Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[mongoose]

His daughter works in Welwyn.

But yes, the inners are generally working well.

I've caught the 7.24 WGC-Moorgate everyday this week and other than Monday it has been fairly lightly loaded. I was quite surprised. I think people are still choosing to get the "fast" services.

 

[Floydlover25]

According to RTT site, it's still running - 9J35

And I do have a contingency plan - catch the next VTEC train into London!!!

12.54 is showing as cancelled on NRE

 

[bramling]

One observation of your post:
"... enforcing new Timetable & routes with new trains ... " Have any delays related to the new timetable been attributed to the use of 'new trains'? In this thread there are posts from regulars who before the timetable changes have repeatedly criticised the class 700s (which are the only new trains on GTR services), but have (sometimes grudgingly) praised the trains' exceptional ability to clear vast numbers of delayed passengers from crowded platforms. In my view, that is saying that other rolling stock would not have performed so well at a time when the real need was to transport as many passengers as possible.
Cynically some might concoct a conspiracy theory that the DfT et al, engineered the timetabling problems to create public gratitude for "the huge investment in rolling stock already made" in the 700s' people-moving capabilities. I think that would be a theory too far though!

So, in summary, create a problem that wasn’t there before (failure of a timetable), then “solve” it with crappy uncomfortable trains. Sounds like a great plan - could even call it RailPlan!

In the real world, I think it’s a fair bet every single user at my local station would do anything to have the old timetable and the 365s back, and not to let this bunch of incompetents anywhere near the railway again. The trains were promised to be comfortable and they aren’t, and now we have a failed timetable - not a great track record of delivery by any measure.

 

[Deepgreen]

What, I wonder, will actually change as a result of this monumental failure? Even now, it appears that the next 'Cross Country' franchise holder is being considered, so the model seems to be set to remain, proven not to work as it has been so many times. Horton and Grayling bolster each other like two sides of a brick arch, and the Tory voter base seems to be more frightened/critical of a nationalised railway (or similar) than of the current shambles. The two principles of privatisation, namely profitability and competition, have long since been shown to be false bases on which to attempt to run the railway, but dogma seems destined to run on and on.

 

[whitrope69]

Horton economical with the truth :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44388190

He may have "sufficient drivers", but they are not trained to run on the revised routes.

the bit I cant get my head around and probably never will is how all this disruption seems to have come as a surprise to GTR. If they really did only have a couple of weeks (which I doubt) to prepare for this timetable then why didn't they have some contingency in place for unforeseen circumstances (although somebody once said all circumstances should be foreseen) why wasn't the timetable launched to the public with a massive health warning that it may not work. Why wasn't a plan B waiting to be pulled off the shelf once plan A began to fall apart. We need to know!

 

[bramling]

the bit I cant get my head around and probably never will is how all this disruption seems to have come as a surprise to GTR. If they really did only have a couple of weeks (which I doubt) to prepare for this timetable then why didn't they have some contingency in place for unforeseen circumstances (although somebody once said all circumstances should be foreseen) why wasn't the timetable launched to the public with a massive health warning that it may not work. Why wasn't a plan B waiting to be pulled off the shelf once plan A began to fall apart. We need to know!

I have heard it suggested that some within the industry (although I don’t know who the some is) wanted this change pushed back to December however DfT were adamant it had to come in this May. Evidently somewhere people knew it wasn’t ready - whether this goes as far as the Hortons and Graylings is another matter.

 

[A0wen]

Well for now my daughter is using the bus between Stevenage and WGC. As she hadn't used her monthly season ticket she took proof of the use of the bus to get to work on Monday and got a full refund. The 4 week season ticket on the bus saves her around £40, but naturally under normal circumstances takes her longer to get to work, but she is more or less guaranteed to get a seat (unlike the trains).

Well, that's always been the case because the bus isn't heading into London - the bus service though slower has always been pretty good between Stevenage and Hatfield.

I see that the head of Govia has said he won't resign.... shame !

