Thames Valley - XC at Didcot and local services

[TheWalrus]

Hi all

There's two things I wanted to bring up on the forum regarding services between Reading and Oxford.

One was the frequency of services. There are currently 2tph stopping services from London-Oxford. How well loaded are these during the day? I would propose an hourly semi-fast service from London-Oxford calling at: Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring, Cholsey, Didcot, Appleford(2 hourly calls) Culham and Radley. However this would increase to half-hourly at peak times, as is currently.

The second is to call Reading-Newcastle services at Didcot, in order to replace the 1tph to Oxford it will lose, and also provide direct connections to the North. This proposal will also benefit Swindon and Chippenham, as customers from these stations would only need to change once to travel to Birmingham and the North.

So what does everyone think of these proposals? I will accept all feedback! And all questions welcome!

 

[The Planner]

XC won't go back to Didcot, they are another TOC obsessed with journey time and it's too much of a time penalty for them. Even with the change at Oxford, Didcot has a more or less half hourly service to the North anyway. You only need to change once if you go from Swindon and Chippenham anyway.

 

[TheWalrus]

XC won't go back to Didcot, they are another TOC obsessed with journey time and it's too much of a time penalty for them. Even with the change at Oxford, Didcot has a more or less half hourly service to the North anyway. You only need to change once if you go from Swindon and Chippenham anyway.

How much is the time penalty? I reckoned about 5? If XC could use the fast lines between RDG and DID, couldn't they recouperate time that way? and also the approach out of didcot is very slow, couldn't that be made a little bit quicker?

And would that be via Reading or Bristol?

 

[The Planner]

There is a Padd Swansea right up their backsides I think on the Newcastles so that why they get shifted to the slows. If the XC used the fasts it would knock the FGW behind it when it crossed at Didcot East.

 

[route:oxford]

There is a Padd Swansea right up their backsides I think on the Newcastles so that why they get shifted to the slows. If the XC used the fasts it would knock the FGW behind it when it crossed at Didcot East.

On occasion, I've been on a delayed XC service that has been routed on the fasts between Diddyland and Reading.

The most memorable one was on a late running XC service, perhaps it was just luck with the pathing, but it had a clear run from Oxford to Reading. Journey time - 18 minutes.

Might sound a bit silly, but the Voyagers (or their drivers) do seem to enjoy being "let off the leash" with a shot on the GWML fasts.

 

[Greenback]

Hi all

There's two things I wanted to bring up on the forum regarding services between Reading and Oxford.

One was the frequency of services. There are currently 2tph stopping services from London-Oxford. How well loaded are these during the day? I would propose an hourly semi-fast service from London-Oxford calling at: Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring, Cholsey, Didcot, Appleford(2 hourly calls) Culham and Radley. However this would increase to half-hourly at peak times, as is currently.

The second is to call Reading-Newcastle services at Didcot, in order to replace the 1tph to Oxford it will lose, and also provide direct connections to the North. This proposal will also benefit Swindon and Chippenham, as customers from these stations would only need to change once to travel to Birmingham and the North.

So what does everyone think of these proposals? I will accept all feedback! And all questions welcome!

I'm not keen on the reduction of services to the stations between Reading and Didcot to be honest. We sold a lot of tickets at Reading for these places, and, presumably, even more for the journeys to Reading from them! Add in the traffic between them and Didcot/Oxford, and the reduction to hourly trains would cause at least some of the current traffic to be lost to rail.

 

[TheWalrus]

The Planner - would you like to see the timetable I have knocked up for Reading-Oxford?
Greenback - How many are there on each train between Didcot and Reading?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The Planner - would you like to see the timetable I have knocked up for Reading-Oxford?
Greenback - How many are there on each train between Didcot and Reading?

Having been around Reading on weekends recently, I can assure you there are plenty (or at least enough to justify the current service level) getting on or off at the likes of Pangbourne and Goring & Streatley etc...

 

[The Planner]

Don't be upset if I rip it to shreds though, you don't know where the freight paths are and if you have based it off the PTT you are going to be a bit out anyway.

 

[Greenback]

Hi all

There's two things I wanted to bring up on the forum regarding services between Reading and Oxford.

