to change in Manchester, everyone wins and we remove a train fron Castlefield.

 

[AndrewE]

There must be a really good oppurtunity to re-map the following services:
1 Redcar(Middlesborough) -> Manchester Airport TPE is scheduled to go through Water Street Junction, immediately before the TFW Llandudno-> Manchester Airport
2 Manchester Airport -> Redcar TPE is scheduled to go through Water Street Junction immediately after the Manchester Airport -> Llandudno TFW
3 The Leeds-Chester and Chester-Leeds services which cross at Ordsall Lane junction within minutes of each other.
(It takes about 30 minutes each way between Ordsall Lane and Manchester Airport) and the Llandudno services currently cross within 5 minutes of each other at Chester.

Therefore the TPEs could be rerouted to Chester in the paths of the Llandudno service, with a proper layover in Chester (or even push on to Wrexham)
The TFW service to/from Llandudno could switch into the path of the Leeds-Chester service and continue to the airport, where a proper layover could be allowed for.
The Leeds<->Chester could be cut back to the Bay platforms at Manchester Victoria which would save a couple of DMUs off the Calder Valley diagrams to strengthen / cascade elswhere.

A decent connection onto the Newcastle <-> Airport trains at Darlington for people travelling from the Teeside area who don't want to change in Manchester, everyone wins and we remove a train from Castlefield.

That's far too sensible! (so it is yet another thing that will not happen)

Wouldn't hold your breath on that one...[A new Chester to Manchester airport service via Crewe, Gresty Lane and the independent lines]

I was thinking that it was a relatively cheap work-around that could answer quite a few needs...

Very slow. Especially as it's 10mph through the independent lines.

No worse than the approaches to Southport then,

I'm also struggling to think of a move from the platforms to the independents that is signalled to passenger standards.

and I'm sure the signalling could be tweaked, after all it was done (passenger running on the independents) during the station remodelling.

 

[craigybagel]

No worse than the approaches to Southport then, and I'm sure the signalling could be tweaked, after all it was done (passenger running on the independents) during the station remodelling.

But does the 10mph on the approach to Southport extend as far as the length of the independent lines that would need using?

It's not the signalling in the independents that needs altering, but there is no turn back facility at Gresty for passenger trains to use them having left the station. I'm sure it could be fixed, yes, but it's just another obstacle to what is already a rather harebrained scheme.

 

[Eccles1983]

So take a service that actually works in the TFW one, and replace it with one from the worst performing TOC in the north? Apart from that you've just blew a massive hole in TFW's finances.

And where are you getting a layover at Wrexham?

Have fun getting that all that past the Welsh government.

 

[Class 170101]

A key question here is who should have access to Manchester Piccadilly. Personally I believe commuter and local services have a much better claim on P13/14 than connecting here there and everywhere to Manchester Airport. Both Pic and Vic have good connections to the Airport and direct links are not sustainable. For me, Southport and TfW services should go to Victoria and Alderley Edge into the main shed at Pic. TPE Redcar/Newcastle to airport could also go, but this then creates an issue of connectivity from Vic to the airport and where do they go as P1/2 aren't useable and Northern hog the turn back siding.

I would suggest diverting the Blackpool North to Hazel Grove and Southport to Alderley Edge via Manchester Victoria and Denton to Stockport (served by Class 769s) rather than via Manchester Piccadilly. Thats two paths per hour each way removed through Castlefield.

The final 3rd path would be a TPE service diverted away from Victoria and routed via the main shed at Piccadilly and reverse to the Airport instead of touring from the east, around Manchester and thence to the Airport.

 

[jfollows]

I would suggest diverting the Blackpool North to Hazel Grove and Southport to Alderley Edge via Manchester Victoria and Denton to Stockport (served by Class 769s) rather than via Manchester Piccadilly.

I would love the latter, if only because it would be a nice alternative to get to Manchester Victoria for people like me from the south of Manchester. Victoria is increasingly better for serving Manchester these days given recent developments, in fact my dentist is now in Salford, having moved from St. John Street off Deansgate.

 

[JonathanH]

I would suggest diverting the Blackpool North to Hazel Grove and Southport to Alderley Edge via Manchester Victoria and Denton to Stockport (served by Class 769s) rather than via Manchester Piccadilly. Thats two paths per hour each way removed through Castlefield.

...and a conflict at Stockport, single line working via Denton, a non-electrified route and there isn't capacity at Victoria. They aren't ordering enough 769s and they would have less capacity than a 6-331 formation. Complete non-starter.

 

[Geeves]

Plenty of trains coming off the Denton line all day long so clearly there are paths if not a huge amount

One easy way to stop all the moaning about who gets the connection would be to get rid of all of them and route the long distance trains away to other towns with poor services. Does Redcar for example really need a direct train to the airport??

4 trains an hour 2 each to Vic via the chord and Picc main station would be more than enough, you could run the shuttles as 6 car trains seeing as we going to be swimming in 3 car EMUS in the not too distant future. There are plenty of airports where the local trains do all the work with out any hassle and people just change.