And if he had what would that have achieved? This is the kind of dumb grandstanding I get really fed up with - the whole "somebody should resign" mantra - it doesn't change anything, it won't magically mean the timetable gets reverted or anything like it - the timetable will be made to work over the coming weeks that's the basic fact people need to get their head around, because a wholesale change has ramifications elsewhere.

The "symbolic" resignations don't fix anything - and until it's clear where the failure was and how it happened, calling for resignations is pretty pointless.

 

[bramling]

Well, that's always been the case because the bus isn't heading into London - the bus service though slower has always been pretty good between Stevenage and Hatfield.



And if he had what would that have achieved? This is the kind of dumb grandstanding I get really fed up with - the whole "somebody should resign" mantra - it doesn't change anything, it won't magically mean the timetable gets reverted or anything like it - the timetable will be made to work over the coming weeks that's the basic fact people need to get their head around, because a wholesale change has ramifications elsewhere.

The "symbolic" resignations don't fix anything - and until it's clear where the failure was and how it happened, calling for resignations is pretty pointless.

The point of a resignation is often that it gets rid of an incompetent individual, and allows them to be replaced with someone superior. That’s far from pointless.

In Horton’s case he has presided over a shambles which is bad enough, but GTR has demonstrated that it appears to have no idea what is actually going on. This is either a lie, or incompetence - either himself, or at levels within the company he presides over.

 

[Steve Harris]

And if he had what would that have achieved? This is the kind of dumb grandstanding I get really fed up with - the whole "somebody should resign" mantra - it doesn't change anything, it won't magically mean the timetable gets reverted or anything like it - the timetable will be made to work over the coming weeks that's the basic fact people need to get their head around, because a wholesale change has ramifications elsewhere.

The "symbolic" resignations don't fix anything - and until it's clear where the failure was and how it happened, calling for resignations is pretty pointless.

I totally disagree.

If someone is incapable of doing there job or overseeing a project, they should either be sacked or do the honourable thing and resign.

Unfortunately the modern day mantra after a cock up is, i know what went wrong, so I can put it right.
When in fact if they were capable at their job, the cock up wouldn't of happened !

Edit. Got beaten to it by bramling.

 

[AM9]

So, in summary, create a problem that wasn’t there before (failure of a timetable), then “solve” it with crappy uncomfortable trains. Sounds like a great plan - could even call it RailPlan!

I suspect that whether most of the services continue to use the core or not, the class 700s which are specified for the expected growth on the routes that they are deployed on, will be there for the duration of their working life. With 115 of them, there is more than required for the original Thameslink diagrams and the ex-Southern services from London Bridge, so the residue will continue to ply the ex-GN routes as required. Once the teething problems with the new timetable are over, some of the 8-car sets may be extended to 12-car for use on services where the infrastructure allows them to address the increasing passenger levels.

In the real world, I think it’s a fair bet every single user at my local station would do anything to have the old timetable and the 365s back, and not to let this bunch of incompetents anywhere near the railway again. The trains were promised to be comfortable and they aren’t, and now we have a failed timetable - not a great track record of delivery by any measure.

As I said:
"In this thread there are posts from regulars ..." so your view of 'the real world' is another matter. In the real world of the very busy main Thameslink routes, there are passengers* who have found over the last year that they are more effective than the Electrostars (including the 387s) when dealing with peak loads. Where the Electrostars had slightly wider and/or softer seats they are regarded as irrelevant when the lack of space may mean being left on the platform.

* I wouldn't profess to know (or even take a bet on) whether every single user at any station would do anything to have TL's earlier trains back, except maybe for the Bedford lot who take the best seats before the train starts.

 

[bramling]

Realistically I don’t think they can roll back to the previous timetable because of the knock on effects to EMT, VTEC, South Eastern, SWR etc.

I fear it’s going to be a long summer for passengers on GTR. I suspect this shambles is going to go on for months.

I don’t think VTEC would be a major problem - their timetable is barely changed from before, only a few timings tweaked (it’s surprising how little change was necessary for VTEC to fit round everything else). So on the GN side the main issues would be at Cambridge and Peterborough. Not sure how difficult it would be to mesh a reverted GN in with everything else.

