Thameslink Persecution!?!

[qwerty173]

Today I got the train from Luton into London. I bought my tickets in advance and printed them off before my journey. I used my 16-25 card and had it on my possession during the journey.

At Luton i insert my ticket into the machine and the gate opens. I then board the train. I get off at London International and insert my ticket to the gate. It doesnt open. I then go to the attendent and ask why it isnt working. He says its the wrong ticket. I said its for Luton to London. He says its the wrong provider. I tell him that the ticket gate let me in so it must be the right ticket. He has none of it and points me to a woman. I go over to her expecting her to explain. She plays with an ipad for few moments and says i need to pay £38 to which i exclaim "thats ****ing extortionate!". She says thats the price for not having a valid fare and because i have swore she isnt going to dead with me any more and got a train police officer person over.
He then took my address and things and i then had to leave. I didnt pay the £38 pounds despite me having my bank card in my hand. He said they would get in touch.
My query is are they going to try and fine me for swearing (I told him i swore but it wasnt directed at the woman so i refuse to believe it is considered abusive behaviour) or is this just how they send out fare fines?

I find the whole thing ridiculous that i had a ticket, the ticket worked at the first gate. I got off at the right destination but there are two provider on the track and one will charge you £38 if you get them mixed up. Just seems crazy. There was nothing for me to gain from getting the wrong train so it just feels like extortion.

It happened today so needed to vent haha, rant over!

 

[Romilly]

Some tickets are only valid on trains operated by a particular train company: usually you pay less if you opt to put up with the restriction to a single company's trains. If you tell us what your ticket said (or how much you paid and whether it was a single or return), someone here will probably be able to give you more detailed advice.

As for the gate at Luton, it won't have known which train you were going to catch once you got to the platform: it needs to be programmed to allow for all trains from that station going in all directions and run by all train companies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To the OP, when you get a letter UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ignore it. If you do you WILL end up in Court with a possible criminal record if they choose to pursue a RoRA charge, or at best a far higher financial penalty.

The best course of action would have been to pay the Penalty Fare and if incorrect appeal it. It differs from parking charges/penalties in that payment is not admission of guilt - they really do need to make that clear because people aren't used to it.

 

[Hadders]

Something's not quite right here.

Can the OP confirm exactly what ticket was held. Tickets from Luton to London St Pancras are issued to 'London Thameslink' and are routed 'Any Permitted' and so are valid on East Midlands Trains as well as Thameslink.

 

[sheff1]

Can the OP confirm exactly what ticket was held. Tickets from Luton to London St Pancras are issued to 'London Thameslink' and are routed 'Any Permitted' and so are valid on East Midlands Trains as well as Thameslink.

Advance tickets are available for EMT.

EDIT .. and we now know that is what they held.

 

[qwerty173]

I offered to pay the penalty fare then and there. I had my bank card in my hand but he said thats not how it works or something. So im not sure if its just a bill that will be sent to my address which is why he took it. My concern is if they will try and pursue verbal abuse or something ridiculous. I got a ticket for;
LUTON to LONDON ST PANCRAS INTERNATIONAL

"Only valid on booked East Midlands Trains services and required connecting East Midlands Trains services."
This is from the email. The said i got the Thameslink and not the East Midlands and therefore have to pay the penalty fare which I felt was crazy considering i wasnt trying to skip fare was a mistake. Sadly i know i have to pay for that mistake but dont know why i couldnt paythen and there.

 

[sheff1]

... but dont know why i couldnt paythen and there.

You said she asked you for £38, so seemingly you were initially given the option to pay there and then.

 

[Hadders]

Advance tickets are available for EMT

Ah, so they are.

I offered to pay the penalty fare then and there. I had my bank card in my hand but he said thats not how it works or something. So im not sure if its just a bill that will be sent to my address which is why he took it. My concern is if they will try and pursue verbal abuse or something ridiculous. I got a ticket for;
LUTON to LONDON ST PANCRAS INTERNATIONAL

"Only valid on booked East Midlands Trains services and required connecting East Midlands Trains services."
This is from the email. The said i got the Thameslink and not the East Midlands and therefore have to pay the penalty fare which I felt was crazy considering i wasnt trying to skip fare was a mistake. Sadly i know i have to pay for that mistake but dont know why i couldnt paythen and there.

In which you had a ticket that was valid on a specific East Midlands Trains service only. You travelled on a different train which unfortunately meant you didn't have a valid ticket and the Penalty Fare was correct.

Unfortunately matters appeared to have escalated. I'd expect the Prosecutions Department from Govia Thameslink Railway to write to you stating that they are considering prosecution and asking for your version of events. This letter could take several weeks to arrive, depending on their workload. Do not ignore this letter. I suggest you send a brief, contrite reply apologising for your behavior, and offering to pay the outstanding fare and administrative costs of dealing with the issue. If you are lucky they might agree to an out of court settlement but expect this to cost significantly more than the Penalty Fare would've done.

 

[qwerty173]

Yeah she said that was how much it would be since she scrolled on an ipad for prices. There was no cash point that i could see beside her so when I said do i pay now i wasnt given an answer then the officer person appeared asking for information

 

[qwerty173]

Thanks for the responses.
I however feel i have nothing to apologise for. I didnt try to skip the fare, i offered to pay. A swear word doesnt justify court action. The woman didnt say she was being abused so i see no grounds for it to be more than the penalty fare.

 

[gazthomas]

This is very unfortunate - the railway industry expects a lot from its passengers!

