Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[OwenB]

The inners look fairy grim this morning. Normally they are propping up the rest of the service. Need to check but does the 0602 WGC - London ever run as scheduled?

I've caught that train from Hatfield (06.07) on a few occasions, but it is cancelled more frequently than the 05.55 from Hatfield, but they're usefully usually cancelled as a pair...

 

[jon0844]

Looks like they're struggling again this morning from WGC/HAT with the early London-bound trains. Only the 6.25 has run since the 4.04. 6.37 now delayed/cancelled. The 6.55 will be rammed

Decided that the 6.13 HAT-MOG would be safest this morning

The 0632 from WGC did run. It was late out the sidings.

 

[tsd123]

Holy Grails and Thameslink Fails (part 2): The plan that went wrong (London Reconnections)

 

[hwl]

Holy Grails and Thameslink Fails (part 2): The plan that went wrong (London Reconnections)

Nothing quite like a bit of factual analysis based on data instead of wibble...

 

[hwl]

My simple view about GTR is that they knew.

1. All the drivers need to have class 700 traction knowledge.

2. All GN drivers need to have knowledge of the route at least to London Blackfriars.

3. Similar with “south of the river drivers” they need to know the route to at least Finsbury Park

4. The draft timetables needed a higher number of drivers to be trained on the above 3 points than the final one.

GTR wasn’t progressing fast enough on 1-3. But suddenly it is all network rails fault. We probably will never know what % had traction/ route knowledge on 22nd May. But the key fact was not enough and I fail to see why that was going to change if network rail had delivered the timetable at T-12. As I said no one has much confidence it will be delivered at T+12. (With this T being 22nd May). Hopefully GTR will be back in October explaining why the have failed yet again. It is going to be a grim summer for travel on GTR.

Northern I expect will be sorted by then.

And 0. As pre requisite GTR needed more 700s earlier to enable 1. to happen earlier so 2. and 3. could happen.

Completely disagree on 4. The ultimate aim is each TL service is most efficient with all drivers for a certain route (e.g. route = TL5 Peterborough - Horsham etc. ) trained end to end so a mix of end to end driving and driver changes on route can be used.

 

[Failed Unit]

And 0. As pre requisite GTR needed more 700s earlier to enable 1. to happen earlier so 2. and 3. could happen.

Completely disagree on 4. The ultimate aim is each TL service is most efficient with all drivers for a certain route (e.g. route = TL5 Peterborough - Horsham etc. ) trained end to end so a mix of end to end driving and driver changes on route can be used.

I will rephrase 4.

The “consultation” timetable had a half hourly Peterborough- Horsham service.

Let’s say when they devised that if was planned they needed 10 drivers - get them trained.

Network rail comes back and they need 12 as a result. They are 2 short so some cancellations.

It appears they only have 4 so therefore always going to fail.

(Numbers illustrative not real). But the article above is very insightful.

Multiple failures, in multiple organisations with GTR having a portion of the blame as well. (Not that they will ever admit it while they think they can hide behind network rail)

 

[47421]

The ultimate aim is each TL service is most efficient with all drivers for a certain route

Yes that is a laudable ultimate aim, but when do GTR anticipate delivering it? Reports suggest only 9 of 90 and 2 of 40 Horsham drivers fully route / traction trained 20 May. And earlier comments on this thread suggest Luton and St Albans depots also seriously under-resourced.

Seriously what is best guess for when GTR will be running a more or less reliable 1TPH from Peterborough and Cambridge through the core?

 

[infobleep]

There is a debate on rail services from Hassock in Westminster Hall from 11am. It will be available online and after.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/33447f5c-4978-4b1d-a709-3053088aa183

 

[malc-c]

Why not give Horton's job to Branson ? (haw haw haw)

I thought Horton had taken over Easyjet this weekend - my wife's flight from Spain was 90 minutes late

 

[Failed Unit]

I see the continued decline of Great Northern this quarter in the PF survey. (This is before the timetable change). Thameslink was going up. Interestingly the comfort of the seat was up 7% with 62% satisfaction.

I suspect they will both fall of a cliff, although as Great Northern is the brand operating and Thameslink isn’t that is harsh. Passengers including myself will still locally use great northern.

Next one will be nasty for GTR companies except probably Southern.

