TfW possible timetable changes and rolling stock cascades connected with the introduction of 197 units

[Esker-pades]

Aren't TfW working on a new timetable for December 2022 with the introduction of mk4 coaches on the Manchester to South Wales route?

Yes, some change is happening in Dec '22

 

[Rhydgaled]

Ideally I’d d like to see TFW get another rake or two of mark 4 carriages and run all the Manchester services to Swansea. Swanline would be a hourly separate stopping service using 197’s unless electrification happens

Given that even just Manchester to Cardiff every two hours requires four rakes, 'another rake or two' would be nowhere near sufficient to cover Manchester-Swansea hourly, even if there were more mark 4s spare.

I like the concept though; if I had been in a suitable position of influence I would have bid an hourly 5 coach service between Swansea and Manchester with end-door stock or put it in the franchise spec as a requirement.

The only other possible option is to have an hourly Cardiff-Carmarthen but making Swanline stops every other hour (or even hourly if Swanline is to be hourly in the future?) and keep this separate to the Manchester-Swansea service every 2 hours.

I don't understand; why would it have to do Swanline stops?

I'm assuming the 15 minute turnaround in Manchester is fixed owing to the limited paths across the WCML at Crewe. If that's the case, to fit in you're left with some very long turnarounds in Wales. Even turning at Cardiff the turn arounds aren't that far short of an hour.

If the timings in Manchester are fixed and if, as has been suggested, the mark 4s are in Manchester on the even hours and only go as far as Cardiff then I've estimated the turnaround time in Cardiff to be over an hour, eg:

10:30 depart Manchester Piccadilly
13:40 arrive Cardiff Central (running time 3hr 10min)
14:58 depart Cardiff Central
18:13 arrive Manchester Piccadilly (running time 3hr 15min)

The turnaround in Cardiff there is 1hr 18min. Have I got something wrong? Perhaps I should have added the 5mins Public Performance Measure allowance onto the southbound workings as well, then both directions would be 3hr 15min).

Of course, with an hourly service between MAN and CDF you could send the set back north at 13:58 and turnround in just 18 minutes (13 if I had added the southbound PPM allowance), but then it wouldn't get back to Manchester in an even hour.

 

[craigybagel]

I don't understand; why would it have to do Swanline stops?

Presumably because you'd otherwise end up with 3 Cardiff - Swansea semi - fasts every hour (Manchester - Swansea, Cardiff - Carmarthen and London - Swansea) with Swanline on top, which would be a bit excessive.

If the timings in Manchester are fixed and if, as has been suggested, the mark 4s are in Manchester on the even hours and only go as far as Cardiff then I've estimated the turnaround time in Cardiff to be over an hour, eg:

10:30 depart Manchester Piccadilly
13:40 arrive Cardiff Central (running time 3hr 10min)
14:58 depart Cardiff Central
18:13 arrive Manchester Piccadilly (running time 3hr 15min)

The turnaround in Cardiff there is 1hr 18min. Have I got something wrong? Perhaps I should have added the 5mins Public Performance Measure allowance onto the southbound workings as well, then both directions would be 3hr 15min).

Of course, with an hourly service between MAN and CDF you could send the set back north at 13:58 and turnround in just 18 minutes (13 if I had added the southbound PPM allowance), but then it wouldn't get back to Manchester in an even hour.

It varies from hour to hour but in some cases you would indeed end up with a turnaround longer than an hour. That said I wouldn't read too much into current journey times as we don't know what the stopping pattern for the MKIVs will be - or if the questions over what speed they can run at in the future have been resolved or not.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Presumably because you'd otherwise end up with 3 Cardiff - Swansea semi - fasts every hour (Manchester - Swansea, Cardiff - Carmarthen and London - Swansea) with Swanline on top, which would be a bit excessive.

Ok, fair point; I missed the bit about Manchester-Swansea running seperate from Cardiff-Carmarthen but I can't see why it would need to do that (possibly relating to the assumptions I've made regarding stopping patterns and journey times between MAN and CDF). As far as I can tell, with the 3hr 10/15min running times between CDF and MAN I assumed above, the following would work (albeit with some lengthy turnround times, including the 1hr 18min noted above for the mark 4s in Cardiff), allowing Swanline to be seperate:

South/West Bound

• 0.5tph Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central (mark 4)
• 0.5tph Cardiff Central to Milford Haven (connection off mark 4 service)
• 0.5tph Manchester Piccadilly to Carmarthen

East/North Bound

• 0.5tph Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly
• 0.5tph Carmarthen to Cardiff Central (connection into mark 4 service)
• 0.5tph Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly (mark 4)

Thus, the multiple unit diagrams would do:

• Manchester to Carmarthen
• Carmarthen to Cardiff
• Cardiff to Milford Haven
• Milford Haven to Manchester

For simplicity in trying to work this out I've ignored the portion working to provide the necessary longer trains east of Swansea. That said, the generous turnround times should be sufficient to insert a few minutes into the schedue at Llanelli to allow a strenthening unit to be attached/detached there every hour. These strengthening units would thus be able to return from whence they came, ie. two sets of diagrams (one doing Manchester to Llanelli and return, the other doing Cardiff to Llanelli and return).

