Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[talldave]

Someone on Thameslink's twitter had the audacity to challenge yesterday's 100% PPM figures !

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/about-us/how-were-performing/daily-performance-report

 

[ComUtoR]

You would have thought that when a driver (I presume they do this) signs "onto" the train with his code - it would say something along the lines of
"You are NOT trained to drive this route between X & Y"

This is not what we do.

 

[BluePenguin]

You would have thought that when a driver (I presume they do this) signs "onto" the train with his code - it would say something along the lines of
"You are NOT trained to drive this route between X & Y"

I agree, having a system in place like this would be bery useful.

However, if a driver had not been trained to drive that route why were they scheduled to drive it in the first place? If they then decide to try and drive the train despite not having the necessary training and then stuck get stuck along the way, causing severe delays with other trains piling up, then they need the book thrown at them for not using their common sense.

Never knew they would draft in drivers incompetent with the route they are meant to drive who try and drive despite knowing what they are doing is wrong, instead of reporting the fact there is a problem. Complete idiots!

Even before they get to the train they should check their diagrams and would notice.

 

[BluePenguin]

This is not what we do.

When it should be what is done. If anything it would be a safety mechanism to prevent the train being driven by people not trained to.

I certainly wouldn't want to be on a train travelling at speed whilst being driven by someone with no clue how to drive. There could be a serious accident.

 

[bionic]

I don't know any drivers who would deliberately drive a train over a route they didn't sign. It's not an issue. If you get a diagram you don't sign you ring them up and tell them and they either get a conductor driver, cancel it or divert it accordingly.

Are people saying that drivers have knowingly worked trains over routes they don't sign? I find this very hard to believe.

 

[ComUtoR]

When it should be what is done. If anything it would be a safety mechanism to prevent the train being driven by people not trained to.

I certainly wouldn't want to be on a train travelling at speed whilst being driven by someone with no clue how to drive. There could be a serious accident.

It is so far from what happens and what you describe is ludicrus. There is already a mechanism in place and any method that allows a non trained driver to get in a just get a message would be about as safe as a concrete parachute.

 

[whoosh]

With regards to Sunday and a lack of Drivers - to my knowledge there was no 'militancy' or 'barbeque'.
New permanent rosters (May to December) should've been posted two weeks prior to taking effect. This didn't happen because there was a delay from train planning in issuing the duties, so the permanent rosters (or 'links') couldn't be made up for this deadline (and it wasn't missed by a mere day or so). Mention was made of an issue with Network Rail.


With some drivers moving depots, and pretty much everyone not sure what their rest days were or what shift they were on (AMs, PMs, or nights) I would guess many chose to say they were 'unavailable' on Sunday as they didn't find out until very late on, what time between 0001 and 2359 they were going to be booked to come to work. Unable to make plans around work for the Sunday with enough notice, they simply threw it in.

I expect an improvement, certainly for Kings Cross and Moorgate trains, on future Sundays.


With regards to today and the coming weeks, I've described here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-may-20th-and-21st.163752/page-2#post-3443535 the logistical challenges posed, and you can perhaps judge for yourself how much work there is still to be done.

 

[tsr]

(Re. Post 180 in particular...)

The problem is more that it is well-known that the drivers don’t sign the new routes, but they are rostered for routes for which a route conductor (known by TL as “pilot drivers”) should be available. This has its pitfalls.

When you pick up your diagram/schedule card for the day, you are meant to check it complies with your route and traction knowledge - or ensure somebody can conduct/pilot you by accompanying you. This system applies across the country to both drivers and (where applicable) guards.

If you are a GN driver and somebody assures you that you will pick up your pilot at Station X (say Finsbury Park) and they will show you the route from there, then off you go, driving your train to meet them. Then when the service arrives at the appropriate point, you wait for your pilot. If all goes well, they’ll board the train, confirm the necessary details, and off the service goes.