 

[notverydeep]

Still getting 'deleted' trains turn up now and again. Having missed the 0802 from Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross, I was relying on the usual replacement for the 0822 (2C13, the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross) which is an additional stop on 1R09, the 0738 Royston - King's Cross, that has been routinely getting additional Stevenage and WGC stops. Although this has been rammed full when I have used it previously. I was still disappointed to see this power through non stop about right time.

Then a few minutes later, the supervisor (the ever enthusiastic Robin) suddenly announced that despite it not showing on the platform screens (or either of National Rail Live Departure Boards or Real Time Trains), 2C13 was running and was 5 minutes away. And so it was, full but not rammed and it even got the fast line from Marshmoor Junction to Finsbury Park, despite the Potters Bar stop, where it took the passengers completely by surprise. The train did then show on the Open Train Times map but with no timings. It managed to stay just enough ahead of the following Virgin service, to avoid impeding it. On arrival at King's Cross, the driver announced he expected to be working it tomorrow as well. Here's hoping...

 

[Failed Unit]

That must really annoy someone at one of the smaller villages that has driven to Royston based upon the fact that no trains are planned to call at these stations in the rush hour and then find said train stopped. Likewise the many people driving to WGC from the north as it is the only way you can get to work on time.....

 

[notverydeep]

That must really annoy someone at one of the smaller villages that has driven to Royston based upon the fact that no trains are planned to call at these stations in the rush hour and then find said train stopped. Likewise the many people driving to WGC from the north as it is the only way you can get to work on time.....

It emphasises that while there is considerable disruption, there are also a fair number of people each day who miss out on a better journey that would have been possible, because the morass of cancellations has still not been consolidated into a coherent emergency plan. This means that much is up to service managers / controllers to decide the day / hour before and they aren't able to communicate their last minute plan effectively (the excellent London Reconnections article linked above suggest they resourced enough)...

 

[Failed Unit]

It emphasises that while there is considerable disruption, there are also a fair number of people each day who miss out on a better journey that would have been possible, because the morass of cancellations has still not been consolidated into a coherent emergency plan. This means that much is up to service managers / controllers to decide the day / hour before and they aren't able to communicate their last minute plan effectively (the excellent London Reconnections article linked above suggest they resourced enough)...

I agree. If the xxyy is going to be cancelled every day so be it. But publish it along with the alternatives. Then try where possible to fill in some of the gaps by published extra stops. Although I do suspect that with your experience of when they stop the Baldock’s additionally no-one can get on. Hopefully some can get off to change into the Moorgate line.

Sounds like it will be Mid July before we see the revised timetable. Which will nearly be 12 weeks after they got the timetable from network rail. The 12 weeks they claim they needed to fully resource this one....

 

[OwenB]

If the xxyy is going to be cancelled every day so be it

Spot on. What people (well, me) really hate is a) different services being cancelled each day and b) services being cancelled at zero notice.

 

[notverydeep]

I agree. If the xxyy is going to be cancelled every day so be it. But publish it along with the alternatives. Then try where possible to fill in some of the gaps by published extra stops. Although I do suspect that with your experience of when they stop the Baldock’s additionally no-one can get on. Hopefully some can get off to change into the Moorgate line.

I think you can usually squeeze on to the Baldock / Royston - King's Cross trains making additional stops, though you won't have a comfortable ride. This is because they are not really stopping for the benefit of WGC passengers going to King's Cross, but for passengers commuting from further north to WGC itself or Hatfield, Welham Green industrial area etc. (and hence why they also stop additionally at Stevenage). This means that there are always a fair number of alighters, who do leave a little room for boarders. Most of the WGC - King's Cross commuters have resigned themselves to the slower King's Cross trains that start at WGC and which have generally run (the 0732, 0802 and 0832 departures) and information about extra stops is short notice or non existent. This means that the number of passengers waiting on the platform for 1R09 (0738 from Royston) is quite a bit lower than the number taking either the 07:55 or 08:25 from WGC in the previous timetable.

 

[bramling]

Spot on. What people (well, me) really hate is a) different services being cancelled each day and b) services being cancelled at zero notice.

Unfortunately it’s largely inevitable due to the nature of drivers working a roster. Different people are rostered to do different duties each day, so the cancellations will be different until such time as someone sits down and plans, and then notice still has to be given to drivers.

 

[jon0844]

Still getting 'deleted' trains turn up now and again. Having missed the 0802 from Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross, I was relying on the usual replacement for the 0822 (2C13, the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross) which is an additional stop on 1R09, the 0738 Royston - King's Cross, that has been routinely getting additional Stevenage and WGC stops. Although this has been rammed full when I have used it previously. I was still disappointed to see this power through non stop about right time.