One was the frequency of services. There are currently 2tph stopping services from London-Oxford. How well loaded are these during the day? I would propose an hourly semi-fast service from London-Oxford calling at: Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring, Cholsey, Didcot, Appleford(2 hourly calls) Culham and Radley. However this would increase to half-hourly at peak times, as is currently.

The second is to call Reading-Newcastle services at Didcot, in order to replace the 1tph to Oxford it will lose, and also provide direct connections to the North. This proposal will also benefit Swindon and Chippenham, as customers from these stations would only need to change once to travel to Birmingham and the North.

So what does everyone think of these proposals? I will accept all feedback! And all questions welcome!

The Planner - would you like to see the timetable I have knocked up for Reading-Oxford?
Greenback - How many are there on each train between Didcot and Reading?

I'm going back a few years, but the old style TVM's sold a lot of tickets to Cholsey, Goring and Pangbourne. Far more than than to Theale or Newbury, for instance. How attractive would an hourly service be for those locations? Especially when you consider that people in those places might also want to go to Reading, Oxford and Diddy.

A popular trip was out to Pangbourne, a walk along the river, and a meal in a pub that I forget the name of!

 

[TheWalrus]

Don't be upset if I rip it to shreds though, you don't know where the freight paths are and if you have based it off the PTT you are going to be a bit out anyway.

What's the PTT? If I used the fast lines more, the slow lines would be relieved, especially if there's only one local service per hour. OK then, here's the timetable Feel free to criticise and ask all questions!

 

[MCR247]

PTT = Public Timetable
WTT = Working timetable

The WTT is more exact, using half seconds, and TOCs often publish incorrect times in the PTT on purpose so they look good.

 

[TheWalrus]

TOCs often publish incorrect times in the PTT on purpose so they look good.

Ah yes, I'm aware of that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm going back a few years, but the old style TVM's sold a lot of tickets to Cholsey, Goring and Pangbourne. Far more than than to Theale or Newbury, for instance.

Newbury 1536000
Thatcham 523000
Theale 485000
Tilehurst 437000
Pangbourne 402000
Goring 373000
Cholsey 192000

So Newbury, Thatcham and Theale have higher pax numbers than Tilehurst Pangbourne, Goring and Cholsey! And also There's 2/3 tph fast Reading-Didcot.

 

[dfishw]

hi i think its a pity they cant stop a few at didcot esp as XC trains stop at even smaller stations on some routes (eg some nott-cardiff trains call at spondon!!!! only a village!).....i personally doubt many would use a long distance service at didcot (or to there) as its only a small town but i think it would be useful for direct trains to birmingham and for extra peak period services for commuters.........

 

[Tomnick]

PTT = Public Timetable
WTT = Working timetable

The WTT is more exact, using half seconds, and TOCs often publish incorrect times in the PTT on purpose so they look good.

Half minutes, not half seconds... and there's various reasons for publishing later arrivals and earlier departures in the PTT; not sure public image is one of them!

 

[MCR247]

Sorry, meant half minutes, and when I said to look good, I meant so trains don't look as late as they are.

Example: an InterCity train in the public timetable due at xx:10, could be put in the WTT at xx:15, so it could be 15minutes late according to the PTT and still be class as ontime

 

[thefab444]

Is it not usually the other way around, with the WTT timing being accurate, and the PTT timing being padded to mask delays?

 

[The Planner]

Diagram 14 and 18 doesnt work for a start, too short a turn around at Padd off a Plymouth service.

 

[tbtc]

The two "slow" Paddington - Oxford services could easily be split at Reading, they are a lot slower than the HSTs

 

[MCR247]

Is it not usually the other way around, with the WTT timing being accurate, and the PTT timing being padded to mask delays?

Probably, I wasn't sure when I posted that

 

[mathmo]

There are currently 2tph stopping services from London-Oxford. How well loaded are these during the day? I would propose an hourly semi-fast service from London-Oxford calling at: Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring, Cholsey, Didcot, Appleford(2 hourly calls) Culham and Radley. However this would increase to half-hourly at peak times, as is currently.