There may also be an issue that the old timetable had 4-car working, including some albeit not much dividing and attaching. This might not readily work with 8-car Undesiros, plus you can’t necessarily readily drop a 12-car undesiro on an 8-car service. Having said that it shouldn’t be that hard to make some adjustments to make the diagrams work.

The difficulty appears to be south of the river, where a reversion would likely be impossible, and there is then an issue over what happens with some services.

More likely is a heavily modified timetable with a reduction in through working to and from the core. This is what we should have had all along, a half and half service to give people choice between unreliable but exciting ThamesLink/ and reliable Great Northern. In the long run it’s almost guaranteed this is what we’ll see, we just have to wait for the incompetent Thameslink Programme dreamers to go away / resign / get sacked first.

 

[notverydeep]

Is anyone able to Understand why specifically the Gatwick to Bedford service has collapsed so badly.

There was a perfectly viable Three Bridges to Bedford service operating before the May change that had a full complement of Drivers. Albeit with one change that trains now go through London Bridge rather than Tulse Hill. Since January they have gradually increased the number going through London Bridge as well so I would expect that many of the existing drivers are qualified on that route who drive it but at least it could go through Tulse Hill still

So why is the plan less than 50% of the normal service and it is riddled with daily cancellations meaning probably about 30-40% actually run.

Any Duty Schedule for drivers will attempt to maximise the proportion of the time spent driving within the constraints of the rules and agreements with staff (and this will be as true for road haulage, buses and airlines as for rail). Where I work, about 53% efficiency is achieved across the range of routes. So for every 100 hours of a driver being at work (and paid), 53 will be spent actually driving. The rest is made up of the non driving components of the time for signing on and off (including reading any briefings and notices), getting to and from the train, breaks between driving spells, but more importantly cover duties. These are duties that cover annual leave, sickness and other absence and training.

To get to 53% efficiency, a driving spell might consist of a simple round trip from terminus a to terminus b, but might be a to b, then b to a, then a to c before a break with c to a, a to c and c to a after the break. By and large duties will be put together using an software based optimising technique. The amount of recovery margin to allow will be an input to the software and there will be a direct trade off between extra recovery and efficiency. More recovery equals more drivers and no rail company can afford to have so many spare drivers that significant lateness would have little impact on duties.

Shifts will be of different lengths and will be added together across a week, to give each driving week the same number of paid hours (or it might even out over a longer period). The pattern of shifts will be on a roster and the need to balance shift length across all individuals will mean that it will not be a case of the same driver on the same train each day of a given week, but much more likely a different driver each day

If the service falls apart to the degree that the driving shifts aren't workable, because in lots of duties one or more of the journeys are cancelled, operational managers have to allocate the drivers they have (who will be at work for their planned shift times) to the services that are running. It is extremely difficult to do this and achieve anything like the efficiency of the normal duties, especially against a background of delays and uncertainty. Even if they can do this two thirds as well as the software, then a third of the available driving time and hence service will be lost. It is this that is the key reason for the scale of the cancellations we are seeing.

The roster creates another problem. Many posters and passengers have suggested a set of planned cancellations and thus reduced but predictable services. In practice this is difficult because the driver on Monday has the incorrect Knowledge for his train and it has to be cancelled, but the driver on Tuesday knows the route so it runs. Monday's driver is allocated a different train on Tuesday and so it is that train that has to be cancelled instead.

How long it will take to overcome these issues to the point where the planned duties are viable remains to be seen. As a (seemingly yet another) Welwyn Garden City commuter, hopefully soon. This morning several previously 'disappeared' trains reappeared without warning, although not without issue as the two Peterborough to Horsham / Gatwick trains waiting drivers at Finsbury Park rather scuppered my attempt to get in earlier!

 

[Class465fan]

Sorry but what the hell does "delayed" mean?? Couldn't they at least find a more reasonable excuse other than "delayed"???

 

[Downthelane]

I was on that same train (as the earlier one was a secret cancellation).

Utter shambles.

What was staggering was that for 45 minutes not one member of GTR staff knew where the relief driver was. This blocked a line and platform (2) for all this time.

