Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[superkev]

Is the automatic train operation section, Kx Blackfriers is it, in use yet.
Thanks
K

 

[AM9]

I *thought* I saw a 700 in Hornsey last Tuesday evening with Great Northern logos on rather than Thameslink. Was I right - and if so, are there going to be two separate cl700 fleets, in theory at least?

It would be a ridiculous waste of money and create unnecessary operational difficulties, all for no gain anywhere, - maybe that's what GTR are doing.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Is the automatic train operation section, Kx Blackfriers is it, in use yet.
Thanks
K

The passenger doors open automatically in the core but I assume the control of the train is under the auspecies of the driver along with the changeover from DC to AC etc

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the automatic train operation section, Kx Blackfriers is it, in use yet.
Thanks
K

Not in service.

 

[Bald Rick]

The passenger doors open automatically in the core but I assume the control of the train is under the auspecies of the driver along with the changeover from DC to AC etc

Changeover is automatic (usually), and very quick. Going south, the pan comes down before the doors are open!

 

[ijmad]

Changeover is automatic (usually), and very quick. Going south, the pan comes down before the doors are open!

What triggers the changeover? Some sort of track circuit, or GPS? Or is it still a button the driver has to press?

 

[Bald Rick]

What triggers the changeover? Some sort of track circuit, or GPS? Or is it still a button the driver has to press?

A balise.

 

[ComUtoR]

A balise.

Is it the Balise that instigates the changeover ? If you miss your stopping window, it doesn't change over. That suggests the balise is only telling the unit its about to stop at City and what platform/direction its travelling in. For the doors and the pan to work you must stop within your stopping window or its manual for everything.

The doors only open after they have been released by the Driver and the AC/DC changeover can be put in manual mode at any time.

I do wonder what information the Balise is sending and how much is onboard equipment. There is a Balise entering the bay platforms at Blackfriars but something is going wrong there. The doors will not automatically open when the unit is on the buffers. The current theory is that the correct stopping point is not the buffers or the Balise isn't actually switched on yet.

 

[ComUtoR]

Changeover is automatic (usually), and very quick. Going south, the pan comes down before the doors are open!

If the power is in auto mode and you stop correctly the system will change over. The doors are dependent on the Driver. I know when I stop, I check I'm stopped correctly and the pan is switching over before I pop the door release.

 

[gsnedders]

Are the balises used for door release and pantograph changeover ETCS ones? (Potentially using non-ETCS application packets.)

 

[Bald Rick]

The balises are passive, and each has a unique code. The simple version is that they are energised by the train antennae, and the balise then identifies itself to the train. AIUI, the train knows exactly where each balise is, and what to do as a result.

So, as a northbound train enters the stopping window for City TL, the antenna will energise balise ID abc123*, and the map in the onboard computer knows that when it finds abc123, and speed=0, then swap the power and open the doors.

ETCS works off exactly the same data. The train is sent a message from the Radio Block centre advising it has movement authority to balise xyz789*; the train knows exactly where it is through a combination of previous balises and on board odometry (GPS and conventional), and either advises the driver how fast he/she can go, or simply tells the ATO to drive to that same profile.

Essentially, all the intelligence is on the train, except for the signal interlocking.


*made up obvs

 

[Bald Rick]

Are the balises used for door release and pantograph changeover ETCS ones? (Potentially using non-ETCS application packets.)

They can be. They are all eurobalises. They are little more than a secure RFID tag.

 

[gsnedders]

They can be. They are all eurobalises. They are little more than a secure RFID tag.

I'm well aware they can be; I was mostly interested in whether they were using ETCS packets for communication, given Core is soon using ETCS anyway, and it'd presumably simplify things on the train-side (not having to distinguish, somehow, ETCS packets v. other things).

 

[ComUtoR]

So, as a northbound train enters the stopping window for City TL, the antenna will energise balise ID abc123*, and the map in the onboard computer knows that when it finds abc123, and speed=0, then swap the power and open the doors.

So, by your logic, the balise antenna on the unit must be at the rear. When you stop at the RLU/FLU/ALL sign, the balise is near the back. It makes sense as the stopping window is tighter than a proverbial in a proverbial and those balises aren't exactly long so the antenna must need to be right over it.

I thought the balise sent the data to the unit as it passes over it into the station.

It does not automatically open the doors though. (at least from my perspective) The door is still manually released by the Driver and then all doors open. Under ATO I have been informed that this will be fully automatic (no Driver release)

 

[Skimble19]

I *thought* I saw a 700 in Hornsey last Tuesday evening with Great Northern logos on rather than Thameslink. Was I right - and if so, are there going to be two separate cl700 fleets, in theory at least?

I would imagine it was one of the units with the old Thameslink logo on still rather than a GN logo.

 

[carriageline]

Is it the Balise that instigates the changeover ? If you miss your stopping window, it doesn't change over. That suggests the balise is only telling the unit its about to stop at City and what platform/direction its travelling in. For the doors and the pan to work you must stop within your stopping window or its manual for everything.



The doors only open after they have been released by the Driver and the AC/DC changeover can be put in manual mode at any time.



I do wonder what information the Balise is sending and how much is onboard equipment. There is a Balise entering the bay platforms at Blackfriars but something is going wrong there. The doors will not automatically open when the unit is on the buffers. The current theory is that the correct stopping point is not the buffers or the Balise isn't actually switched on yet.