I don't get what you're trying to do. Looking at your spreadsheet, you seem to be halving the number of stopping trains Paddington - Maidenhead from 4tph to 2tph (excluding Heathrow Connect). These trains are pretty busy, especially once you get into West London - cutting them makes little sense! It looks like you've scrapped all trains to Taplow and Burnham so I doubt they'll be happy. Whilst Maidenhead/Twyford etc could do with a regular semi-fast (which they don't have at the moment), the current London-Oxford slow service is not intended for anyone to do anywhere near the full journey: it's for local journeys. Most of the train gets off/on at Reading anyway (as you can just get an HST to Reading or Didcot and change there). Maybe services north-west of Didcot are over-specified (I don't use them), but it would hardly make a big difference - and when Crossrail arrives, everything will change anyway!

 

[Greenback]

Ah yes, I'm aware of that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Newbury 1536000
Thatcham 523000
Theale 485000
Tilehurst 437000
Pangbourne 402000
Goring 373000
Cholsey 192000

So Newbury, Thatcham and Theale have higher pax numbers than Tilehurst Pangbourne, Goring and Cholsey! And also There's 2/3 tph fast Reading-Didcot.

I don't get what you're trying to do. Looking at your spreadsheet, you seem to be halving the number of stopping trains Paddington - Maidenhead from 4tph to 2tph (excluding Heathrow Connect). These trains are pretty busy, especially once you get into West London - cutting them makes little sense! It looks like you've scrapped all trains to Taplow and Burnham so I doubt they'll be happy. Whilst Maidenhead/Twyford etc could do with a regular semi-fast (which they don't have at the moment), the current London-Oxford slow service is not intended for anyone to do anywhere near the full journey: it's for local journeys. Most of the train gets off/on at Reading anyway (as you can just get an HST to Reading or Didcot and change there). Maybe services north-west of Didcot are over-specified (I don't use them), but it would hardly make a big difference - and when Crossrail arrives, everything will change anyway!

Mathmo is right. When I was referring to tickets sold, I was talking about tickets from Reading only. There is no doubt that the figures TheWalrus quotes for passenger numbers show that Newbury, Thatcham and Theale are busier overall than the others, but I wasn;t disputing that, Iw as trying to illustrate that the stations are far more useful for local journeys to and from Reading, Didcot and Oxford.

I also think that, from the figures, it's clear that a half hourly service is both deserved and required.

 

[TheWalrus]

I also think that, from the figures, it's clear that a half hourly service is both deserved and required.

But Cholsey has less pax than Pewsey! Are you suggesting half-hourly services at Pewsey too?!

The majority of those pax will be at peak times, where demand will be well catered for. I don't believe in operating half-hourly empty services, when an hourly service would suffice off-peak, and the units could be used to improve services elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't get what you're trying to do. Looking at your spreadsheet, you seem to be halving the number of stopping trains Paddington - Maidenhead from 4tph to 2tph. These trains are pretty busy, especially once you get into West London - cutting them makes little sense! It looks like you've scrapped all trains to Taplow and Burnham so I doubt they'll be happy. Whilst Maidenhead/Twyford etc could do with a regular semi-fast (which they don't have at the moment), the current London-Oxford slow service is not intended for anyone to do anywhere near the full journey: it's for local journeys. Most of the train gets off/on at Reading anyway (as you can just get an HST to Reading or Didcot and change there). Maybe services north-west of Didcot are over-specified (I don't use them), but it would hardly make a big difference - and when Crossrail arrives, everything will change anyway!

Right, the timetable attached doesn't include XX12/42 services to Reading, so these will remain as is and be unaffected. Therefore I would not be halving London-Maidenhead stopping services, or cutting all calls at Taplow and Burnham. I do understand why you have picked me up on this, and you are right to do so, but it isnt what I have planned!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Diagram 14 and 18 doesnt work for a start, too short a turn around at Padd off a Plymouth service.

Yes, that was done a while ago, ignore that at the moment I'll deal with it later. I am aware of the minimum turn around time of 25 mins.

Really ATM I'm concentrating on the Thames Valley timetable!

 

[imagination]

Hi all

There's two things I wanted to bring up on the forum regarding services between Reading and Oxford.

One was the frequency of services. There are currently 2tph stopping services from London-Oxford. How well loaded are these during the day?

