Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[sprunt]

We can play the 'what if...' game all day and this entire debate is about 'what if..' type scenarios. You will always need to pass a Driver somewhere or another for various reasons. Not forgetting a big reason why we pass to some locations is the lack of route knowledge with the other Driver.

Thing is, all the other TOCs seem to manage to have the drivers in the right place to drive the trains. Why is it only GTR for whom it's such a major, crippling logistical issue?

 

[ComUtoR]

Thing is, all the other TOCs seem to manage to have the drivers in the right place to drive the trains. Why is it only GTR for whom it's such a major, crippling logistical issue?

Which isn't true. My TOC suffers the same issues and we are allowed to pass on the tube. Other Drivers I speak to at other TOCs also have the same issues. Passing Drivers getting stuck is a well known and regular occurrence across the network.

 

[Dunnyrail]

Indeed to the average passenger seeing information stating that First Class is at the front of the train will presume that is the case and any other First Class sections of the train will be declassified.

Under First Capital Connect, they gave out information especially on the Thameslink route stating exactly First Class is ie Front and Rear, Middle etc so yes I agree with @sefton that GTR are mostly certainly in the wrong here.

If other TOCs can do this then GTR should be able do or get someone in who can actually do the job....

With regard to the issue about first class. I saw a lady at a Station wandering up and down the Train as each coach said “First” and she did not have a First Class Ticket. Was in the days when Trains were labelled “First Capital Connect” so one can see how confusion will apply to people that are not regular savey Travellers with revised First Deating depending upon direction of travel and train Type. First class should be first class whatever.

 

[DaveN]

I find it amazing that they've done/ are doing just about everything they possibly can (short of actually building some new cross London track) to try to reduce dwell times and increase reliability in the core to support 24tph (including wider doors, fewer seats, Automatic Train Operation, Traffic Management System, increasing the turnaround times at Bedford, platform humps, lots of training of platform staff, moving the pathing time to before the core etc) and then still have the risks of routinely changing drivers in London !
I appreciate that not doing so may require more drivers but even so....

 

[ComUtoR]

I appreciate that not doing so may require more drivers but even so....

Nail, head.

Which is something people keep forgetting. A large part of the inefficiencies in a roster or diagram is that there is lack of cover/spare/as required and a lack of Drivers. You could resolve this by having Drivers at either end so that there is no need to pass as that portion would have a Driver sitting there waiting for the unit or stays with the unit and changes ends rather than being needed elsewhere for a different service. Of course there is more to the complexities of diagramming and rostering.

Good luck trying to get a TOC to have a reasonable staffing level. Remind me again what Charles Horton said about when the took over the franchise ......

 

[Hearadh]

Please explain further; Why are the drivers reluctant to use the tube and why do they need TFL to allow them to travel for free.

Either GTR has some arrangement with TFL to allow the drivers to travel, so they are not travelling for "free" but under an agreement and the drivers should not have the option of whether to use the tube or not, or GTR is asking their employees to try to blag a free ride which they know they are not entitled to.

If it is the latter, is GTR so mean and stupid that it is not prepared to come to an arrangement with TFL, financial or otherwise, but is risking its trains being delayed and is actively inciting its employees to commit a criminal act.

It is my understanding that staff travel (including retired staff) is permitted between KGX and FPK on the Victoria Line. This section of the Victoria Line being a designated interavailable route which is, no doubt, a legacy from the days of services via York Way thence the widened lines to Moorgate. Incidentally, KGX to MOG ia also an interavailable route

 

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[philjo]

I was travelling to work in Cambridge later than normal today after a trip to the dentist.
I got to the station around 08:30 to discover that I would have a 50 minute wait for the next train - it hadn't occurred to me that there was a 60 minute gap in the stoppers in that hour (in what is still the morning peak) and of course the next one from Brighton was 6 minutes late. Previously there was always a train approx every half-hour.

 

[sefton]

I won’t take the tube out of principal, plus the management wouldn’t dare ask me to!

Scared of the dark? Tunnels? Zombies?

 

[387star]

I was travelling to work in Cambridge later than normal today after a trip to the dentist.
I got to the station around 08:30 to discover that I would have a 50 minute wait for the next train - it hadn't occurred to me that there was a 60 minute gap in the stoppers in that hour (in what is still the morning peak) and of course the next one from Brighton was 6 minutes late. Previously there was always a train approx every half-hour.

Cambridge to Brighton was due to double in frequency come December but that's now postponed
Likewise the two a day extra peak littlehamptons which is surprising

 

[387star]

Scared of the dark? Tunnels? Zombies?

Victoria Line is a sauna

 

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[Aictos]

Victoria Line is a sauna

No worse then the Northern line now that really is a sauna!

 

[Hearadh]

It is an interavailable route WITH a valid ticket, but I’m yet to have anyone from GTR or TfL confirm my staff pass is valid.

I won’t take the tube out of principal, plus the management wouldn’t dare ask me to!