Unfortunately every conceivable driver who signs the new routes via St Pancras / London Bridge is route conducting, and the resources are currently deployed with very little slack/flexibility because it’s a case of “all hands to the pumps and we might just cope”. Therefore the slightest thing which goes wrong will displace the crew who are competent to take trains on new routes through the core. This is basically what happened a few times yesterday afternoon, building up into something of a chaotic backlog.

Running out of pilot drivers is definitely something which is an operational difficulty, though that is not necessarily the best explanation for the public domain. Sadly I am not sure the CIS systems on stations can actually process and clearly explain the exact reasons, as they may not be present in the pre-recorded messages - and the announcements against trains on the likes of the NRE website generally also use preset text, which is sometimes not that easy to modify.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess that is why we are seeing such long delays at Finsbury Park. Then last minute diversion into Kings Cross. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[WeGoAgain]

Every Driver signs the route into Kings Cross, which I suspect is where the "2C" headcoded Train was destined to go.

However if a wrong route is given by the Signaller, that's a different subject and by no means indicates said Driver deliberately started their job knowing the were not competent in the entire route.

 

[whoosh]

Never knew they would draft in drivers incompetent with the route they are meant to drive who try and drive despite knowing what they are doing is wrong, instead of reporting the fact there is a problem. Complete idiots!

No one is driving onto a route they don't sign. In fact, it's a stupid suggestion. They would be relieved by or conducted by a driver who does sign the route.
So a Cambridge driver who doesn't sign to Brighton, drives to Finsbury Park, he gets relived by another driver, and the train happily goes on its way. Except if a driver who signs Canal Tunnels isn't available. Then the Cambridge driver takes the train to Kings Cross. Is there room at Kings Cross for the train?

Another train arrives northbound at Finsbury Park from the Core. Needs a relieving driver. It should be that Cambridge driver, but they are at Kings Cross now.

Another Brighton driver signs on for work. He has route knowledge all the way to Cambridge. But his train is the one above now sat at Kings Cross. Now he can't get to Cambridge, have his break and work another one back.
Delays. Delays. Delays.

When everyone signs the routes they need to, it'll run okay. Until then, there will need to be changes of Driver en route, with associated knock on delays.

 

[Hadders]

If driver training is a problem why not have some drivers specifically to do the Finsbury Park - London Bridge section?

 

[WeGoAgain]

Possibly the powers that be not wanting such a logical solution.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
Running out of pilot drivers is definitely something which is an operational difficulty, though that is not necessarily the best explanation for the public domain. Sadly I am not sure the CIS systems on stations can actually process and clearly explain the exact reasons, as they may not be present in the pre-recorded messages - and the announcements against trains on the likes of the NRE website generally also use preset text, which is sometimes not that easy to modify.

Unfortunately the description on the Thameslink and Great Northern 'Train Service Updates' page and also the relevant NRE service alteration page (it's the same text on all sites) initially makes reference to "new carriages" and the problem of these not being at the right depots, and only later under the (gramatically incorrect) heading of "I want to know more?" does it suggest there is an issue of drivers not being trained on the new routes, and it doesn't suggest it in a particularly direct manner either.

'Operational difficulties' and 'logistical problems' are kinda rubbish reasons - admittedly people aren't going to be best pleased by the idea that enough drivers haven't been trained in time for a project (i.e. the Thameslink Programme) that began nine years ago, but I think it's nonetheless preferable to be open and honest about it.

(Just to be absoloutely clear, I'm not addressing this point at you tsr - your contributions on these and other matters from an insider's perspective are most interesting and welcome!)

 

[bramling]

No one is driving onto a route they don't sign. In fact, it's a stupid suggestion. They would be relieved by or conducted by a driver who does sign the route.
So a Cambridge driver who doesn't sign to Brighton, drives to Finsbury Park, he gets relived by another driver, and the train happily goes on its way. Except if a driver who signs Canal Tunnels isn't available. Then the Cambridge driver takes the train to Kings Cross. Is there room at Kings Cross for the train?

Another train arrives northbound at Finsbury Park from the Core. Needs a relieving driver. It should be that Cambridge driver, but they are at Kings Cross now.