Then a few minutes later, the supervisor (the ever enthusiastic Robin) suddenly announced that despite it not showing on the platform screens (or either of National Rail Live Departure Boards or Real Time Trains), 2C13 was running and was 5 minutes away. And so it was, full but not rammed and it even got the fast line from Marshmoor Junction to Finsbury Park, despite the Potters Bar stop, where it took the passengers completely by surprise. The train did then show on the Open Train Times map but with no timings. It managed to stay just enough ahead of the following Virgin service, to avoid impeding it. On arrival at King's Cross, the driver announced he expected to be working it tomorrow as well. Here's hoping...

Last night one of the last Moorgate trains ran 20 minutes late, but was never put on the boards so it departed without a single person on it and probably won't have picked anyone up unless they were brave enough to just hang around on the off chance that some trains did run despite disruption mode showing nothing. It's sadly quite a regular occurrence at the moment, and it's just as frustrating to discover you missed a train because you went to get a coffee (or stayed at home a bit longer) than being at the station and finding your train cancelled last minute. This needs to stop.

 

[OwenB]

Unfortunately it’s largely inevitable due to the nature of drivers working a roster. Different people are rostered to do different duties each day, so the cancellations will be different until such time as someone sits down and plans, and then notice still has to be given to drivers.

Understood. Surely the cancelling with no notice shouldn't be a matter of course though? Theoretically, they should be able to go through the next x number of days and know which services will run each day given the rosters, even if they happen to be different services on each day.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Disappointing that the TSC never got to debate the total loss of confidence in the station PIS displays and passenger information generally.
They discussed the financial impact of the cancellations but the TOCs were noticeably reticent in offering any commercial facts.
As far as I can see NR pays compensation to the TOCs for infrastructure delays/possessions, but TOC cancellations are another thing altogether.
It was clear that PRM measures don't pick up the impact of multiple cancellations.

I also thought the LNW MD Martin Frobisher had an easy time on Northern infrastructure slippages, and the late notice of the delays.
Jo Kaye (the System Operator) was his predecessor at LNW, so she would know the issues in detail as well.
It wasn't only bad luck (ground conditions), there were contractual problems as well.
The NR SE man found himself saying there was a need for a "guiding mind" to look at the bigger picture and assess the overall risk that the timetable might fail.
I thought that was what the System Operator's job was!
However Jo seemed to think it was a collaborative process and consensus won out that it would be OK on the night.
Northern were on the wrong side of this debate, being the only TOC to object to the May timetable going ahead.
They had no veto (and neither did anyone else), and duly fell over the cliff like GTR, but for rather different reasons.

 

[bramling]

Understood. Surely the cancelling with no notice shouldn't be a matter of course though? Theoretically, they should be able to go through the next x number of days and know which services will run each day given the rosters, even if they happen to be different services on each day.

That’s if there’s anyone who has the time to actually go through and do that. The main expertise with regard to duty schedules lies either with the scheduling people themselves, or with the train crew managers. I would imagine both are pretty much snowed under. It’s a very specialist area and not something a layman can be expected to deal with on the fly. Even if all planned out, this doesn’t account for reactionary delays, the classic one being a driver delayed on their way to work, or the normal stuff like sickness, childcare and the like (on that score things may well get worse once the summer holidays arrive).

The evil thing about crew-related cancellations is more than your immediate cancellations can be affected. Say you run a simple end-to-end line and your driver is booked to take the train from A to B, but is unavailable. The train is now stuck at A, and may not be able to be left there so the incoming driver has to take it to a siding, now making him late for his next train. The next driver is waiting at B, but the train is now in a siding at A. So the return trip from B to A is cancelled, and the next trip is also late starting out as the driver has to find a way of getting to A and bringing the train out of the siding. Multiple journeys are now delayed just as a result of one trip being cancelled. Obviously the more planning that can be done then the more opportunity there is to do things to prevent the downward spiral setting in, but once you get to the point where there’s so much going on then the systems tend to break down, phones not being answered, more and more going wrong, et cetera.

 

[Bikeman78]

I went to the Transport Select Committee Meeting at Portcullis House today. There was a packed public gallery - I doubt there's never been more interest in the TSC! I thought GTR got off quite lightely, certainly not the blood bath I expected. Anyway, here's my take on the GTR crisis from what I heard today.

