Thameslink new Stock announcement this week

[tempests1]

It should be announced this week which train builder will be awarded the contract to build the new Thameslink stock either Bombardier, or Siemens. The annoucement got put back until after the recent elections. Fingers crossed Bombardier will get it as this will safeguard jobs at the UK last train building facility at Derby rather the work going to Germany.

 

[WatcherZero]

I favour the Desiro City slightly as a design but believe where the construction takes place is important.

 

[cj_1985]

personally i would be expecting bombardier and/or siemens to start moving towards legal action against the DfT because of the IEP spec change (and award to hitatchi) situation once its announced who has the contract... or at the latest once a contract has been signed

i too would like to see Bombardier win the contract... as despite a few problems which have been caused by suppliers facing financial difficulties, or bad spec/faulty testing of exhausts they have proved to build decent quality trains... plus they would build the trains in the uk rather than in germany

and from the artists impressions of the two offerings.. the Bombardier unit looks to be the most cosmetically atractive IMO



Edit: there is also the advantage that Bombardier products already run on the thameslink route for SET, Southern, and at the moment FCC

 

[DVT82305]

I think the Desiro City will be the new train for the Thameslink route

 

[westcoaster]

I would like desiro city, but I think bombardier will get it.

 

[MCR247]

Fingers crossed Bombardier will get it as this will safeguard jobs at the UK last train building facility at Derby rather the work going to Germany.

Fingers crossed they don't get it. They are absolutely crap

 

[asylumxl]

I don't care aslong as it's not a 378 type affair. Wouldn't suprise me. Let's make people stand for a 50 mile journey with 100mph sections .

 

[Pumbaa]

Fingers crossed they don't get it. They are absolutely crap

+1! I genuinely don't know which way its going to be played though. Word out of Marsham St in an MR article suggested that the Siemens bid was the best bid technically, but it hinged on whether they wanted to send their money into Derbyshire or Dusseldorf...

 

[jopsuk]

Fingers crossed they don't get it. They are absolutely crap

I find this hilarious as you've got a Bombardier product for an avatar...

 

[The Snap]

I find this hilarious as you've got a Bombardier product for an avatar...

.

Excuse my ignorance, but where can I find the aforementioned artist impressions of both proposals...?

Cheers

 

[gordonthemoron]

where's the guarantee that Bombardier would build the units in Derby rather than Gorlitz (in germany) or in other countries?

 

[j0hn0]

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Excuse my ignorance, but where can I find the aforementioned artist impressions of both proposals...?

Cheers

seconded, would like to see them.

And Pumbaa, it's Krefeld where Siemens are based, not far from Duss I grant you but it's like saying Bombardier are based in Nottingham.

Besides, aren't Bombardier and Siemens partners in train building?

 

[tempests1]

In this particular case they are not partners as it is two seperate bids, as part of it they both will have a chosen civil engineering contractor who will build the new depot at Three Bridges, & refurbish the exisiting at Hornsey. European law does not allow a government to officially favour companies in its own country, the French Government & Alstom tried to get around this by claiming the Siemens E320 Velaro stock did not comply with Channel Tunnel Safety rules.

 

[The Snap]

where's the guarantee that Bombardier would build the units in Derby rather than Gorlitz (in germany) or in other countries?

I was at Bombardier recently and they were pretty hell-bent on making it clear that their bid was based around creating jobs for the local area, and indeed to country!

 

[tempests1]

where's the guarantee that Bombardier would build the units in Derby rather than Gorlitz (in germany) or in other countries?

Well I guess there is no guarantee, it is rather telling though the fact the announcement has been held back until after the recent elections. It is like the Tory/Lib Dem government did not want to lose votes if the award went to Siemens.
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I was at Bombardier recently and they were pretty hell-bent on making it clear that their bid was based around creating jobs for the local area, and indeed to country!

Agreed - I have spoken to people from Bombardier who are very sure the build will take place in Derby.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't care aslong as it's not a 378 type affair. Wouldn't suprise me. Let's make people stand for a 50 mile journey with 100mph sections .

It is 2+2 seating - according to the details in the ITT.

 

[Nym]

Ooooo, bring on the legal action with regards to the IEP project, Yes, we'll change the spec to Hitachi's liking after we award it...

Can't remember what Bombardier and Seimens' bids where any more, but I don't think either of them had a stupid electro-diesel design for the GWML.

 

[asylumxl]

It is 2+2 seating - according to the details in the ITT.

Sliding doors?

 

[Pumbaa]

Sliding doors?

Bombardiers bid had internally hung sliding pocket doors, Siemens had external plug sliding doors I think.

 

[jon0844]

I like the look of Bombardier products, but would prefer to use a train that is reliable. Decisions Decisions (As if I have any part to play in this decision process!!).

I know you can't discriminate against anyone in a European tender, but surely you can create a tender to say that certain things must be done in certain places?