Another Brighton driver signs on for work. He has route knowledge all the way to Cambridge. But his train is the one above now sat at Kings Cross. Now he can't get to Cambridge, have his break and work another one back.
Delays. Delays. Delays.

When everyone signs the routes they need to, it'll run okay. Until then, there will need to be changes of Driver en route, with associated knock on delays.

Delays delays delays, as you rightly say. Once the driver issue eventually gets sorted, this will still happen, simply caused by all the other things that can and do go wrong on a railway.

It’s sad to see all the good operational management work done by WAGN under National Express now in tatters. They really turned round a mess left by Prism into a top rate operation, now we are back where we started if not worse.

 

[Failed Unit]

That is my problem with GTR. They won’t tell the truth and the mainstream media is not probing them enough. This has gone on for years.

Let’s take the stock in the right place as the reason. They have known about the timetable change for years. This should be the most basic task to complete. If they can’t get this right what hope we have. Same with the driver training. Hopefully when someone digs this up it will be discovers again GTR failed to plan and the whole thing was always doomed to fail.

Sadly GTR are untouchable- maybe as if they got kicked out like they deserve DfT will be asked some uncomfortable questions about why the bid was ever accepted.

Lots of delay repay to claim (get rejected and need to appeal). The only good thing to come out of this is if GTR go. Unfortunately i doubt it. Notice the GTR apologists have gone. (Although they will just say give it time. Operation princes took a while to bed down. )

 

[bramling]

That is my problem with GTR. They won’t tell the truth and the mainstream media is not probing them enough. This has gone on for years.

Let’s take the stock in the right place as the reason. They have known about the timetable change for years. This should be the most basic task to complete. If they can’t get this right what hope we have. Same with the driver training. Hopefully when someone digs this up it will be discovers again GTR failed to plan and the whole thing was always doomed to fail.

Sadly GTR are untouchable- maybe as if they got kicked out like they deserve DfT will be asked some uncomfortable questions about why the bid was ever accepted.

Lots of delay repay to claim (get rejected and need to appeal). The only good thing to come out of this is if GTR go. Unfortunately i doubt it. Notice the GTR apologists have gone. (Although they will just say give it time. Operation princes took a while to bed down. )

Yes the GTR apologists are strangely quiet, wonder why?

It’s not just GTR, though they are exquisitely incompetent - the DFT are involved in this fiasco too. Which as you rightly say possibly explains why GTR appear rather untouchable.

 

[jonm]

Sadly GTR are untouchable

Why are they untouchable?

 

[southernyoshi]

Are GTR untouchable because their real raison d'être as given by DfT was not to run a usable train service, but solely to break the RMT at all costs? Sure seems like it when you look at their track record - any other TOC would've been kicked out years ago on the Connex precedent.

 

[Darandio]

Why are they untouchable?

Because it's just a government puppet. Or to put it in simplistic terms, anyone that could hold them to account is already implicated in the mess.

 

[Failed Unit]

Why are they untouchable?

DfT have blood on their hands so to speak. I expect they don’t want the public to know if they loaded the gun, selected the target and just left GTR to pull the trigger. Most of the class 700 design flaws are down to DfT. GTR get the blame. DfT are encouraging the bust up with the unions. GTR takes the blame. Don’t get me wrong GTRs incompetence is the reason for this mess. But lots for DfT incompetence will be highlighted during the course of this franchise if they get stripped of it. Hence why they are untouchable.

 

[otomous]

I never mentioned the union as giving any advice to anyone.

The suggestion is that some drivers deliberately didn't volunteer to RDW to help make sure things went wrong. As is their right (not to work).

But if any went sick, that's another matter. I am sure all will become clear in the coming days because I can see that a potential for some weeks of disruption will mean someone being called to answer questions by the Government very soon.

And as they say, don't shoot the messenger!

“There might also be a need to check if any union recommended not doing overtime/RDW to mess things up for political gain!”