There is a HUGE number of Kendrick/Reading School pupils who use the (offpeak) 15:53/16:24/16:53 services from Reading to Tilehurst and Pangbourne (and a few beyond that as well)

The first 2 of these trains at least are usually full to standing.

On the other hand, throughout the middle of the day there will usually be no more than about 40 people getting off any one train at Reading that is heading towards London, and no more than half a dozen actually continuing from one side to the other on the same train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
oh and bear in mind that there is more than one "peak" for that section of line - the official peak, which is the peak from London, the peak from Reading, and in places a peak from Oxford as well.

 

[TheWalrus]

There is a HUGE number of Kendrick/Reading School pupils who use the (offpeak) 15:53/16:24/16:53 services from Reading to Tilehurst and Pangbourne (and a few beyond that as well)

The first 2 of these trains at least are usually full to standing.

On the other hand, throughout the middle of the day there will usually be no more than about 40 people getting off any one train at Reading that is heading towards London, and no more than half a dozen actually continuing from one side to the other on the same train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
oh and bear in mind that there is more than one "peak" for that section of line - the official peak, which is the peak from London, the peak from Reading, and in places a peak from Oxford as well.

I have bore in mind the peaks from the different locations, being London, Reading and Oxford

Thank you for that info regarding the 1553/1624/1653 services off Reading. Obviously if they are well loaded, I'll do my upmost to keep them! Is there any others you would like to note? I'll incorporate all your suggestions into the final timetable.

Many thanks!

 

[imagination]

Thank you for that info regarding the 1553/1624/1653 services off Reading. Obviously if they are well loaded, I'll do my upmost to keep them! Is there any others you would like to note? I'll incorporate all your suggestions into the final timetable.

Not particularly - the equivalent journey in the other direction takes place during the morning peak so would be unaffected.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Look, with the most due respect, if it's not broken, don't fix it. A service level reduction etc for Pangbourne, Cholsey, Radley etc would look very bad, especially on behalf of FGW, who would no doubt get the blame...

Is there anything actually wrong with the current timetable?

 

[Greenback]

But Cholsey has less pax than Pewsey! Are you suggesting half-hourly services at Pewsey too?!

The majority of those pax will be at peak times, where demand will be well catered for. I don't believe in operating half-hourly empty services, when an hourly service would suffice off-peak, and the units could be used to improve services elsewhere.

So Cholsey has less passengers per annum than Pewsey? This is one fo the difficulties with the annual passenger figures, they get used out of context to justify all sorts of strange ideas.

Let's get this straight. You are suggesting reducing trains on a section of line between two quite imoprtant places so that the units saved can be used to improve services elsewhere. Where might these improvements be?

You say that 'most' pf the passenegrs willtravel during the peaks, yet you also accept that there are a range of peaks for the flows to and from these particvular stations. Given that you have declared that the 'peaks' will still ebserved half hourly, you will actually be cutting very few services. So what is the point?

And what about those people who travel in one direction during the 'peak', and the other way in the 'off peak'? Will they not be dissuaded from using the train?

There are plenty of people outside the railway who would like to cut services, and I can't go against proposals that are well thought out and where there is no real demand. But you seem to have picked, at random, an affluent part of the South of England and decided on the basis of annual passenger usage, that the service could realistically be halved for maybe two or three hours a day at great inconvenience to soem of those that actually use the trains.

 

[thefab444]

Let me guess, this timetable will also involve at least 3tph for Bedwyn? If Pangbourne with its 400k pax deserves 1tph off-peak, then Bedwyn with its 87k pax deserves nothing. Limited service during the peaks to Newbury only. Nothing to Pewsey or west thereof.

What is the actual benefit of cutting the Oxford stopping services?

 

[tbtc]

What is the actual benefit of cutting the Oxford stopping services?

The only benefit I can think of is to cut the services at Reading. Doing so would allow the following:

Both services (Paddington - Reading semi fast and Reading - Oxford slow) could use bay platforms at Reading

Better co-ordination between the six Reading - Oxford services each hour, rather than getting overtaken as happens at the moment

The semi-fast London side of the route could be part of Crossrail and integrate with other services at that end easier

I can't imagine many use the services from one side of Reading to the other (since the frequent HSTs are so much faster if you change)

No changes to frequencies/ stopping patterns/ units used, just chopping a service into two