Then the exact same thing happened to the next core service, blocking platform 4!

Surely someone is actively managing drivers and the driver has a duty to report their whereabouts.

 

[bramling]

What was staggering was that for 45 minutes not one member of GTR staff knew where the relief driver was. This blocked a line and platform (2) for all this time.

Then the exact same thing happened to the next core service, blocking platform 4!

Surely someone is actively managing drivers and the driver has a duty to report their whereabouts.

The likelihood is control is overwhelmed by the current scale of disruption - remember it’s likely we’re talking about a small number of people having to keep an eye on everything, and no doubt the information coming out of on high is probably minimal.

 

[whitrope69]

Well, that's always been the case because the bus isn't heading into London - the bus service though slower has always been pretty good between Stevenage and Hatfield.



And if he had what would that have achieved? This is the kind of dumb grandstanding I get really fed up with - the whole "somebody should resign" mantra - it doesn't change anything, it won't magically mean the timetable gets reverted or anything like it - the timetable will be made to work over the coming weeks that's the basic fact people need to get their head around, because a wholesale change has ramifications elsewhere.

The "symbolic" resignations don't fix anything - and until it's clear where the failure was and how it happened, calling for resignations is pretty pointless.

Its called accountability.

 

[gingerheid]

Well.

Many different shades of unprettiness happening on GN at the moment...

 

[47421]

" Many different shades of unprettiness happening on GN at the moment..."

Yep, 4 hour gap southbound at Huntingdon today 1011 (20L) - 1411 (8L). Huntingdon of course had 2TPH until 20 May. Horton has to go. Totally untenable position. I saw an MP reporting that Grayling said Horton had met Grayling a few weeks ago and Horton personally assured him that everything was ready. What a sorry business. What if this was something important, eg a military campaign, think Horton would still be in charge?

 

[sefton]

And six out of eight trains heading north to Peterborough this afternoon cancelled.

It is getting worse not better.

Ah well, another days free travel. I joked with the ticket office staff that there was no point selling me a ticket as they would only be giving the money back.

 

[bramling]

" Many different shades of unprettiness happening on GN at the moment..."

Yep, 4 hour gap southbound at Huntingdon today 1011 (20L) - 1411 (8L). Huntingdon of course had 2TPH until 20 May. Horton has to go. Totally untenable position. I saw an MP reporting that Grayling said Horton had met Grayling a few weeks ago and Horton personally assured him that everything was ready. What a sorry business. What if this was something important, eg a military campaign, think Horton would still be in charge?

Sadly there was a time when running a railway was something important. Not running the advertised timetable should not be considered in any way acceptable- it’s the whole point of a railway.

As for Horton, I think many people would probably be pleased to see the back of Horton, GTR and anyone else involved in this shambles. Any promise of improvement is hollow - these incompetents simply can’t be trusted with either specification nor delivery. The legacy of this shambles is going to take a while to sort out, and it needs people who know what they’re doing.

 

[physics34]

The one thing that was warned about when all these plans were announced was that if you now cancel one service it affects TWO sets of passengers. A double whammy.

But hey 'thats railplan 20/20!'.

 

[sefton]

And to top off a great day the perfect customer service of keeping the doors closed on the 16.36 to Peterborough from 16.10 until 16.50 when the driver finally arrived.

 

[FOH]

Just had a quick look at the London Bridge deparure boards. It’s not looking too bad with only 5 cancellations northbound although interestingly they’re all to BedPan destinations

 

[ComUtoR]

...was that if you now cancel one service it affects TWO sets of passengers.

Or when you run a service that requires three Drivers and one doesn't turn up...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

GB stuffed (which I observed) by fast to slow diversions after 1115 Hadley Wood to Hatfield , and then with an RLU 8 car 700 that failed clear of Shepreth Junction on the down ......awful lot of stock in Hornsey and Welwyn - even if it was off peak when I went by.

Anyone thinking of West Anglia - another one I walked into - where a points failure at Tottenham caused diversions via Stratford and Lea Bridge !

 

[Abpj17]

Another example of poor information sharing/disdain for staff....