GTR bid for the timetable in August 2017. DfT decided to phase in the timetable meaning that it had to be ripped up and started again. The same situation happened in the North West with delays due to electrification and to a lesser extend in Scotland due to delays with new rolling stock. The timetable was not finalised until a few days beforehand.

As I mentioned in another thread, this doesn't stack up. The proposed Horsham to Peterborough service hasn't changed since last June. GTR hasn't trained enough Horsham drivers to run the service. Equally it has failed to train Brighton and Bedford drivers on the new layout through London Bridge. All the talk of late timetables is just a smokescreen to cover up the fact that it hasn't trained enough drivers.

 

[Bikeman78]

Did Thameslink run any trains at all today (18th June) to the Medway towns? I had a look periodically during the day and from Slade Green at least every single train was either delayed (seemingly permanently) or cancelled!

I'm feeling so sorry for those poor souls at Higham every day

Peterborough to Horsham is no better. Train after train cancelled every day. Littlehaven and Ifield get a few stops on the Bognor trains (seemingly at the whim of the controller on duty at the time) whilst Arlesey to Huntingdon inclusive get nothing for hours at a time. From Peterborough so far today:

0624 cancelled
0654 ran
0724 terminated Gatwick
0754 cancelled
0824 cancelled
0857 cancelled
0926 ran
0954 ran
1024 cancelled
1054 terminated King's Cross
1124 cancelled
1154 cancelled
1224 cancelled
1254 terminated Three Bridges
1324 cancelled
1354 ran
1424 cancelled
1454 ran
1524 ran
1554 ran
1624 cancelled
1654 cancelled

 

[Bikeman78]

The inners look fairy grim this morning. Normally they are propping up the rest of the service. Need to check but does the 0602 WGC - London ever run as scheduled?

How have they managed to screw those up? They ran like clockwork before and the peak frequency hasn't changed much.

 

[CMS]

Deleted

 

[Failed Unit]

How have they managed to screw those up? They ran like clockwork before and the peak frequency hasn't changed much.

Infrastructure failure in the Hertford loop from what I understand. It amused me when they advised people to take buses to the Welwyn route. Which is suffering from extra passengers displaced by the lack of trains into Kings Cross.

 

[bramling]

Infrastructure failure in the Hertford loop from what I understand. It amused me when they advised people to take buses to the Welwyn route. Which is suffering from extra passengers displaced by the lack of trains into Kings Cross.

I took 1R66 home, having been dropped in London by car for the way up. Being one of the 365 “Pullman” services it ran, although delayed due to extra stops, plus a load of confusion as naturally the driver wasn’t aware, nor was the signaller, and then after stopping at Welwyn it was held at Digswell to allow a VTEC through - demonstrating the point about how small delays end up spiralling into bigger ones as if not on path there will nearly always be something conflicting at junctions.

Again it was sheer bliss to be on 2x365, not having used them much for a bit the comfortable seats, tables and natural ventilation make for a so much more pleasant journey experience. Despite the delay the journey didn’t seem to drag. There have been quite a few gaps to various destinations today, and I hear there were some 4-cars floating about again too.

 

[OwenB]

They've started removing services from the apps live now, rather than only overnight. 5.55 HAT-KGX was showing as running when I checked at 5.15, but disappeared. I thought they were supposed to mark up these on the day cancellations as 'cancelled' or are they just making things up as they go along?

 

[Hadders]

They've started removing services from the apps live now, rather than only overnight. 5.55 HAT-KGX was showing as running when I checked at 5.15, but disappeared. I thought they were supposed to mark up these on the day cancellations as 'cancelled' or are they just making things up as they go along?

They've been making it up as they go along since this shambles started. Most cancelled trains are just removed rather than being shown as cancelled from what I can see.

Being one of the 365 “Pullman” services it ran...

Again it was sheer bliss to be on 2x365, not having used them much for a bit the comfortable seats, tables and natural ventilation make for a so much more pleasant journey experience. Despite the delay the journey didn’t seem to drag. There have been quite a few gaps to various destinations today, and I hear there were some 4-cars floating about again too.

I also had the pleasure of a 365 'Pullman' yesterday and agree with everything you say. I do hope Edinburgh - Glasgow passengers come to appreciate the 365s.

 

[jon0844]

Everything scheduled, bar one train, at WGC ran this morning from 0400 to 0702 (not looked since). People were somewhat shocked! Even the Horsham train ran!!