Principles aside; if the management does not provide you with necessary documentation to travel it's a no travel situation.

 

[bramling]

I was travelling to work in Cambridge later than normal today after a trip to the dentist.
I got to the station around 08:30 to discover that I would have a 50 minute wait for the next train - it hadn't occurred to me that there was a 60 minute gap in the stoppers in that hour (in what is still the morning peak) and of course the next one from Brighton was 6 minutes late. Previously there was always a train approx every half-hour.

Another strange recovery decision last night.

21:21 KX-Cambridge was about 20 late departing, not sure of the reason. That train was then run non-stop to Stevenage, with additional stops added to the 21:54 KX-Letchworth, at Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City and Welwyn North.

Quite bizarre, as apart from delaying the latter by 15 minutes, few would have waited at King's Cross for over half an hour when they had the option to use LU to Highbury and use the 313 services, this covering everyone except Welwyn North users. Meanwhile the alteration was fairly useless for people making local journeys as the main non-London flow at that time of night not catered for by the 313 services is to Stevenage (especially Hatfield and Welwyn to Stevenage), which *wasn't* added as an extra stop. Needless to say hardly anyone boarded or alighted at any of the extra stops, so the net result was simply to impose a 15-minute delay, made worse as naturally the train went to the bottom of the PPM queue so sat for ages at Digswell.

GTR's control are simply clueless.

On the plus side it was a strange retro feeling to be on 2x365 running the old stopping pattern, except Stevenage of course!

 

[hooverboy]

It is an interavailable route WITH a valid ticket, but I’m yet to have anyone from GTR or TfL confirm my staff pass is valid.

I won’t take the tube out of principal, plus the management wouldn’t dare ask me to!

so why is there not a gentlemans agreement that those travelling "on pass" are allowed to get to and from their place of work ,irrespective of TOC?
surely network rail,as a fully national entity has this ability to move people to where they are required?

 

[gingerheid]

Today isn't looking pleasant; STP - CBG: disaster. LST - CBG: disaster too. Thank the lord for the good old KGX fasts...

 

[hooverboy]

Principles aside; if the management does not provide you with necessary documentation to travel it's a no travel situation.

therein lies the problem.

at management level,there needs to be an understanding that passporting rights is a necessity.
needs to be properly conveyed to revenue enforcement and barrier staff.

 

[hooverboy]

therein lies the problem.

at management level,there needs to be an understanding that passporting rights is a necessity.
needs to be properly conveyed to revenue enforcement and barrier staff.

it really isn't rocket science.

 

[notverydeep]

I observed an interesting incident at Finsbury Park last night, 2B45 1925 Moorgate to Hertford North was being delayed at Bowes Park as a passenger had been taken ill on board just before 20:00. Nothing particularly unusual, but as I arrived at Finsbury Park, 9J62 1855 Horsham to Peterborough entered the platform and the station staff were advising (including on the platform PA) passengers for any station on the Hertford loop to take this to Stevenage and change for the service from there back to their Hertford Loop destination.

This struck me immediately as unbelievably bad advice! 9J62 arrives at Stevenage at 20:43 and would then have been a 45 minute wait for the 21:28 train to the Hertford loop. This means that a passenger travelling to (say) Palmers Green would not arrive until 22:10 – an hour and three quarters later! This is despite the alternative Piccadilly line / bus combination taking less than 30 minutes according to the Journey Planner. Other than Watton at Stone, all the other stations could be reached significantly more quickly by combinations of the Piccadilly line and bus – even Cuffley and Bayford, or Victoria line and Greater Anglia.

At this point, 2F50 2010 Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford North arrived alongside, which the staff were announcing as nonstop Alexandra Palace to Stevenage. This would be the diagram that formed the 21:28 departure back. Inevitably of course, the incident cleared prior to 2F50 arriving at Alexandra Palace and it ran to Hertford North as booked, although by then 15 minutes late and it ended up being cancelled to / from Stevenage, leaving anyone who had taken the original advice to (presumably) be put in taxis…

 

[bramling]

so why is there not a gentlemans agreement that those travelling "on pass" are allowed to get to and from their place of work ,irrespective of TOC?
surely network rail,as a fully national entity has this ability to move people to where they are required?

Most railway staff are quite happy to let other railway staff travel for free anyway, especially whilst at work. I've even been "told off" for buying a ticket on Metrolink and Tyne & Wear Metro!

I guess in this case the issue may be that it's LU, and *some* LU staff can be reticent to let people through the gates.

 

[WeGoAgain]

.

This struck me immediately as unbelievably bad advice! 9J62 arrives at Stevenage at 20:43 and would then have been a 45 minute wait for the 21:28 train to the Hertford loop. This means that a passenger travelling to (say) Palmers Green would not arrive until 22:10 – an hour and three quarters later! This is despite the alternative Piccadilly line / bus combination taking less than 30 minutes according to the Journey Planner. Other than Watton at Stone, all the other stations could be reached significantly more quickly by combinations of the Piccadilly line and bus – even Cuffley and Bayford, or Victoria line and Greater Anglia.

