Thameslink trains not stopping at East Croydon 10/01 (due to staff shortages)

[Skimpot flyer]

Mods, feel free to move this to Infrastructure & Stations if appropriate.

I noticed on RTT that Thameslink trains are not calling at East Croydon, even though they are passing through en route to Haywards Heath or Bedford.
For example https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C09785/2021-01-10/detailed

I gather there is a shortage of platform staff currently, due to the coronavirus situation.
Am I right in thinking that drivers of Class 700 units cannot self-dispatch at this station, hence the omission of calls at ECR?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Fairly large station to skip stop.

 

[_toommm_]

Mods, feel free to move this to Infrastructure & Stations if appropriate.

I noticed on RTT that Thameslink trains are not calling at East Croydon, even though they are passing through en route to Haywards Heath or Bedford.
For example https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C09785/2021-01-10/detailed

I gather there is a shortage of platform staff currently, due to the coronavirus situation.
Am I right in thinking that drivers of Class 700 units cannot self-dispatch at this station, hence the omission of calls at ECR?

Sounds about right:

There is a reduced service at East Croydon due to a shortage of station staff. This is expected until the end of the day.

Customer Advice

East Croydon station will have reduced station staff on the platforms for the remainder of the day. Because of this a reduced amount of trains will call at the station.

Service Updates

Check here for any disruptions to Thameslink train services affecting your journey.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

 

[kieron]

No trams, either, according to Transport for London.

TRAMLINK: From 2000 Saturday 9 and all day Sunday 10 January, no service between Wellesley Road / George Street and New Addington / Elmers End / Beckenham Junction, please use London Buses connections. East Croydon will not be served. Trams will operate from Wimbledon to Wellesley Road and from George Street to Wimbledon.

The buses are still running, though.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I gather there is a shortage of platform staff currently, due to the coronavirus situation.
Am I right in thinking that drivers of Class 700 units cannot self-dispatch at this station, hence the omission of calls at ECR?

Yup TLK drivers can't self despatch here despite they are authorised to do so at every station through the core. This is an anomaly that railway should fix but I believe its legacy from when GTR got DOO through on Southern that the larger stations run by Southern retained platform despatch eg Purley, Redhill, Three Bridges, Haywards Hth and Brighton have platform despatch for instance.

 

[Fincra5]

Yup TLK drivers can't self despatch here despite they are authorised to do so at every station through the core. This is an anomaly that railway should fix but I believe its legacy from when GTR got DOO through on Southern that the larger stations run by Southern retained platform despatch eg Purley, Redhill, Three Bridges, Haywards Hth and Brighton have platform despatch for instance.

There is no agreement for Self Dispatch for either TLK or SN at Manned Dispatch Stations. Its not really an anomaly, the stations are operated by SN not TLK (unlike the Core and Stations North of the River)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There is no agreement for Self Dispatch for either TLK or SN at Manned Dispatch Stations. Its not really an anomaly, the stations are operated by SN not TLK (unlike the Core and Stations North of the River)

I appreciate that but given platforms 4 and 5 at L.Bridge are double reverse curves with the highest passenger numbers to manage boarding and on the platform it must be practical to undertake it at any of the other stations on the Brighton Line. However, im surmising from your comment, as im not familiar with requirements, that train despatch is responsibility of the station operator and all trains calling have to comply with those arrangements.

 

[ComUtoR]

I appreciate that but given platforms 4 and 5 at L.Bridge are double reverse curves with the highest passenger numbers to manage boarding and on the platform it must be practical to undertake it at any of the other stations on the Brighton Line. However, im surmising from your comment, as im not familiar with requirements, that train despatch is responsibility of the station operator and all trains calling have to comply with those arrangements.

DOO dispatch also needs to adhere to various standards and requirements. It isn't as simple as who is operating the station.

 

[387star]

Yes Brighton Haywards Heath Three Bridges Horsham Gatwick Airport Redhill Purley East Croydon and Sutton all have platform dispatch staff although many are agency workers.

 

[Fincra5]

I appreciate that but given platforms 4 and 5 at L.Bridge are double reverse curves with the highest passenger numbers to manage boarding and on the platform it must be practical to undertake it at any of the other stations on the Brighton Line. However, im surmising from your comment, as im not familiar with requirements, that train despatch is responsibility of the station operator and all trains calling have to comply with those arrangements.

Those platforms at LBG also comply to the latest/ set parameters for DOO Despatch (in cab monitors), for example a certain Lighting Level.

For example, lighting levels on DOO Monitors can be dire at Gatwick, but it isn't an issue as the station is manned despatch using CD/RA...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Those platforms at LBG also comply to the latest/ set parameters for DOO Despatch (in cab monitors), for example a certain Lighting Level.

For example, lighting levels on DOO Monitors can be dire at Gatwick, but it isn't an issue as the station is manned despatch using CD/RA...

Lighting is relatively easy to fix I would suggest as my station is DOO and was converted to hi lux LEDs over a weekend before the 700's started running.