 

[notverydeep]

0808 WGC - Moorgate left very late strange as it was sat on Platform 1 for ages. Left after 0824. Missing out stations south of potters bar.
0822 Faster service ran early throughout as a result of nothing on the slow line and isn’t crush loaded.
0824 looked ok.
I expect the service will struggle to recover afterwards as 0832 will be stuck in train jam. Massive gap in service for inners.
No trains to moorgate between 0840 and 0900 because of combination of delays and cancellations.
Operation princess 2 anyone. (This is good weather as well)

Bet the meet the manager session on Thursday does not happen.

Update. 5 trains at Finsbury Park. A Pair of 365s, the Peterborough- Horsham and the Cambridge- Kings cross. No one knows what is moving first. Smart money on the 365.

The 0832 (2Y17 to King's Cross) was indeed held up between Welwyn Garden City and Potters Bar was 5 minutes late from there to Finsbury Park. Once the 0808 reached that point the skip stopping enabled it to get ahead and the delay for the 0832 stayed at 5 minutes. The skip stopping seemed completely devoid of understanding of the key traffic flows. Both the 0808 (2K34 to Moorgate) and 0824 (2K37 to Moorgate) still called at Welham Green and Brookmans Park (generally the quietest of the stations on the slow lines from Welwyn to Alexandra Palace), but both missed the far busier Oakleigh Park and New Southgate (the 0824 as booked). Surely a better option would have been for the 0808 to skip stations to Hadley Wood and get well ahead of the 0824, which duplicated its calls up to that point and left Welwyn Garden City simultaneously? The 0832 picked up some of the passengers at Oakleigh Park and New Southgate leaving many having to change at Finsbury Park. This is exactly the sort of delay propogation due to the interaction between Moorgate services and other trains on the slow lines that I fear will become the timetable's Achilles heal...

As an aside, this is the first time I have seen pairs of class 313s make a parallel start southbound from Welwyn Garden City, the 0808 from platform 1 and the 0824 from platform 3 via the flyover!

A further opportunity missed by the signallers / controllers that I spotted affected 9J15 0754 Peterborough to Horsham. This was on time until it joined the queue of trains on the up fast line (because of the earlier wrong route offered incident) at New Southgate. It could have been crossed to the Slow line at New Southgate, which was at that point clear all the way to its booked path to call Finsbury Park platform 2 just behind the 0832 from Welwyn Garden City and it would not have delayed anything else and would have got through more or less on time. Instead, it queued up and crossed over just north of Finsbury Park Station having lost 9 minutes by that point!

Having noted the above, today was nothing like as bad as Sunday's woeful performance, which I endured between Welwyn Garden City and East Croydon. Almost no Cambridge slows at all, with my family having to use the odd Moorgate train still running and divert back to pre Thameslink routes in both directions, all four of our planned trains being cancelled. Nothing short of an embarrassment to our industry. Sunday has been the industry's fastest growing day of the week - an opportunity we seem almost determined to frustrate.

 

[spangles]

Having previously been on the inside and now away from the mess, I would say the reason that GTR are untouchable is DFT are aware that what was asked to be delivered in the bidding process, was actually not deliverable by any TOC. The amount of training, timetable changes, fleet changes, engineering work, varying contracts, integration of dofferent TOCs etc.

No one could have delivered it smoothly, although GTR have managed to shoot themselves in the foot so much, that what was set up to be very bad, turned into an unmitigated disaster.

There will be no desire to nationalise GTR yet. If the government were to take over, the immediate short term issues would not be resolved. Its much better to let GTR suffer the heat until there are enough drivers trained, workers contracts are aligned, network improvements complete and fleet cascades settled. Once everything is running smoothly the contract can either be retendered or handed back to the Government.

For the DFT to take the contract now would be undesirable for them. Note how through all of this however that it is the passenger who suffers.

 

[gingerheid]

The good news among all the disruption is the successful opening of LTLPL22 station, which is being served by King's Lynn trains just after Littleport. Apparently.