The bays will require 700s to stop half way down, this is due to the ramps for the disabled access needing to be half way down the platform!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[gsnedders]

So, by your logic, the balise antenna on the unit must be at the rear. When you stop at the RLU/FLU/ALL sign, the balise is near the back. It makes sense as the stopping window is tighter than a proverbial in a proverbial and those balises aren't exactly long so the antenna must need to be right over it.

I thought the balise sent the data to the unit as it passes over it into the station.

It does not automatically open the doors though. (at least from my perspective) The door is still manually released by the Driver and then all doors open. Under ATO I have been informed that this will be fully automatic (no Driver release)

ETCS is aware of the distance from the balise, so if they are just using the ETCS system for this the location of the antenna is irrelevant. (This is how, using ETCS, the train always knows its almost exact location.)

 

[ComUtoR]

So, as a northbound train enters the stopping window for City TL, the antenna will energise balise ID abc123*, and the map in the onboard computer knows that when it finds abc123, and speed=0, then swap the power and open the doors.

ETCS is aware of the distance from the balise, so if they are just using the ETCS system for this the location of the antenna is irrelevant. (This is how, using ETCS, the train always knows its almost exact location.)

Unit passes over balise abc123 and receives data regarding the stopping point. (distance, platform, and instruction) Unit travels and stops at the precise stop distance for RLU or FLU and the unit then confirms this with an onboard check. Unit carries out the required instruction. (doors/power etc)

Does that sound about right because that what I believed was happening.

 

[TFN]

A bit off topic but anyone notice that when terminating at London Blackfriars, the announcements says "The doors will open automatically at the next station" but never does. So half the time we have people standing waiting for the doors to open. Why exactly don't the doors open automatically when terminating (at platform 3/4)?

 

[ComUtoR]

. So half the time we have people standing waiting for the doors to open. Why exactly don't the doors open automatically when terminating (at platform 3/4)?

As mentioned. It doesn't work correctly. In all cases currently through the core it still requires the driver to release the doors before they open. In the case of 3/4 we have to override it as they will not open correctly.

 

[talldave]

A bit off topic but anyone notice that when terminating at London Blackfriars, the announcements says "The doors will open automatically at the next station" but never does. So half the time we have people standing waiting for the doors to open. Why exactly don't the doors open automatically when terminating (at platform 3/4)?

I find use of the word "next" in the doors announcement confusing, as it comes just after the "we are now approaching Blackfriars..." announcement. For me, it would be less ambiguous if it said "doors will open automatically at this station".

 

[Roast Veg]

A bit off topic but anyone notice that when terminating at London Blackfriars, the announcements says "The doors will open automatically at the next station" but never does. So half the time we have people standing waiting for the doors to open. Why exactly don't the doors open automatically when terminating (at platform 3/4)?

Is this not the same issue as when passengers are told that some doors will not open at the next station, but they do? In that the system is configured to announce such a thing when the train is heading into Blackfriars but does not know which platform it is due to enter.

 

[spark001uk]

I find use of the word "next" in the doors announcement confusing, as it comes just after the "we are now approaching Blackfriars..." announcement. For me, it would be less ambiguous if it said "doors will open automatically at this station".

That's exactly my thoughts. When it says it's approaching station x, then the auto door open quoted as "next station", one would be excused for thinking it actually meant the one after the one we're pulling into.

 

[EMD]

Ah the TL announcements, sometimes I wonder what genius comes up with them. The "first class section is not in use on this train" is my favourite since it literally means that nobody should use it. Logically, since it's declassified, it should say "the first class section is declassified" or "passengers with standard class tickets are allowed to use the first class section on this train".

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If I recall today's Yahoogroup postings properly, 700 141 is the latest delivery.

 

[jon0844]

I saw a 700 on its way to Hornsey via Peterborough yesterday morning (being top and tailed by locos) as I think it loops around there? Had the new Thameslink logo but I didn't get the unit number.

 

[bengley]

So, by your logic, the balise antenna on the unit must be at the rear. When you stop at the RLU/FLU/ALL sign, the balise is near the back. It makes sense as the stopping window is tighter than a proverbial in a proverbial and those balises aren't exactly long so the antenna must need to be right over it.

I thought the balise sent the data to the unit as it passes over it into the station.

It does not automatically open the doors though. (at least from my perspective) The door is still manually released by the Driver and then all doors open. Under ATO I have been informed that this will be fully automatic (no Driver release)

The balise antenna is under the pantograph coaches. You will notice the balises are approximately one coach length from the appropriate FLU/RLU board in the core. I've never managed to stop outside the window in the core so don't know what happens but assume it's the same as the bays at Blackfriars in an 8 car - it doesn't release and you have to FASDO Override. In an FLU the doors release correctly (after the driver presses the open buttons) and open automatically in the bays.

 

[ComUtoR]

I haven't missed yet either but what happens is that you get an 'orange train' and need to FASDO the doors. At City, it won't changeover the pan so you need to do a manual changeover.

Re the bay and an RLU. We all are leaning towards the stopping point for an RLU being away from the buffers, even more so now that you say an FLU opens correctly :/

 

[spark001uk]

Is the balise the flat yellow rectangular thing mounted on the sleeper in the four foot? It has "Siemens" printed on it so that kind of gives it away but thought I'd ask.

 

[387star]

700 related

Will ato work on dead end platforms at bfriars and also canal tunnels ?