 

[krus_aragon]

For simplicity in trying to work this out I've ignored the portion working to provide the necessary longer trains east of Swansea. That said, the generous turnround times should be sufficient to insert a few minutes into the schedue at Llanelli to allow a strenthening unit to be attached/detached there every hour. These strengthening units would thus be able to return from whence they came, ie. two sets of diagrams (one doing Manchester to Llanelli and return, the other doing Cardiff to Llanelli and return).

When I last did some spreadsheet diagramming, I had the units detaching at Swansea instead (3-car with 1st Class terminating, 2-car continuing west). This wouldn't work with any hypothetical Swansea District routeing, of course.

 

[Rhydgaled]

When I last did some spreadsheet diagramming, I had the units detaching at Swansea instead (3-car with 1st Class terminating, 2-car continuing west). This wouldn't work with any hypothetical Swansea District routeing, of course.

I suggested detatching at Llanelli largely because I was struggling to get my head around whether there would be issues with unit(s) being in the wrong platform at Swansea or ending up in the wrong order. However, having first class in the 3-car units causes an issue since I don't think a 2-car unit by itself provides enough capacity, particularly in the peaks (when, based on pre-COVID loadings, running all 5 coaches to Llanelli could be really handy). Even off-peak, it could do with being at least 3 coaches at least as far as Carmarthen (pre-COVID, I've seen some 3-car 175s fill up nicely at Haverfordwest on Saturday mornings, I think it was the service around 09:20)

I wouldn't route any Cardiff-Carmarthen/Pembrokeshire services via the Swansea District (SDL) anyway if the only stock available to me was 197s. The expresses to Cardiff I've long desired to see via the SDL would call at Llanelli, Morriston Tawe Valley Parkway (if built) and Port Talbot Parkway only - it just doesn't make sense to me to use stock optimised for short dwell times above all* else as the 197s are on long-distance limited-stop services. The only thing I'd want to see 197s (or similar) doing on the SDL is Swansea Metro services serving all stations (including several new stations) on routes such as Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen-Morriston-Bridgend and Llanelli-Morriston-Swansea (via Jersey Marine and new link-line proposed by Mark Barry and (I think) someone from Greengauge21 a few years ago) and really the units for that could do with a pantograph or at least passive provision for one.

* ok, maybe that word 'all' there is a little excessive

 

[Jez]

Seems to be some information now on Real Time Trains after the December TT change. Seems most of the departures from Manchester on the even hour will terminate at Cardiff Central apart from the 1630 which goes to Swansea. On the odd hour they go to Carmarthen (still Tenby on the 1331 and Cardiff on the 1731). Last through train Manchester to Swansea is 1630 and further West 1531.

Going up its the other way around and the Milfords will go to Manchester then the other hour they will start at Cardiff with a Carmarthen-Cardiff. There is an extra Swansea to Manchester just before 6am. This one used to go via the district line from Carmarthen to Manchester arriving there around 1015.

Seems to be some short connection times at Cardiff which is a shame but I expected they are limited what they can do with the fixed paths between Manchester and Crewe and Cardiff and Swansea. It would be a shame if you had to start off half an hour earlier to connect at Caridff if it wasn't a valid connection. Some of the evening connections look OK. e.g about a 25 minute connection from the 1830 into the Carmarthen train.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Seems to be some information now on Real Time Trains after the December TT change. Seems most of the departures from Manchester on the even hour will terminate at Cardiff Central apart from the 1630 which goes to Swansea. On the odd hour they go to Carmarthen (still Tenby on the 1331 and Cardiff on the 1731). Last through train Manchester to Swansea is 1630 and further West 1531.

Going up its the other way around and the Milfords will go to Manchester then the other hour they will start at Cardiff with a Carmarthen-Cardiff. There is an extra Swansea to Manchester just before 6am. This one used to go via the district line from Carmarthen to Manchester arriving there around 1015.

Seems to be some short connection times at Cardiff which is a shame but I expected they are limited what they can do with the fixed paths between Manchester and Crewe and Cardiff and Swansea. It would be a shame if you had to start off half an hour earlier to connect at Caridff if it wasn't a valid connection. Some of the evening connections look OK. e.g about a 25 minute connection from the 1830 into the Carmarthen train.

Most of them only go through to Cardiff now due to the introduction of extra 67/Mk4 sets. On the even hours off Manchester they will run, terminate at Cardiff and connect with a stopper to Milford. In the odd hours, 197s run to Carmarthen, then Cardiff to connect with a Mk4, then back to Milford, then up to Manchester. If you see the timing load on the services they will alternate between DMU and Diesel loco trailing 245 tonnes. The Mk4s won't be introduced all at once but will slowly be introduced onto all the diagrams. As 197s are not expected to start until next year yet, the alternate hours will probably be 175s or other units until 197s are in full swing.