I suspect the DOO agreement with Southern drivers would need renegotiating if any further stations are converted is one reason and given GTR may have limited life on the mgt concession there not going to progress it. However, when the industry is challenged to reduce its cost base this would be an area that would have to be examined given the high prevalence of DOO working already in place and the cost and clear performance benefits that come from DOO.

 

[RichardKing]

However, when the industry is challenged to reduce its cost base this would be an area that would have to be examined given the high prevalence of DOO working already in place and the cost and clear performance benefits that come from DOO.

You'd still need qualified platform staff at the stations listed above for attachments/detachments though.

 

[Horizon22]

That must be a fairly serious staff shortage then - you would expect to be able to cover at least 1 or 2 of the islands even with reduced staff so at least some services could call. It may however have been less hassle to just let everything run fast.

Trains terminating and started there, so there were presumably people around to CD/RA?

 

[Fincra5]

Lighting is relatively easy to fix I would suggest as my station is DOO and was converted to hi lux LEDs over a weekend before the 700's started running.

I suspect the DOO agreement with Southern drivers would need renegotiating if any further stations are converted is one reason and given GTR may have limited life on the mgt concession there not going to progress it. However, when the industry is challenged to reduce its cost base this would be an area that would have to be examined given the high prevalence of DOO working already in place and the cost and clear performance benefits that come from DOO.

It is but it also costs money. That all comes from the DfT, and yes an agreement would need to be reached on the SN Side for Self-Despatch at the (current) manned stations. Tbh, I wouldn't like to self despatch from Croydon... can't see the back where all the passenger run onto the train.

 

[thelem]

That must be a fairly serious staff shortage then - you would expect to be able to cover at least 1 or 2 of the islands even with reduced staff so at least some services could call.

It sounds like the Southern services between London Bridge, East Croydon and Gatwick Airport were still calling at East Croydon, so the staff were presumably concentrating on these services.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That must be a fairly serious staff shortage then - you would expect to be able to cover at least 1 or 2 of the islands even with reduced staff so at least some services could call. It may however have been less hassle to just let everything run fast.

Trains terminating and started there, so there were presumably people around to CD/RA?

The terminators were diverted to West Croydon. I believe platforms 3 & 4 were closed, with everything else diverted 1/2 or 5/6

 

[Fenchurch SP]

1 and 2 were closed for engineering works so all the stopping trains used 5 or 6.

 

[yorkie]

There is no agreement for Self Dispatch for either TLK or SN at Manned Dispatch Stations. Its not really an anomaly, the stations are operated by SN not TLK (unlike the Core and Stations North of the River)

They are operated by GTR; the brand names are not operating names.

That doesn't preclude the possibility that any agreement is worded in a way that references these brand names or differentiates for any reason but I feel it's important to note that GTR is one operator with multiple brand names (in the same way that West Midlands Trains and Greater Anglia are)

 

[Surreytraveller]

They are operated by GTR; the brand names are not operating names.

That doesn't preclude the possibility that any agreement is worded in a way that references these brand names or differentiates for any reason but I feel it's important to note that GTR is one operator with multiple brand names (in the same way that West Midlands Trains and Greater Anglia are)

Thameslink and Southern operate different types of stock, the drivers are on different Terms & Conditions and have different union agreements, so for all intents and purposes are operated as different TOCs. And DOO operations will be different for each operator.
This is about operating procedures, not tickets

 

[yorkie]

Thameslink and Southern operate different types of stock, the drivers are on different Terms & Conditions and have different union agreements,

Yes, you have similar differences elsewhere within other TOCs (EMR, Northern, XC spring to mind)

so for all intents and purposes are operated as different TOCs.

Not really; no-one tries to argue EMR or Northern are different TOCs acting as one (even though they are fragmented in some ways)

And DOO operations will be different for each operator.

It's all one operator; yes they will be different for each brand/route as applicable to the agreements signed when those routes when over to DOO.

This is about operating procedures, not tickets

Operating procedures do vary between a single train operator, yes.

I am not disputing the fragmented nature of some train operators but I do think we need to be clear that GTR is a single entity and a single train operator, albeit one that is fragmented in some aspects.

 

[Fincra5]

Yes, you have similar differences elsewhere within other TOCs (EMR, Northern, XC spring to mind)


Not really; no-one tries to argue EMR or Northern are different TOCs acting as one (even though they are fragmented in some ways)


It's all one operator; yes they will be different for each brand/route as applicable to the agreements signed when those routes when over to DOO.


Operating procedures do vary between a single train operator, yes.

I am not disputing the fragmented nature of some train operators but I do think we need to be clear that GTR is a single entity and a single train operator, albeit one that is fragmented in some aspects.

GTR is a single entity correct but Drivers (etc) are on Different T&Cs to each "Brand". Having said that, when DOO was originally planned to be extended, it was Off the Brighton Mainline to Littlehampton, Horsham and East Grinstead only, where TLK services were planned to be extended to.

Basically there is no agreement "South of the River/ Thameslink Core (London Bridge)" where Self-Dispatch is normal at manned stations.