Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Deepgreen]

The 700s have the best first class on the bml since the 442s imo just a shame the legroom is no tight In standard as I had trouble getting comfortable yesterday .

Yes - the seats are (for me at 6'2") deceptively comfortable. Having the armrest by the windows moveable makes a surprising difference too (whereas the 377s' are fixed).

 

[jon0844]

Really?? - the Cloud - hardly the epitome of reliability!

Superb understatement (or typo adding a zero)!

Thanks anyway for the note.

What's wrong with the cloud these days? Almost everything I do these days is cloud based, and while I've had the occasional off day (or usually hour) in a number of years this probably still equates to a tiny fraction of 1% of downtime.

All the train needs is a reasonable data connection, and for small packets of data even ancient GPRS or EDGE with ridiculously high latency would likely suffice.

 

[J-2739]

What's wrong with the cloud these days? Almost everything I do these days is cloud based, and while I've had the occasional off day (or usually hour) in a number of years this probably still equates to a tiny fraction of 1% of downtime.

All the train needs is a reasonable data connection, and for small packets of data even ancient GPRS or EDGE with ridiculously high latency would likely suffice.

Having something cloud based is generally slower than downloaded content, depending on your internet speed. Also, you need the Internet!! What if it cuts out?

The zombie apocalypse is nigh!!

 

[jon0844]

Having something cloud based is generally slower than downloaded content, depending on your internet speed. Also, you need the Internet!! What if it cuts out?

The zombie apocalypse is nigh!!

But the trains are connected so they can download info (currently only used for TfL line statuses, but presumably capable of much, much more) and that's the whole idea.

A driver can key in a code as normal to set the destination up, but if control can send additional info (like London buses getting updates from control) then that's where the real power comes in. Being able to announce specific details for delays at GTR stations, not just the tube, advice on engineering work, strikes etc.

I am not really sure the relevance of the cloud in this case. Unless each train will have an ID and sync via a cloud based service - which then sends relevant information to specific trains, or a group broadcast, or even if trains can be intelligent enough to only give announcements when in a particular area or in a certain direction.

I do think the TfL line status screens could be disabled in some locations when you've left any TfL services, although I guess it's not a massive deal because there's plenty of time to page through a whole load of screens.

 

[Class377/5]

Really?? - the Cloud - hardly the epitome of reliability!

Superb understatement (or typo adding a zero)!

Thanks anyway for the note.

Actually from what I've seen the online element has been fairly reliable so far. The PIS can be changed remotely now via Siemens but as it causes an alarm in cab its not widely used just yet. The end idea is the people making the decisions will have the ability to update the CIS, apps/net and trains with a singe message quickly rather than duplicating thing like now.

I don't rate the Electrostar PIS as 100% effective as it does have its issues. Its a basic system but does have some benefits over the 700 one.

Having something cloud based is generally slower than downloaded content, depending on your internet speed. Also, you need the Internet!! What if it cuts out?

The zombie apocalypse is nigh!!

Er the cloud part is only for altering things so the system can still be used without it in the advent of complete failure. Its a tiny tiny file compared to massive database the 700 PIS contains.

Worth noting more and more is going this way with a drive for 4G enabled wifi trains. Already talk of using 5G for an interconnected system.

 

[SAPhil]

I've come to the concusion that much of the info currently displayed on the PIS is pretty pointless anyway. If you are in a rammed carriage then the odds on there being room elsewhere or managing to get through the crush to get there is close to zero. If the carriage has room to move about in then you should be able to see whether any room exists elsewhere without waiting for the display to cycle round! What needs to be displayed far more freqently is the next station - especially when the GN services start running through the core as well.
The map/status of the toilets is useful though - you can amuse yourself on a long journey by betting on which one will be the next to go red

 

[Class377/5]

But the trains are connected so they can download info (currently only used for TfL line statuses, but presumably capable of much, much more) and that's the whole idea.

A driver can key in a code as normal to set the destination up, but if control can send additional info (like London buses getting updates from control) then that's where the real power comes in. Being able to announce specific details for delays at GTR stations, not just the tube, advice on engineering work, strikes etc.

I am not really sure the relevance of the cloud in this case. Unless each train will have an ID and sync via a cloud based service - which then sends relevant information to specific trains, or a group broadcast, or even if trains can be intelligent enough to only give announcements when in a particular area or in a certain direction.

I do think the TfL line status screens could be disabled in some locations when you've left any TfL services, although I guess it's not a massive deal because there's plenty of time to page through a whole load of screens.

Indeed, imagine your train alerting you to problems along its route or that the calling pattern has changed. You can then use your app for how to reach your station (perhaps using the onboard free wifi once it is there) meaning you get all the information from your seat.