Core to Cambridge really isn't happening though, is it? The services aren't even on the departure boards

 

[Antman]

It's an easy mistake since both are opening around the same time more of less! it would be good if Crossrail did come to Medway, but I doubt it, TfL seem very focused on Gravesend/Ebbsfleet as their south eastern terminus, which is fair enough.

How is the Rainham service going so far?

Yes it's an understandable mistake.

I'm probably being a tad optimistic in hoping to see Crossrail trains going to Rainham at some future date but they would be far more useful than Thameslink, who really wants to travel into London on a train that serves almost every station on the way? I do actually travel from Rochester to Luton now and again but I'll stick to paying a bit more for the HS service and get there in about half the time, no fewer than 29 intermediate stops on the Thameslink. The service is currently disrupted along with the rest of the network it seems, I'll wait for things to settle down a bit before taking a ride.

 

[Deepgreen]

DfT have blood on their hands so to speak. I expect they don’t want the public to know if they loaded the gun, selected the target and just left GTR to pull the trigger. Most of the class 700 design flaws are down to DfT. GTR get the blame. DfT are encouraging the bust up with the unions. GTR takes the blame. Don’t get me wrong GTRs incompetence is the reason for this mess. But lots for DfT incompetence will be highlighted during the course of this franchise if they get stripped of it. Hence why they are untouchable.

The service provided has been, and is still, horribly inadequate, so the voters are told that they can vote with their feet - but, will the apathetic Tory voters in GTR-shire change their blinkered habits? No, of course not, even though their much favoured so-called 'competition' in the privatised railway has failed to deliver the promised benefits again and again.

 

[twpsaesneg]

The good news among all the disruption is the successful opening of LTLPL22 station, which is being served by King's Lynn trains just after Littleport. Apparently.

Off topic but I suspect this refers to signal L22 just north of Littleport which protects the single line to Downham Market - I'm guessing the train involved is timed to stand there for a bit awaiting a southbound working. Obviously shouldn't be on the boards though!

Edited to add - in fact here's a listing of all such services today!
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
Always pleased to provide useless info

 

[bramling]

The service provided has been, and is still, horribly inadequate, so the voters are told that they can vote with their feet - but, will the apathetic Tory voters in GTR-shire change their blinkered habits? No, of course not, even though their much favoured so-called 'competition' in the privatised railway has failed to deliver the promised benefits again and again.

Sadly this is probably about right. People may well be able to lobby their MP, and if enough MPs make enough noise then notice might be taken.

Remember too it's not all solid blue - Stevenage for example is a marginal constituency, and saw a Labour MP during the Blair years IIRC.

Meanwhile, many voters may also see the connection with population growth, for which they are more likely to blame Labour. Likewise there are voters who sit in traffic on the A1(M) every morning remembering that in 1997 it was on the cards to be widened around the Welwyn area until Labour got in and John Prescott cancelled the scheme.

 

[Sgiot]

With regards to Sunday and a lack of Drivers - to my knowledge there was no 'militancy' or 'barbeque'.
New permanent rosters (May to December) should've been posted two weeks prior to taking effect. This didn't happen because there was a delay from train planning in issuing the duties, so the permanent rosters (or 'links') couldn't be made up for this deadline (and it wasn't missed by a mere day or so). Mention was made of an issue with Network Rail.


With some drivers moving depots, and pretty much everyone not sure what their rest days were or what shift they were on (AMs, PMs, or nights) I would guess many chose to say they were 'unavailable' on Sunday as they didn't find out until very late on, what time between 0001 and 2359 they were going to be booked to come to work. Unable to make plans around work for the Sunday with enough notice, they simply threw it in.

This is pretty much spot on. We’ve been asking for weeks when the new diagrams will be available . I opted to work yesterday but only received the diagrams for the new timetable on Thursday. Also, last year, via ballot, it was agreed that from January ‘18 , drivers would compulsory work a minimum of 8 Sunday’s , which we would need to nominate at the beginning of each year. For some reason, this hasn’t been implemented by the company yet. If it had have been, as agreed, I doubt yesterday’s car crash would been anywhere near as bad.