Anyway getting back to TfW, the extention to Staly is one Ive heard as well for connections onward to Leeds. Its not a huge amount of route learning either. Potentially they could remove the shuttle from Vic and free up a platform at Vic too and run the TfW in its place. Ashton u Lyne direct to N Wales anyone?

 

[Ianno87]

...and a conflict at Stockport, single line working via Denton, a non-electrified route and there isn't capacity at Victoria. They aren't ordering enough 769s and they would have less capacity than a 6-331 formation. Complete non-starter.

Plus far, far too long a journey time impact in reaching Victoria vice Piccadilly. Will have nobody on it.

Should be kept via Castlefield as it is a through electric service with 1/3 and 2/3 doors, which is what is needed.

This is not an exercise in crayoning trains over 'rare' routes for enthusiast interest.

 

[scrapy]

I've been told today from a very reliable source in Northerns planning team that Liverpool to Crewe will be split from hopefully December possibly May next year. It will return to being Piccadilly to Crewe and Liverpool to Stalybridge. The current Man Vic to Stalybridge will end. Liverpool to Stalybridge to be operated by 319 flex trains (class 769). Training of instructors at Lime St already underway, so not being left to last minute and drivers will maintain competency with empty stock moves to and from Wigan/Allerton in the meantime.

I therefore have doubts that the TFW service will be routed to Victoria as it would mean complete loss of any service to Oxford Rd or Piccadilly from Newton le Willows and I think TFW would struggle for paths through Vic and to Staly.

 

[175001]

Lime St drivers have learned Stalybridge again and do a few trips from Victoria since December

 

[Purple Orange]

Plenty of trains coming off the Denton line all day long so clearly there are paths if not a huge amount

One easy way to stop all the moaning about who gets the connection would be to get rid of all of them and route the long distance trains away to other towns with poor services. Does Redcar for example really need a direct train to the airport??

4 trains an hour 2 each to Vic via the chord and Picc main station would be more than enough, you could run the shuttles as 6 car trains seeing as we going to be swimming in 3 car EMUS in the not too distant future. There are plenty of airports where the local trains do all the work with out any hassle and people just change.

Anyway getting back to TfW, the extention to Staly is one Ive heard as well for connections onward to Leeds. Its not a huge amount of route learning either. Potentially they could remove the shuttle from Vic and free up a platform at Vic too and run the TfW in its place. Ashton u Lyne direct to N Wales anyone?

The underlying question there is not about Redcar, but does Leeds need more or less than 2 tph to Manchester Airport? The fact that one train goes onwards to Redcar and another to Newcastle is irrelevant. I would say it should have a minimum of 2 tph to the airport, which is not a fantastic provision to begin with, when you put it in the context of services from the west.

Similarly, we can ask the same question about Liverpool and Preston:

Does Liverpool need 5 tph through the Castlefield Corridor? (2 to Oxford Rd, 2 to the airport and 1 to Nottingham?)

Does Preston need 4 tph through P13 & P14 (3 tph to the airport and 1 to Stockport)?

Should P14 be used for any trains heading to the east?

Should all TPE airport services go back to reversing in Piccadilly and what services would that action displace from the main shed?

The TfW extension to Leeds is an interesting one when put in the context of future NPR service provision. If Manchester-Leeds is to have 8 tph, perhaps one or two could start from Chester or North Wales.

Additionally, if we are to route more services to Victoria, could the Cardiff services be routed there to avoid Stockport-Piccadilly and come in to Manchester from the West?

 

[JonathanH]

Additionally, if we are to route more services to Victoria, could the Cardiff services be routed there to avoid Stockport-Piccadilly and come in to Manchester from the West?

With the current infrastructure, the idea of sending anything via Denton to Manchester Victoria is not feasible or practical. The journey time from Stockport to Manchester Victoria is too uncompetitive.

Sending TfW Cardiff trains that way would mean an additional unit is required relative to running into Piccadilly. Is that a good use of that rolling stock?

Does Liverpool need 5 tph through the Castlefield Corridor? (2 to Oxford Rd, 2 to the airport and 1 to Nottingham?)

Four of them can't go to any other route.

 

[Purple Orange]

With the current infrastructure, the idea of sending anything via Denton to Manchester Victoria is not feasible or practical. The journey time from Stockport to Manchester Victoria is too uncompetitive.

Sending TfW Cardiff trains that way would mean an additional unit is required relative to running into Piccadilly. Is that a good use of that rolling stock?

I wasn’t meaning East via Denton, but west, heading north towards Warrington from Crewe, then in to Manchester from the west.

 

[Greybeard33]

I've been told today from a very reliable source in Northerns planning team that Liverpool to Crewe will be split from hopefully December possibly May next year. It will return to being Piccadilly to Crewe and Liverpool to Stalybridge. The current Man Vic to Stalybridge will end. Liverpool to Stalybridge to be operated by 319 flex trains (class 769). Training of instructors at Lime St already underway, so not being left to last minute and drivers will maintain competency with empty stock moves to and from Wigan/Allerton in the meantime.

I therefore have doubts that the TFW service will be routed to Victoria as it would mean complete loss of any service to Oxford Rd or Piccadilly from Newton le Willows and I think TFW would struggle for paths through Vic and to Staly.