Also real time problems on other TOCs. Say your heading for Sutton but there is a problem between Sutton and Epsom the system can alert Sutton bound trains so any passengers can start planning their trip before it becomes an issue.

 

[jon0844]

There are plans to show video (advertising I assume) and much more, from what was said early on, so I think the software will evolve. While that can mean new bugs and problems, the system is clearly more advanced than a simple dot-matrix LED display and has a lot of potential we're yet to enjoy.

As for 5G, as someone who is looking at this and hearing from the likes of Qualcomm, Huawei and others, I can say that it's a good 5-6 years away and there's no confirmed standard yet. For all intents and purposes, it's really just another air interface as 4G is already fully IP based and so will 5G be. In fact, really there's no 5G or 6G going forward - just better and more efficient ways to manage more capacity.

EE is trialling 1Gb/s over 4G near Borehamwood right now, and there's scope for even faster speeds. That's 1000Mbs, potentially in both directions, which is insane given what most people probably have at home, or even at most offices. 4.5G will have lower latency, needed for things like autonomous vehicles, so the future is pretty much already here - it's just the cost of upgrading sites, running faster backhaul connections, offering compatible devices, oh, and working out how much to charge.

Back to the 700s. Even 2G would be fine for routine status updates, changes of stopping patterns, special alerts. If a train was to download video adverts or, say, BBC News headlines (like HEX) then 4G would likely be needed, but I wonder if it would be more likely that such things would be downloaded when a train was at a terminus or something, over Wi-Fi?

 

[Class377/5]

Back to the 700s. Even 2G would be fine for routine status updates, changes of stopping patterns, special alerts. If a train was to download video adverts or, say, BBC News headlines (like HEX) then 4G would likely be needed, but I wonder if it would be more likely that such things would be downloaded when a train was at a terminus or something, over Wi-Fi?

The 700's already wireless update in depots so not impossible to update any ads (from future operators) in this way at stations. A trip through the Core with the train talking to the infrastructure on upgraded links may mean its able to d it on the move. The system, like much of the 700's, is all about being able to adapt.

The 700's use 3G IIRC already.

 

[jon0844]

The 700's already wireless update in depots so not impossible to update any ads (from future operators) in this way at stations. A trip through the Core with the train talking to the infrastructure on upgraded links may mean its able to d it on the move. The system, like much of the 700's, is all about being able to adapt.

The 700's use 3G IIRC already.

3G is usually fine, and will be better when more people migrate to 4G. I can get speeds of 20-25Mbps on a good day, which is ample. Not as good latency as 4G, but hardly a problem. If the train has a good outdoor antenna, I'm sure there's near blanket 3G coverage everywhere the 700s operate today, or in the future.

I would hope the trains can be upgraded through to support 4G as ALL operators intend to re-use a lot of their 3G spectrum for 4G, which means the remaining 3G spectrum will shrink, and if there are lots of people hanging on to old 3G phones, it will impact speeds.

By 2020, Vodafone hopes to turn off 3G entirely. I'd say that soon after, the others will be seeking to do the same. And that would mean the trains only being able to use 2G. Not good for a state-of-the-art train, using 1990s mobile technology!

 

[J-2739]

Sorry, thought you were both on about the dosmetic cloud (the one that phone users can access)!

 

[urpert]

For the record, I was on another 700 today with fully working screens. Still haven't managed to get one on the Catford Loop though.

 

[asylumxl]

For the record, I was on another 700 today with fully working screens. Still haven't managed to get one on the Catford Loop though.

Lucky you. I got a 700 that sat down between Kings Cross Thameslink and St Pancras International for just over half an hour.

Then we got detrained as the train couldn't continue in service, I assume due to something being isolated (perhaps AWS or similar?).

Then the next train we boarded was also a 700. The train was rammed and the isles and vestibules full of standing passengers, but apparently my carriage had "plenty of seats"...

 

[Peter Sarf]

The map/status of the toilets is useful though - you can amuse yourself on a long journey by betting on which one will be the next to go red

Your making an assumption there !. That people will remember to lock the door. Or is there a pressure sensor built into the pan .

 

[Peter Sarf]

Agreed, but with no Southern metros operating and the previous TL nowhere near, not only did I see greens at every signal but I can see no reason why there would not have been greens as far as the eye could see (except for approach controls, etc.). Nothing on RTT to contradict my assumption, either. However, the tortuous speed limit profile on the route probably means that a plod is all that many can be bothered with.

Actually I suppose it is professional driving. No point going faster if it means waiting at the next junction/station for right time. Just a waste of energy. Personally I find it more frustrating if the train is stationary for no apparent reason than if it is moving slowly. That interminably wait in a Thames link train on the approaches to London Bridge springs to mind. I will miss that in 2018 (fingers crossed).