 

[Spurs]

Thanks for the responses.
I however feel i have nothing to apologise for. I didnt try to skip the fare, i offered to pay. A swear word doesnt justify court action. The woman didnt say she was being abused so i see no grounds for it to be more than the penalty fare.

Unfortunately that's not how it works. You might have made a mistake, but they don't have to prove intent for a by-law prosecution - the fact you didn't have a valid ticket is enough. They aren't obliged to offer a penalty fare, it's entirely their choice, and it sounds like they decided that because you swore they're not going to offer you one.

The good news is that a by-law prosecution isn't recordable, so you won't get a criminal record from it. The worst case scenario there is a large financial penalty. A RoRA conviction is recordable, but requires them to prove that you intended to avoid the fare - this would be difficult and they are therefore unlikely to pursue it.

When the letter arrives, come back here and get advice again. You'll want to apologise for your actions, and ask them to agree to an out of court settlement. This is likely to be anything from £80 upwards plus the original fare due. Assuming that you don't have any history with them, they are likely (but not certain) to agree to this.

Next time, make sure you get the right train, ask beforehand if you're not sure, and whatever you do don't swear in a conversation with a member of staff. You may not have meant to be abusive, but it can be intimidating regardless and they have to deal with a lot of genuinely aggressive people so as you can see it will be taken seriously.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for the responses.
I however feel i have nothing to apologise for. I didnt try to skip the fare, i offered to pay. A swear word doesnt justify court action. The woman didnt say she was being abused so i see no grounds for it to be more than the penalty fare.

This is very unfortunate - the railway industry expects a lot from its passengers!

Unfortunately the ticket held would've said it was only valid on a specific train and you didn't catch this train.

Rail tickets can be complicated (thankfully you've come to the right place to get advice) but it seems that matters escalated when you swore. This is probably why the offer of a Penalty Fare was withdrawn and your details taken, presumably so that a report could be made to the prosecutions department.

It is unfortunate that you travelled on the wrong train. Equally staff should be able to carry out their job without being subjected to swearing, whether this is directed at them or the situation.

 

[sheff1]

Thanks for the responses.
I however feel i have nothing to apologise for.

I see you have a 16-25 railcard. When I was that age I, too, often felt I had no reason to apologise ..... but experience has taught me that apologising is often the best way to stop things escalating unnecessarily. Whether you wish to take advice from someone who now qualifies for a Senior Railcard is up to you. Best of luck anyway.

 

[qwerty173]

When someone thinks they have purchased the correct ticket then are told that they have to pay and extra £38 without explanation some shock is understandable.

Its not the near equivalent as my language was not directed at anyone.

Swearing alone is not offensive, it is only offensive when directed at someone in an aggressive manner. I didnt think it was. Maybe the ticket operator thinks otherwise.

 

[6Gman]

Today I got the train from Luton into London. I bought my tickets in advance and printed them off before my journey. I used my 16-25 card and had it on my possession during the journey.

At Luton i insert my ticket into the machine and the gate opens. I then board the train. I get off at London International and insert my ticket to the gate. It doesnt open. I then go to the attendent and ask why it isnt working. He says its the wrong ticket. I said its for Luton to London. He says its the wrong provider. I tell him that the ticket gate let me in so it must be the right ticket. He has none of it and points me to a woman. I go over to her expecting her to explain. She plays with an ipad for few moments and says i need to pay £38 to which i exclaim "thats ****ing extortionate!". She says thats the price for not having a valid fare and because i have swore she isnt going to dead with me any more and got a train police officer person over.
He then took my address and things and i then had to leave. I didnt pay the £38 pounds despite me having my bank card in my hand. He said they would get in touch.
My query is are they going to try and fine me for swearing (I told him i swore but it wasnt directed at the woman so i refuse to believe it is considered abusive behaviour) or is this just how they send out fare fines?

I find the whole thing ridiculous that i had a ticket, the ticket worked at the first gate. I got off at the right destination but there are two provider on the track and one will charge you £38 if you get them mixed up. Just seems crazy. There was nothing for me to gain from getting the wrong train so it just feels like extortion.

It happened today so needed to vent haha, rant over!

There was. You paid less than you would have paid for an Any Operator ticket.

 

[yorkie]

The purpose of a Penalty Fare scheme is to charge a higher than normal fare (twice the full fare, so that can be quite a lot) to passengers who have made a mistake under certain circumstances, such as boarding a train operated by a different train company.

It feels like a fine, but it technically isn't.

And, worse than that, the company has the right to cancel an offer of charging a Penalty Fare and threaten you with prosecution instead, which is a non-recordable strict liability matter (more detail is in our Fares Guide) which would lead to a hefty fine, much higher than the Penalty Fare.

The train company (Govia Thameslink Railway) might offer you an out of court settlement, which you may wish to take up, if you would prefer not to contest the matter in court.

They hold all the cards. But wait for the letter. Let us know what it says. Until the letter arrives, there is nothing more that can be said really.

 

[furlong]

A few more things you should check - can you see exactly which train you were booked to travel upon from Luton according to your ticket, and work out what time the actual train you used was?
If the trains were not running on time that might have contributed to the problem.

 

[bb21]

I would suggest that you sleep on it tonight and allow yourself time to calm down.

Then read the thread again tomorrow as there is plenty of good advice in the thread. Ignore the criticisms if you do so wish. It is up to you whether to take it onboard, but don't leave out the useful advice in the thread. Things are bad enough at the moment. The last thing you want to do is to make a rash decision in the heat of the moment and make it worse.

I don't think you are looking at this with a cool head at the moment. Leave it to tomorrow. It won't change much.