If the TfW service is diverted to Stalybridge, it would have to take the Victoria - Stalybridge paths of the current Southport - Stalybridge service, not the Victoria - Stalybridge shuttle (which is in the opposite half hour). Therefore diverting the Northern Liverpool - Crewe service to Stalybridge is really an alternative to splitting the Southport - Alderley Edge service (these two services cross Manchester at roughly the same time), but in either case the TfW service could also be diverted to remove a second path through Castlefield (and reduce platform congestion at the Airport).

To avoid TfW crews learning Stalybridge, maybe the N Wales service could be diverted to Crewe, taking the paths of the Chester - Crewe shuttle, and join to/split from the S Wales - Piccadilly service in Crewe Platform 6 (the timings more or less match up). The combined portions could run in the current S Wales paths between Crewe and Piccadilly via Stockport. N Wales and Chester would still have a through service to Piccadilly, but Airport passengers would have to change.

Northern could then operate a Chester - Stalybridge service in the current TfW paths.

 

[Ianno87]

With the current infrastructure, the idea of sending anything via Denton to Manchester Victoria is not feasible or practical. The journey time from Stockport to Manchester Victoria is too uncompetitive.

Sending TfW Cardiff trains that way would mean an additional unit is required relative to running into Piccadilly. Is that a good use of that rolling stock?

You may as well just chop the Cardiff at Crewe and be done with it. Routeing it into Victoria basically will lose any point of it being a through service. Not that any problem would be particularly 'solved' bu such a rerouteing.

 

[edwin_m]

To avoid TfW crews learning Stalybridge, maybe the N Wales service could be diverted to Crewe, taking the paths of the Chester - Crewe shuttle, and join to/split from the S Wales - Piccadilly service in Crewe Platform 6 (the timings more or less match up). The combined portions could run in the current S Wales paths between Crewe and Piccadilly via Stockport. N Wales and Chester would still have a through service to Piccadilly, but Airport passengers would have to change.

Interesting thought, but I fear it is asking for trouble to schedule a join of two trains that have come such a long distance, which can only happen in one specific platform that is also heavily used by other services.

 

[craigybagel]

If the TfW service is diverted to Stalybridge, it would have to take the Victoria - Stalybridge paths of the current Southport - Stalybridge service, not the Victoria - Stalybridge shuttle (which is in the opposite half hour). Therefore diverting the Northern Liverpool - Crewe service to Stalybridge is really an alternative to splitting the Southport - Alderley Edge service (these two services cross Manchester at roughly the same time), but in either case the TfW service could also be diverted to remove a second path through Castlefield (and reduce platform congestion at the Airport).

To avoid TfW crews learning Stalybridge, maybe the N Wales service could be diverted to Crewe, taking the paths of the Chester - Crewe shuttle, and join to/split from the S Wales - Piccadilly service in Crewe Platform 6 (the timings more or less match up). The combined portions could run in the current S Wales paths between Crewe and Piccadilly via Stockport. N Wales and Chester would still have a through service to Piccadilly, but Airport passengers would have to change.

Northern could then operate a Chester - Stalybridge service in the current TfW paths.

Interesting thought, but I fear it is asking for trouble to schedule a join of two trains that have come such a long distance, which can only happen in one specific platform that is also heavily used by other services.

Not a hope they'd get permission to do that, the performance risks at Crewe would be staggering.

In any case, you also have the issue of what do you do with the Chester to Manchester leg of the North Wales service you've just removed?

 

[craigybagel]

I wasn’t meaning East via Denton, but west, heading north towards Warrington from Crewe, then in to Manchester from the west.

You can do that, but bear in mind whenever TFW services are diverted that way, they can only get as far as Oxford Road, rather then Piccadilly. Even then they have pretty tight turnaround times. Running to Victoria would have similar issues.

 

[krus_aragon]

In any case, you also have the issue of what do you do with the Chester to Manchester leg of the North Wales service you've just removed?

I suspect that when Greybeard said:

Northern could then operate a Chester - Stalybridge service in the current TfW paths.

they intended that to be its replacement, in addition to their Chester - Leeds service.

 

[craigybagel]

I suspect that when Greybeard said:

they intended that to be its replacement, in addition to their Chester - Leeds service.

Ah yes, I missed that bit sorry.

 

[Eccles1983]

Then Chester gets clogged up again with another layover service.

It's already got the Leeds, Liverpool's, crew shuttles and pic via Stockport services in the bays at various times. So a 5th service into 3 bays isn't going to work. The east junction would need a complete remodeling to cope, and/or another bay added at that end.

Nevermind that you've now took a reliable service and given it to a very unreliable company, and added another change of train to passengers from north Wales. So they go from having a direct service to now having to do 2 changes to get to the airport.

All of this when just running a TPE or two into the shed at Piccadilly would be easier to do.

 

[Purple Orange]

If diverting the TPE airport services from Newcastle and Redcar in to the Picc main shed took place, what services would be hampered by this happening and the TPE crossing over the statin throat again?