One of the current significant frustrations is that the evening/late all stations from London to Bedford are now no longer all stations - they don't call at Leagrave, Flitwick or Harlington. And that means there can be huge gaps in services to these stations because of the cancellations. There have been instances of two hour gaps which is unacceptable given the service up to the timetable change was pretty much every 15 minutes until well into the small hours.

However, there was a minor miracle when one of these 'not really all stations' trains was converted to stop at the three stations to fill one of these huge gaps. The station boards and online tools were updated (I got on a Blackfriars and just crossed my fingers to be fair).

However...no one had actually told the driver. So no onboard announcement, passengers on the train didn't know it would be stopping. A passenger at St A asked the driver who then 'double checked' with control...and was then told about the change.

Heaven knows how that was going to turn out if he still hadn't found at by the time he left Luton about the change to the stopping pattern!!

....
In GTR’s case, the process of introducing the new timetable was overseen for the last 2 years by an Industry Readiness Board, made up of Network Rail, ORR and the train operating companies and an Independent Assurance Panel.

...is really interesting too. Should DfT have been on the readiness board for such a major change, or do they leave it all to ORR?

Who are the independent assurance panel? Are any users/user groups represented (which would be sensible)?

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/27731/s22-gtr-14th-sa-dec-letter.pdf came up on google and is interesting reading too (ORR, GTR, NR exchange)

 

[otomous]

Same on the the Southern side, as a driver it pays for me to check what the departure board is saying!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Another example of poor information sharing/disdain for staff....

One of the current significant frustrations is that the evening/late all stations from London to Bedford are now no longer all stations - they don't call at Leagrave, Flitwick or Harlington. And that means there can be huge gaps in services to these stations because of the cancellations. There have been instances of two hour gaps which is unacceptable given the service up to the timetable change was pretty much every 15 minutes until well into the small hours.

However, there was a minor miracle when one of these 'not really all stations' trains was converted to stop at the three stations to fill one of these huge gaps. The station boards and online tools were updated (I got on a Blackfriars and just crossed my fingers to be fair).

However...no one had actually told the driver. So no onboard announcement, passengers on the train didn't know it would be stopping. A passenger at St A asked the driver who then 'double checked' with control...and was then told about the change.

Heaven knows how that was going to turn out if he still hadn't found at by the time he left Luton about the change to the stopping pattern!!



...is really interesting too. Should DfT have been on the readiness board for such a major change, or do they leave it all to ORR?

Who are the independent assurance panel? Are any users/user groups represented (which would be sensible)?

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/27731/s22-gtr-14th-sa-dec-letter.pdf came up on google and is interesting reading too (ORR, GTR, NR exchange)

The ORR , in my experience , keep well away from day to day matters , preferring to keep an isolated stance as they of course approve, (or otherwise) - Track Access agreements etc. They do engage in pan industry discussions as "observers" , - previous staff would take an off the record pragmatic stance , and use their inputs delicately. I have much experience of this in the past.

Regrettably - the ORR old school pool has now (and I may be wrong , but do not think so) , dried up through retirements , much akin to a well known team based near Marsham Street.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Sorry if I have missed it somewhere on this thread but can anybody clarify exactly who/which organisations were on the 'Readiness Board'. Apart from Chris Gibb some trade magazine references have said that he was assisted by Chris Green. The NAO report of last autumn doesn't seem to list the sederunt.

When a board was first mentioned, back in the October 2016 Modern Railways there was mention of a 'passenger representative'. How did that go?

 

[MML]

Passing Cricklewood sidings this evening, I counted 12 x 700's parked at 1800. These sidings are normally empty of stock during the peak of rush hour. So obviously, there are insufficient drivers with route knowledge to perform the full timetable.

Noticed a gap of 20 minutes on southbound services through the core which is most unusual at this time of day. And this gap did not include 2 services to Rainham and Horsham which were also shown as cancelled. Platforms weren't particularly overcrowded, it's almost as if people have given up trying to commute.

I did notice a train for Peterborough emerge from the sidings south of Gatwick airport. It crawled into platform 2, but the service was missing from the station screens altogether.