 

[Jez]

I hope when the proper timetable is released there are still valid connections from West of Cardiff to Manchester. What was the 0955 from Swansea to Manchester has recently been reduced to Cardiff with a connection but journey planner says to travel on the previous train making the journey around half an hour longer !

 

[Rhydgaled]

But why on earth wouldn’t you retain the 175s in addition to this new order of 197s and have the capacity of both fleets? Its never made sense to me.

Who would maintain them?

Off the top of my head, without having time to check if the numbers work out I might suggest something like this:

• Keep the 24 class 158s at Machynlleth, for Cambrian services
• Redeploy the 27 class 175s to Swansea Landore, for Heart Of Wales and Pembrokeshire services, and for running in pairs (5-car sets) alongside mark 4s on Swansea-Manchester
• CAF Civity bi-mode fleet (similar to the 197s but with softer seats and a pantograph) based at Chester (65 or more vehicles, possibly fewer units in longer formations than the current plans) running 2tph all-stations services between Chester and Llandudno (1tph starting back from Liverpool, possibly with a portion for Wrexham/Oswestry)

Not sure what could run the Chester-Wrexham-Cardiff and north Wales coast fast services though.

 

[Caaardiff]

Off the top of my head, without having time to check if the numbers work out I might suggest something like this:

• Keep the 24 class 158s at Machynlleth, for Cambrian services
• Redeploy the 27 class 175s to Swansea Landore, for Heart Of Wales and Pembrokeshire services, and for running in pairs (5-car sets) alongside mark 4s on Swansea-Manchester
• CAF Civity bi-mode fleet (similar to the 197s but with softer seats and a pantograph) based at Chester (65 or more vehicles, possibly fewer units in longer formations than the current plans) running 2tph all-stations services between Chester and Llandudno (1tph starting back from Liverpool, possibly with a portion for Wrexham/Oswestry)

Not sure what could run the Chester-Wrexham-Cardiff and north Wales coast fast services though.

Oh do give it a rest.
The poster was asking about keeping the 175s along with the current 197 order. The 197s are coming. Get used to it. Stop boring us with your repetitive drivel. 158s are going.
It makes no sense to keep the 175s either. It would be lovely for capacity, but operationally its not worth it.

 

[507020]

It would be lovely for capacity

I think that was the whole point of the post. 197s are coming yes, but 175s are too good to be scrapped.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Oh do give it a rest.
The poster was asking about keeping the 175s along with the current 197 order. The 197s are coming. Get used to it. Stop boring us with your repetitive drivel. 158s are going.
It makes no sense to keep the 175s either. It would be lovely for capacity, but operationally its not worth it.

Worded perfectly. **Chef’s kiss.**

 

[RobShipway]

Off the top of my head, without having time to check if the numbers work out I might suggest something like this:

• Keep the 24 class 158s at Machynlleth, for Cambrian services
• Redeploy the 27 class 175s to Swansea Landore, for Heart Of Wales and Pembrokeshire services, and for running in pairs (5-car sets) alongside mark 4s on Swansea-Manchester
• CAF Civity bi-mode fleet (similar to the 197s but with softer seats and a pantograph) based at Chester (65 or more vehicles, possibly fewer units in longer formations than the current plans) running 2tph all-stations services between Chester and Llandudno (1tph starting back from Liverpool, possibly with a portion for Wrexham/Oswestry)

Not sure what could run the Chester-Wrexham-Cardiff and north Wales coast fast services though.

Oh do give it a rest.
The poster was asking about keeping the 175s along with the current 197 order. The 197s are coming. Get used to it. Stop boring us with your repetitive drivel. 158s are going.
It makes no sense to keep the 175s either. It would be lovely for capacity, but operationally its not worth it.

I think that was the whole point of the post. 197s are coming yes, but 175s are too good to be scrapped.

Time will tell what will happen with the class 175 units. But as 507020 says, the class 175 units are too good to be scrapped as is the class 158 units used by TFW.

I would suspect that both the TFW class 158 units and the class 175 units to go to other operators. The 158's could possibly go to either GWR, Northern or SWR. However, I do wonder if some of the TFW class 158 units may make their way to Southern for a few years if further class 171 units end up going to EMR. Prior to any better replacement.

With regards the class 175 units, I am really not sure as to what TOC they could be going too. The only possibly solution, is if they could be used by Grand Central in some way on any future routes other than the London King's Cross to Sunderland route, which I would suspect will stay being operated by class 180 units.

But as Caaardiff says the class 197 units are most certainly coming, it is just that you may find there is more seats on the service, but less toilets!

 

[Dr Day]

Are we likely to see any speeding up of station-station timings as a result of the use of class 197s?