That would still let Siemens bid, but on the basis that they build, or assemble, the trains here. Naturally, they would still be free (like anyone) to use labour sourced from anywhere within the EU, but they'd need to work here and would more likely be locals than people 'shipped over'.

My parents have done European tenders, but for a totally different industry. This has always been for work carried out in the UK, namely visiting properties to do gas servicing, yet they still got loads of tenders from far, far away. The company bidding must have known it had little chance, and would have to outsource the work to a local firm anyway.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I don't think either of them had a stupid electro-diesel design for the GWML.

very Heath-Robinson IMO

 

[Nym]

very Heath-Robinson IMO

I'm not going to go into and bore everyone with the calculations, but I worked out that with electrification of the Midland Mainline and Crewe to Chester no EDMUs (Bi mode trains) would be needed to be ordered, and the new LDPE trains could be a nice simple order of LDPE EMUs or Electric Loco + Coaches + DVT.

Basically, the 222s displaced from the MML would be converted to EDMU operation for two reasons, one to save fuel, and two to extend them in length. These would operate the off wire services on the GWML.

221s would be displaced from ICWC by more new 390s, used to operate all LDPE services on the WCML, including those north from Manchester and Birmingham, some new diesel locos for off wire haulage on the north wales line, or the same ED treatment as the 222s.

The new stock ordered would be a nice simple, 10 or 12 car EMU suited to LDPE services. For the following TOCs as is now;

East Midlands Trains (Midland Mainline)
First Great Western (GWML)
London Midland (WCML Semi Fasts)

The off wire services on the ECML would go similarly to those of the GWML using displaced DEMUs converted to EDMU operation. Or where operationally convenient, attaching a loco to the new EMU (LDPE), to be designed into it.

Especially with Edinburgh - Aberdeen being electrified, ICEC wouldn't need many diesels.

 

[tbtc]

I have spoken to people from Bombardier who are very sure the build will take place in Derby.

My problem is the definition of "build" that people use here.

I'm all for using local labour (e.g. I tend to wear New Balance shoes partly because they are made in Cumbria), but some of the bids for trains I've seen (IEP etc) suggest that most of the units will be made overseas and they "stuck together" in the UK. Not as skilled or long-term as actually building the trains, just joining together pre-assembled bits like a giant bit of IKEA furniture.

(I'm not saying this to sound pro/anti Bombardier - a company who I have worked for in a very indirect way - just a general comment about how "British" the "British jobs" are that we sometimes talk about)

 

[WatcherZero]

In an overseas based construction contract they tend to make the first dozen or so to iron out any problems then export the bodyshells and the actual fitting out would occur in the UK. 'Final Assembly'. Bombardier do the same on the continent building body shells in Germany then doing the fit out and testing in Austria.

 

[The Snap]

My problem is the definition of "build" that people use here.

I'm all for using local labour (e.g. I tend to wear New Balance shoes partly because they are made in Cumbria), but some of the bids for trains I've seen (IEP etc) suggest that most of the units will be made overseas and they "stuck together" in the UK. Not as skilled or long-term as actually building the trains, just joining together pre-assembled bits like a giant bit of IKEA furniture.

(I'm not saying this to sound pro/anti Bombardier - a company who I have worked for in a very indirect way - just a general comment about how "British" the "British jobs" are that we sometimes talk about)

That's exactly how it happens. As I said earlier, I was at Bombardier earlier this year, and there was just box after box of parts wrapped in bubble wrap fresh from Japan and the like.

Whilst it would provide jobs for the local area if the contract was to go to Bombardier, the skill set required for those jobs, in the main, will be quite low. Still, a job's a job...as they say!

 

[jon0844]

What can you do though? But, just as other EU countries bid for work here - we are free to go and work there.

Part of the problem is that most Europeans speak English fairly well, or very well, but many people here don't speak good French, German etc so it seems harder to go the other way.

 

[swt_passenger]

Bombardiers bid had internally hung sliding pocket doors, Siemens had external plug sliding doors I think.

IIRC (without searching through the DfT website) the ITT just specified the overall dwell time and door opening/closing times to be met, rather than the technology to be used - which was down to the bidder.

 

[159220]

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Excuse my ignorance, but where can I find the aforementioned artist impressions of both proposals...?

Cheers

Aventra:
http://www.rail.co/wp-content/uploads/Bombardier-Aventra.jpg

City:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/pics/tn_gb-siemens-desiro-city-impression.jpg

I hope Bombardier wins the order. Still if they loose, they will still have Crossrail and Merseyside tenders to compete for! Likewise if Siemens loses, we might still see the City for Crossrail and Merseyside tenders.

Everyones a winner

 

[WatcherZero]

Good chance that is probably what will happen. Neither Bombardier nor Siemens have complained about Hitachi and IEP because they knew they would get these contracts.

 

[Pumbaa]

IIRC (without searching through the DfT website) the ITT just specified the overall dwell time and door opening/closing times to be met, rather than the technology to be used - which was down to the bidder.

Possibly could be the memory of the individual bids, I did look through the limited info available for both.