 

[Alteran Ancient]

I don't rate the Electrostar PIS as 100% effective as it does have its issues. Its a basic system but does have some benefits over the 700 one.

I've been riding Electrostars for years now, and about 95% of them seem to have a good working PIS - better still than the PIS that was retro-fitted to the 465/466 Networkers that only seems to work about 80% of the time.

This is a much more recent thing, but on the TL-loaned-to-SE 377s, they've been displaying information about the industrial action on Southern. Are these messages broadcast via GSM/GPRS, or do they need to be physically installed by the depot? I figured that given these 6 units mostly sit in sidings in Southeastern's territory, that they are probably having the messages pushed remotely.

Sorry to deviate from the 700s discussion a little bit - I was just curious to understand the strengths/capabilities of the 377s PIS.

 

[jon0844]

With the way things are going, messages about disruption on Southern will be hard coded in the PIS.

 

[4-COR 3142]

With the way things are going, messages about disruption on Southern will be hard coded in the PIS.

May be so, but if things carry on this way there will be no passengers on any Southern units to read them anyway!

 

[jon0844]

May be so, but if things carry on this way there will be no passengers on any Southern units to read them anyway!

Good point.

Soon RTT and the like will just say 'Stay home' when you enter any GTR run station.

 

[W230]

45 is more realistic on the down (we have a job fast from Blackfriars to Bromley south via herne hill non stop, and going over the points at herne hill onto the chathams is an eye opener at 45) , and 60 through loughborough junction on the up line.

I thought it was 20mph on the points whichever way you go (whether DCM or DH), when arriving from Loughborough Junction? We did have a discussion on the shift as to whether the 45mph was allowed if heading towards Beckenham Jct but decided the Sectional Appendix suggested 20mph. I'd have to feel brave to do 45mph heading on to the DCM though.

 

[westcoaster]

I thought it was 20mph on the points whichever way you go (whether DCM or DH), when arriving from Loughborough Junction? We did have a discussion on the shift as to whether the 45mph was allowed if heading towards Beckenham Jct but decided the Sectional Appendix suggested 20mph. I'd have to feel brave to do 45mph heading on to the DCM though.

45 onto the dcm from Loughborough junction, I thought the same so got clarification from my manager who confirms 45mph, the 20 applies to the junction to go up towards tulse Hill.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've been riding Electrostars for years now, and about 95% of them seem to have a good working PIS - better still than the PIS that was retro-fitted to the 465/466 Networkers that only seems to work about 80% of the time.

This is a much more recent thing, but on the TL-loaned-to-SE 377s, they've been displaying information about the industrial action on Southern. Are these messages broadcast via GSM/GPRS, or do they need to be physically installed by the depot? I figured that given these 6 units mostly sit in sidings in Southeastern's territory, that they are probably having the messages pushed remotely.

Sorry to deviate from the 700s discussion a little bit - I was just curious to understand the strengths/capabilities of the 377s PIS.

I believe it is done via download, it does a single chime then plays the text.

 

[BRX]

There are plans to show video (advertising I assume)

I hope not... any train or bus I've been on where there are video screens, it's horribly distracting. Visual bullying.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Bugs me advertising. OK I suppose it is inevitable if a service is free then what do you expect. But if I buy a ticket then why should I have to be disturbed all the time. Its the same with the National Rail website - I am there to look for train times with a view to buying a ticket - why do I have to waste time waiting for adverts to download and they are so distracting. /rant

In the case the 700s this means I will hopefully learn to ignore the screens and then not get ANY information. And that will be my excuse .

 

[W230]

45 onto the dcm from Loughborough junction, I thought the same so got clarification from my manager who confirms 45mph, the 20 applies to the junction to go up towards tulse Hill.

I'd best have a go at it then next time I get the Bromley South turnback.

 

[jon0844]

I hope not... any train or bus I've been on where there are video screens, it's horribly distracting. Visual bullying.

Other companies have tried (and failed) to introduce advertising screens, so it may well not happen.

But never say never. The capability is there for the left screen to show video. Of course it might just show something useful (or, more likely, will never show anything!).

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I would hope that the advertising screens would in part be used for travel information (any delays on LU, LO, DLR or national rail and any major delays affecting bus and tram routes)

 

[Abpj17]

It's already annoying enough that the vending machines at city thameslink were apparently unplugged to make way for advertising screens. Unless more advertising corresponds with reduced fares, I'm not a fan.

 

[All Line Rover]

And a broken down train at Farringdon this morning (again). You couldn't make this up.

 

[Class 466]

And a broken down train at Farringdon this morning (again). You couldn't make this up.

That was 319002/319454. Check before jumping to conclusions

 

[gsnedders]

That was 319002/319454. Check before jumping to conclusions

We should just send them to scrap, they're worthless trains, they can't even run a normal service without breaking down!