The problem with this is, it's assumed all passengers had the travel tickets/passes to use the alternative methods. It's also assumed that the person on the PA knew of these alternatives/was able to do the calculations.
I doubt there was a 'one size fits all' announcement that would have catered perfectly for everybody.

With the announcement made, the announcer would have presumed that (as said passengers were on the platform), those passengers had the ticket rights to travel on GN/TL (from FPK northbound to Stevenage) and get a GN service back without needing to worry about ticket acceptance etc.

 

[sprunt]

With the announcement made, the announcer would have presumed that (as said passengers were on the platform), those passengers had the ticket rights to travel on GN/TL (from FPK northbound to Stevenage) and get a GN service back without needing to worry about ticket acceptance etc.

I think a brief "Passengers using Oyster or contactless can travel via the Piccadilly line and bus to most stations we serve. For further details speak to TfL staff." would be reasonable. Then, as with most things GTR, it would be a question of training.

 

[Hadders]

The core looks like a bit of a disaster tonight. Several cancellations and late running.

Thankfully i’m On the 2106 ‘pullman’ from Kings Cross which has called additionally at Finsbury Park due to the disruption.

 

[Taunton]

so why is there not a gentlemans agreement that those travelling "on pass" are allowed to get to and from their place of work ,irrespective of TOC?

The opposite also applies. The Kentish Town serious stranding incident of a few years ago had the train initially stuck, becoming increasingly packed, at the St Pancras platform in the evening peak. The fitter was based at Kentish Town. They were not rushed down to the breakdown by taxi but sent to walk over to the Underground station and get the Northern Line to Kings Cross, presumably to save a few pennies. By the time they got to St Pancras the train had been sent on its way, with unfortunate results a few minutes (and hours) later.

Paragraph 29 in the RAIB report.

 

[WeGoAgain]

I think a brief "Passengers using Oyster or contactless can travel via the Piccadilly line and bus to most stations we serve. For further details speak to TfL staff." would be reasonable. Then, as with most things GTR, it would be a question of training.

Fair point as long as the member of staff in question was aware of/thought about this.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The core looks like a bit of a disaster tonight. Several cancellations and late running.

Thankfully i’m On the 2106 ‘pullman’ from Kings Cross which has called additionally at Finsbury Park due to the disruption.

On the Midland side it was seriously bad (a sick passenger , a unit failure and another unit with tree debris in the pantograph well) ..2009 off Blackfriars was about the only offering north - very busy all stations trains - a good number changed at SAC in hope of anything towards Bedford , - to find a train due in about 30 mins. One has to feel sorry on a miserable early winter evening.....

 

[bramling]

On the Midland side it was seriously bad (a sick passenger , a unit failure and another unit with tree debris in the pantograph well) ..2009 off Blackfriars was about the only offering north - very busy all stations trains - a good number changed at SAC in hope of anything towards Bedford , - to find a train due in about 30 mins. One has to feel sorry on a miserable early winter evening.....

Well I had a lovely journey home on a pair of 365s out of KX, arrived home right time for once as all the Thameslink services that normally get in the way were either cancelled or very late so out the way.

That’s pretty much the only opportunity to get home on time nowadays, normally one or other Thameslink ex the core gets in the way and causes a delay at either Finsbury Park, Welwyn or Hitchin. I really dread to think what will happen when it increases to 6tph from the core.

It’s noticeable how many of the ShamedLink/ evening down services run rather empty on the GN side, so clearly people are giving them a wide berth where they can in preference to the 365 or 387 services. Clearly users have pushed to get the fast Cambridge services calling at Letchworth in the evenings, which is happening from next month, presumably for the same reason that they’re finding the Thameslink service too unreliable.

 

[jon0844]

Bit of a mess on the ECML this evening with a fire* on a 313 at Palmers Green (requiring full evacuation) and then a train just before the evening peak having the fire alarm activated, which resulted in it being terminated at Finsbury Park.

This must have made it fun, especially with trains being diverted from the Hertford Loop to serve the ECML instead (no idea how many that would be at that time).

* A compressor, so not inside the carriage.

 

[greatkingrat]

The opposite also applies. The Kentish Town serious stranding incident of a few years ago had the train initially stuck, becoming increasingly packed, at the St Pancras platform in the evening peak. The fitter was based at Kentish Town. They were not rushed down to the breakdown by taxi but sent to walk over to the Underground station and get the Northern Line to Kings Cross, presumably to save a few pennies. By the time they got to St Pancras the train had been sent on its way, with unfortunate results a few minutes (and hours) later.

Paragraph 29 in the RAIB report.

It was the rush hour, so by the time you find a taxi and it works its way through the traffic, it would almost certainly have taken longer than the Northern Line.